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Why is Electrification in England progressing much slower ?

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Nicholas Lewis

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A cynic might say that Scot Gov

a) is having to spend its Barnett formula money on something
b) does have a reputation for trying to show up Westminster / do the opposite of what Westminster is doing.


As it happens I do think what Scot Gov is doing on electrification is right - so far - but fairly soon they will run out of sensible projects. after what is committed already (EK, Barrhead, Dalmemy / Leven, Borders) there’s only Kilmarnock, Anniesland, Dundee both ways and Fife Circle that make sense in my view. After that they will get far, far better returns on decarbonisation spend elsewhere - not least on insulating homes, subsidising heat pumps, and EV charging Facilities.
Mind you if they got their renewable energy at cost they would be quids in but they are charged more per unit than anywhere in England due to the historical charging methodology that predates all the onshore wind that has been constructed but i agree with your views on decarbonisation.
 
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Brubulus

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Agree, but knowing the Scottish Government they'll still try and electrify up to Inverness both ways.
Both ways?? A Highland Main Line redoubling and electrification is likely (doing both at once should be cheaper and it will happen, for political reasons) but given there will need to be an independently powered fleet for the Far North and Kyle lines, using that fleet for Aberdeen trains seems likely as it will be a minimum investment project.
 

Annetts key

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Fair enough about Birmingham just don't tell the Scots when they propose to do it that the UK Government disagrees and is going to use Section 35 to take that £1bn away and wire the Snow Hill lines instead ;)

(PS I'm joking about Section 35 in case some don't notice BTW)
You are quite welcome to suggest the Scottish finish and extend the GWML OHL scheme ;)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Yeah thats bonkers.

It’s going to be OLE or batteries (or both, obvs). Maybe a couple of short con rail extensions in conjunction with batteries. And possibly Hydrogen in some very, very niche cases to make some politicians feel worthy.
What, no nuclear powered high speed sets? o_O
 

Brubulus

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No chance of redoubling the Highland, no chance at all. Why do you think it’s likely?
I'm more thinking a Cotswold line project to provide better resilience than full redoubling but I didn't make that clear, however significantly more double track is likely, even if solely for political purposes.
 

clc

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Regarding the economics of wiring the HML, Bill Reeve presented some figures demonstrating why full electrification of an unnamed trunk route would make economic sense due to the lower operating and maintenance costs - see from 19 minutes and again from around 37 minutes. He refused to reveal which route the analysis related to but presumably it was either the HML or Aberdeen- Central Belt?
 

zwk500

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Regarding the economics of wiring the HML, Bill Reeve presented some figures demonstrating why full electrification of an unnamed trunk route would make economic sense due to the lower operating and maintenance costs - see from 19 minutes and again from around 37 minutes. He refused to reveal which route the analysis related to but presumably it was either the HML or Aberdeen- Central Belt?
The critical point in the video is at 37:07, where he shows a table outlining the Cost per vehicle mile to operate each type of stock
DMU - £1.94/vehicle-mile
Battery EMU - £1.43/veh-mi
EMU - £1.21/veh-mi
Hydrogen - £2.26/veh-mi.
(No figure given for DMU/EMU bi-mode.)

So Battery EMUs are 50p cheaper than DMUs but only 20p more expensive than EMUs. Electrification costs between £1m-2.5m/STKm depending on the level of reconstruction required (According to a Rail Journal article talking about how electrification should be cheaper). The Highland line is c118 miles (190km). At a rough guess it's about one-third to two-fifths Double track., so let's go with the 33% option - 250STKm. That's between £250m-525m to electrify the line. Favourable estimate of £400m, considering the line would need re-signalling throughout.
For £400m saving with 73p/veh-mi (the difference between DMU and EMU, you need 547,945,205.5 vehicle miles. That's 4,643,603 Perth-Inverness trips by a single unit. If the highland had an hourly service from 0600-2200 seven days a week, that's 32 trips a day (both directions 16 services), for 224 trips a week. That's 20,730 weeks, or 400 years.

