Why is Electrification in England progressing much slower ?

[Brubulus]

This is not necessarily the case. OLE is politically contentious for visual impact in many areas. However the inverse is certainly true - political will disappears if the costs are rising.

It's only particularly contentious if there isn't a real improvement in service (Wellingborough). GWML was an exception when it comes to visual impact, pretty much the only person who complained about the visual impact of Winderemere was Chris Grayling.

 

[zwk500]

It's only particularly contentious if there isn't a real improvement in service (Wellingborough). GWML was an exception when it comes to visual impact, pretty much the only person who complained about the visual impact of Winderemere was Chris Grayling.

It only needs one person (and for that to be the right person) for it to be contentious enough to send an MP scurrying.

 

[WAO]

There's a lot of electrification going on in England that the 2022 completion of 2.2km doesn't reflect. As well as considerable upgrading of the existing system on the ECML, the GE, and MML, the wires are gradually extending northwards towards Leicester and Sheffield, are reaching eastwards from Man Vic towards Stalybridge and westwards to Wigan. From York to Church Fenton already and then on to Huddersfield is firmly next, albeit with more to come through Standedge. GM is also beginning the stages to wire the Warrington CLC line and also to Rochdale from Miles Platting. There is also the promise of wires from Leeds to Bradford Interchange. Oxford is waiting for the new Botley Road bridge and the 5th platform.

We'd all like some big scheme announcements and better PR but the above is about as much as the industry can reasonably manage.

WAO

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Costs are only going to be realistic once there is the political will to do more than a one-time project. I can see the MML being comparatively affordable compared to other projects given the amount of work, especially if they get around to tendering the later phases as soon as it reaches Wigston.

NR still can't make the case to deliver projects and no wonder with the excruciating amount of time its taking do the tiddly jobs up to Stalybridge and Church Fenton the project overheads (no pun intended) are horrendous. In the same time BR wired up and resignalled Weaver Jcn to Motherwell. Yes i know only too well things are different now but id would have rather had the plant available today than what we had on ECML let alone HOPS but none of it is giving us the productivity improvements we need to drive costs down. The real bright point though is step change now available on clearances but how much of this is being recycled back into lowering estimates.

 

[Brubulus]

NR still can't make the case to deliver projects and no wonder with the excruciating amount of time its taking do the tiddly jobs up to Stalybridge and Church Fenton the project overheads (no pun intended) are horrendous. In the same time BR wired up and resignalled Weaver Jcn to Motherwell. Yes i know only too well things are different now but id would have rather had the plant available today than what we had on ECML let alone HOPS but none of it is giving us the productivity improvements we need to drive costs down. The real bright point though is step change now available on clearances but how much of this is being recycled back into lowering estimates.

I saw all the clearance work being done on the MML, seems like far too much bridge works given I do remember there being loading gauge works a few years ago so they should have put in clearances for electrification.

 

[geoffk]

4) Confidence in the supplier by the purchaser

When GWML style cost overruns, and Crossrail style delays, stop happening, then the taps will be turned on. HS2, MML and TRU are perfect opportunities to demonstrate that lessons have been learned.

Surely add 5) a rolling programme of works, allowing teams to move on to the next project instead of being disbanded and having to start from scratch next time. The Scots seem to understand this! It comes back to political will of course.

 

[Bald Rick]

I saw all the clearance work being done on the MML, seems like far too much bridge works given I do remember there being loading gauge works a few years ago so they should have put in clearances for electrification.

there haven’t been any ‘loading gauge’ works between Kettering and Wigston.

 

[Starmill]

There isn't exactly an enormous amount of room in the supply chain once the limited amounts already committed including the various renewals and upgrades, plus the much larger amounts needed for Scotland, Core Valley Lines and then HS2 are all accounted for. Realistically, it's only enough to add one or two medium sized projects or a collection of smaller ones. Of course they could put out work in such a way as to expand the supply chain but it's unlikely that option will be considered in England. Scotrail Alliance are already getting some contracts in first.

 

[Brubulus]

there haven’t been any ‘loading gauge’ works between Kettering and Wigston.

I had believed that most of the MML got cleared for W12 around 2014/2015 but if that didn't happen, I understand the need for bridge works.

 

[zwk500]

I had believed that most of the MML got cleared for W12 around 2014/2015 but if that didn't happen, I understand the need for bridge works.

Only between Wigston and Trent, I think. Basically to cover Peterborough to Birmingham and Peterborough to Castle Donnington.