DISCLAIMER: I'm aware the electrification will not be expected to pay fully for itself but by the socio-economic benefits, and that these are back-of-a-napkin figures, so I could be wildly out. But I thought some actual numbers may be helpful.
 

zwk500

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A business case - outstanding . Or should I say, there is no business case.
Tbf, that's assuming all trains are single vehicles. The strength of the business case depends quite heavily on whether a 'vehicle' is a carriage or a unit for the purposes of a veh-mi. If its carriages, run 6 car trains and you get a return of 75 years or so.

Also, massive apology to the mods for the thread drift.
 

USRailFan

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You guys should consider joining the EU, I hear they give funding for infrastructure projects like this
 

Bald Rick

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however significantly more double track is likely, even if solely for political purposes.

it isn’t, I’m afraid.



Electrification costs between £1m-2.5m/STKm depending on the level of reconstruction required (According to a Rail Journal article talking about how electrification should be cheaper).

Good analysis!

Do the sums again, though, using £2.5m-£5m per stk.

The cheapest recent electrification in Scotland was the Shotts line. That was a little over £2m / stk, was a very simple job (twin track, very few complex structure) didn’t involve any feeder stations, and the money was spent 4-7 years ago, so you can add 25% minimum for construction inflation in that time.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I thought this was part of the original NW Triangle scheme?
I'm not so sure about that.
I don't remember it figuring specifically in the NW context, unlike the Windermere branch.
The original triangle was Chat Moss, Huyton-Springs Branch and Manchester-Preston, with Preston-Blackpool added later.
Victoria-Stalybridge became a 5th phase (previously, and now again, part of the TP project).
Guide Bridge-Stalybridge was another which crept out of the woodwork, having never been formally announced.
 

zwk500

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Good analysis!

Do the sums again, though, using £2.5m-£5m per stk.

The cheapest recent electrification in Scotland was the Shotts line. That was a little over £2m / stk, was a very simple job (twin track, very few complex structure) didn’t involve any feeder stations, and the money was spent 4-7 years ago, so you can add 25% minimum for construction inflation in that time.
I'm not going through all that again! :D
 

LNW-GW Joint

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You guys should consider joining the EU, I hear they give funding for infrastructure projects like this
The EU gave much less than 100% of the cost, and few UK projects met the EU criteria (which support either boosting poor economies or developing cross-border routes, especially freight - the TEN-T routes).
The UK government played devious anyway, and kept the EU contributions centrally - the project itself did not benefit.
Having said that, the South Wales Valleys electrification is being partially funded by the EU, from funds set aside when the UK was a member.
Wales and Scotland count as poor economies, while England doesn't (to overgeneralise).
London-Crewe-Holyhead-Dublin was a TEN-T route eligible for EU funds, but no longer.
So that was a possible source for electrification funds for Crewe-Holyhead down the drain.
 

Dr Day

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From a purely economic perspective - ie Benefit Cost Ratio - what is actually left in England, Scotland or Wales that actually stacks up in terms of the value of the faster journey time full OHLE power gives versus a modern nippy acceleration and braking diesel or hybrid vehicle?

I fully appreciate there are environmental arguments which form a big part of the wider case to electrify, but my understanding is that on many routes, eg Cardiff-Swansea, the line-speed is constrained by the twistiness of the route which doesn't change if you put wires up, ie the difference between say an 802 on electric or diesel isn't necessarily that great so you don't get much in the way of tangible time savings that translate into something that is more attractive to passengers to get them out of cars, which are increasingly electric-powered anyway. I also appreciate there are lower rolling stock maintenance costs, but these need to be netted off against ongoing infrastructure costs of the OHLE.