 

[Mikey C]

The MML programme will take a few years. The logical thing is that the same team can continue onwards once they reach Sheffield, rather than it all grinding to a halt with a gap before the next set of work.

 

[zwk500]

The MML programme will take a few years. The logical thing is that the same team can continue onwards once they reach Sheffield, rather than it all grinding to a halt with a gap before the next set of work.

Let's hope a different government have gotten in before then, because I don't trust this lot to do the logical thing if you told them their seat depended on it!

 

[Bald Rick]

I had believed that most of the MML got cleared for W12 around 2014/2015 but if that didn't happen, I understand the need for bridge works.

Not Kettering to Wigston.

In any event, W12 clearance does not equal electrification clearance. W12 is about arched bridge corners; electrification is height.

 

[Wtloild]

Let's hope a different government have gotten in before then, because I don't trust this lot to do the logical thing if you told them their seat depended on it!

Labour's record on infrastructure was far from impressive either. Can't think of anything that wasn't a PFI scam.

Agree strongly with point 5, about having a rolling program of electrification, to keep the teams together & generate more skilled supply.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Costs are only going to be realistic once there is the political will to do more than a one-time project. I can see the MML being comparatively affordable compared to other projects given the amount of work, especially if they get around to tendering the later phases as soon as it reaches Wigston.

As I understand it, MML costs are still high, although not entirely due to OHLE costs - and even more so for TRU.
Total costs and timescale are more to do with what else Network Rail has to do or wants to do on the route (bridge replacement, embankment works, realignment, resignalling, station rebuilds etc).
For electrification Network Rail also has a regional frame agreement policy which means the incumbent (SPL I think on MML) gets first dibs on work in that region.
It all went haywire on the NW projects because the regional contractor (Balfour Beatty) didn't want to finish the job after the Chat Moss work (ie Manchester-Preston-Blackpool).
(BB had a huge portfolio of Crossrail work and now HS2 so they weren't penalised for their NW position).
Some of the competition has evaporated since NR cut back on its wiring projects.

 

[Class 170101]

about the same.

Edinburgh - Glasgow was rather higher than GWML when normalised.

Surely add 5) a rolling programme of works, allowing teams to move on to the next project instead of being disbanded and having to start from scratch next time. The Scots seem to understand this! It comes back to political will of course.

And yet in that case the Scots have seen fit it seems to carry on whilst Westminster has to decide to faff about why? What assurances have Scotland given that Westminster don't have / won't accept?

 

[Bald Rick]

And yet in that case the Scots have seen fit it seems to carry on whilst Westminster has to decide to faff about why? What assurances have Scotland given that Westminster don't have / won't accept?

A cynic might say that Scot Gov

a) is having to spend its Barnett formula money on something
b) does have a reputation for trying to show up Westminster / do the opposite of what Westminster is doing.


As it happens I do think what Scot Gov is doing on electrification is right - so far - but fairly soon they will run out of sensible projects. after what is committed already (EK, Barrhead, Dalmemy / Leven, Borders) there’s only Kilmarnock, Anniesland, Dundee both ways and Fife Circle that make sense in my view. After that they will get far, far better returns on decarbonisation spend elsewhere - not least on insulating homes, subsidising heat pumps, and EV charging Facilities.

 

[zwk500]

As it happens I do think what Scot Gov is doing on electrification is right - so far - but fairly soon they will run out of sensible projects. after what is committed already (EK, Barrhead, Dalmemy / Leven, Borders) there’s only Kilmarnock, Anniesland, Dundee both ways and Fife Circle that make sense in my view. After that they will get far, far better returns on decarbonisation spend elsewhere - not least on insulating homes, subsidising heat pumps, and EV charging Facilities.

Agree, but knowing the Scottish Government they'll still try and electrify up to Inverness both ways.

 

[Class 170101]

A cynic might say that Scot Gov

a) is having to spend its Barnett formula money on something
b) does have a reputation for trying to show up Westminster / do the opposite of what Westminster is doing.


As it happens I do think what Scot Gov is doing on electrification is right - so far - but fairly soon they will run out of sensible projects. after what is committed already (EK, Barrhead, Dalmemy / Leven, Borders) there’s only Kilmarnock, Anniesland, Dundee both ways and Fife Circle that make sense in my view. After that they will get far, far better returns on decarbonisation spend elsewhere - not least on insulating homes, subsidising heat pumps, and EV charging Facilities.

Interesting, but not to Inverness via Aberdeen or the Highland Main Line then? Would you wire to the WCML when you mean Kilmarnock or just to it from Barrhead?

Agree, but knowing the Scottish Government they'll still try and electrify up to Inverness both ways.

Personally I hope they will if its reasonably possible. However I see little value in doing Far North, Kyle and West Highland Lines nor to Stranraer.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

GM is also beginning the stages to wire the Warrington CLC line and also to Rochdale from Miles Platting.

That's the first I've heard of work on those projects.
Being top of GM's wish list doesn't automatically extract funding for Network Rail to do the job.
Though Lostock-Wigan did pop up from nowhere.

 

[Class 170101]

That's the first I've heard of work on those projects.
Being top of GM's wish list doesn't automatically extract funding for Network Rail to do the job.

Unless GM have funding to do it I suppose, however unlikely that seems to be. I've wondered in the past could the CLC be end fed from existing supplies from Liverpool and Manchester in the middle where the WCML crosses over so it doesn't need its own feeder station, the expensive (and long lead time) bit.

Though Lostock-Wigan did pop up from nowhere.

I thought this was part of the original NW Triangle scheme?

 

[zwk500]

Personally I hope they will if its reasonably possible. However I see little value in doing Far North, Kyle and West Highland Lines nor to Stranraer.

I see little value in going north of Perth. I can just about understand if they wanted to push the Dundee electrification up to Aberdeen, but the Highland "Main" Line is very much into the diminishing returns territory, IMHO.

 

[Richard Scott]

Let's hope a different government have gotten in before then, because I don't trust this lot to do the logical thing if you told them their seat depended on it!

Let's not. Previous Labour government managed next to no electrification in all their time in office.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I see little value in going north of Perth. I can just about understand if they wanted to push the Dundee electrification up to Aberdeen, but the Highland "Main" Line is very much into the diminishing returns territory, IMHO.

Politics. SEVEN cities which includes Inverness. Back to my number 3) again In post 4.

 

[Bald Rick]

Interesting, but not to Inverness via Aberdeen or the Highland Main Line then? Would you wire to the WCML when you mean Kilmarnock or just to it from Barrhead?

No, not to Inverness or Aberdeen. The former is well over 100 miles for 16 passenger and 6 freights a day; 3/4 of the passenger trains are 5 cars or fewer, and some of those freights run rarely. Aberdeen is 70 odd miles for many more services, and I do have more sympathy for that. But it will still be the best part of a billion quid - for that price you could do the entire suburban network from Birmingham Snow Hill which would be much more beneficial to the railway, many more passengers, and the environment.

Kilmarnock from Barrhead. Certainly not via Dumfries.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Let's not. Previous Labour government managed next to no electrification in all their time in office.

Indeed. There is an extant graph somewhere showing electrification over the last 100 years. It is massively greater under conservative governments. Roger Ford even called Margaret Thatcher “electrifier-in-chief”

 

[Class 170101]

No, not to Inverness or Aberdeen. The former is well over 100 miles for 16 passenger and 6 freights a day; 3/4 of the passenger trains are 5 cars or fewer, and some of those freights run rarely. Aberdeen is 70 odd miles for many more services, and I do have more sympathy for that. But it will still be the best part of a billion quid - for that price you could do the entire suburban network from Birmingham Snow Hill which would be much more beneficial to the railway, many more passengers, and the environment.

Fair enough about Birmingham just don't tell the Scots when they propose to do it that the UK Government disagrees and is going to use Section 35 to take that £1bn away and wire the Snow Hill lines instead

(PS I'm joking about Section 35 in case some don't notice BTW)

 

[Arkeeos]

3 things are needed for any project to start/continue/go quickly.

1) Time
2) Money
3) Political will

I suggest number 3 is most important. We have seen repeatedly, when there is necessity or political will, money can be found.

Of course, I know I am over-simplifying, but I like simple where possible.

Agreed, political will is the main reason, but this country has seemingly transcended the need for electrification, a few years ago hydrogen trains were going to be our saviour now its battery trains and discontinuous electrification that is going to be our saviour, I'm sure in the next 5 years its going to be perpetual motion powered trains or whatever. And we will have spent all our time dawdling with all this overly complex nonsense instead of just knuckling down and getting lines electrified.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I'm sure in the next 5 years it’s going to be perpetual motion powered trains or ……

…….Bionic Duckweed. I have even seen a suggestion of using liquid ammonia.

 

[Bald Rick]

…….Bionic Duckweed. I have even seen a suggestion of using liquid ammonia.

Yeah thats bonkers.

It’s going to be OLE or batteries (or both, obvs). Maybe a couple of short con rail extensions in conjunction with batteries. And possibly Hydrogen in some very, very niche cases to make some politicians feel worthy.