The answer to the OP may well simply reflect harsh economics, and Scotland and Wales (once the current committed schemes are complete) may struggle to keep up the current 'pace' of electrification.
 

zwk500

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From a purely economic perspective - ie Benefit Cost Ratio - what is actually left in England, Scotland or Wales that actually stacks up in terms of the value of the faster journey time full OHLE power gives versus a modern nippy acceleration and braking diesel or hybrid vehicle?
Fife circle, Bristol, Manchester suburban areas, Birmingham Snow Hill lines, for starters.
 

A0

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Such a shortsighted thing to do, eventually the railway will end up being electrified at double the cost it would take to electrify it as it’s being built

Well it's not - because there are dependencies on the Oxford area electrification, presumably for things like signalling or power supply.

To add all of that into EWRs scope would massively add to the time and cost of the project and not accrue significant benefits.

To have ensured the railway is fit for electrification in the future is absolutely the right thing to do when the dependency is on another project.
 

stuu

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From a purely economic perspective - ie Benefit Cost Ratio - what is actually left in England, Scotland or Wales that actually stacks up in terms of the value of the faster journey time full OHLE power gives versus a modern nippy acceleration and braking diesel or hybrid vehicle?
Electrification, or at least decarbonisation, has to happen in some way, so the way the BCR is calculated will have to change. Or the railway closes. That's the choice in the next couple of decades
 

Snow1964

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From a purely economic perspective - ie Benefit Cost Ratio - what is actually left in England, Scotland or Wales that actually stacks up in terms of the value of the faster journey time full OHLE power gives versus a modern nippy acceleration and braking diesel or hybrid vehicle?

I fully appreciate there are environmental arguments which form a big part of the wider case to electrify, but my understanding is that on many routes, eg Cardiff-Swansea, the line-speed is constrained by the twistiness of the route which doesn't change if you put wires up, ie the difference between say an 802 on electric or diesel isn't necessarily that great so you don't get much in the way of tangible time savings that translate into something that is more attractive to passengers to get them out of cars, which are increasingly electric-powered anyway. I also appreciate there are lower rolling stock maintenance costs, but these need to be netted off against ongoing infrastructure costs of the OHLE.

The answer to the OP may well simply reflect harsh economics, and Scotland and Wales (once the current committed schemes are complete) may struggle to keep up the current 'pace' of electrification.
Twisty routes are proportionally much better for electrification than running on diesel. It is because of constant braking and accelerating. The diesel tends to waste energy (as heat from friction disc brakes), whereas the electric train can use regeneration to store (or use elsewhere) the energy displaced when slowing.

It is quite rare to instal diesel engines that can produce enough power to keep up with an electric train, which inevitably means diesel trains tend to be slower. Technically electric trains can have very high power ratings for short bursts (the limiting factor being how hot you allow them to get from high current), hence why often get 5 minute, 1 hour and continuous power ratings.

The electric trains are simpler to maintain as no diesels to service, don't have to send them to places to fuel them, and even the brakes should last longer if regenerative braking exists.

But real savings come when have experienced in house teams installing on a rolling basis, never finishing, but just moving to another section of line, with senior staff able to vary specs (slightly move) say upto 3% of masts if problems are discovered. If start having consultants, dithering, start-stop schemes so disperse teams and then no experience next job, or having to go back later due to missed masts, costs fly up.

And we have stupidly over engineered masts for lines with top speed of 100mph or less, have you ever heard of a mast fall down, it is always bits hung of it. Was recently in Southern Italy and saw trucks delivering a standard single pole lattice mast, simple, did everything except gantry spans on 3+ track sections

photo of a train with lattice masts for illustration
 

zwk500

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Well it's not - because there are dependencies on the Oxford area electrification, presumably for things like signalling or power supply.

To add all of that into EWRs scope would massively add to the time and cost of the project and not accrue significant benefits.

To have ensured the railway is fit for electrification in the future is absolutely the right thing to do when the dependency is on another project.
But they haven't - any bridge that did not need rebuilding for W12 has been left as is even if it will need rebuilding for OLE later.
Electrification, or at least decarbonisation, has to happen in some way, so the way the BCR is calculated will have to change. Or the railway closes. That's the choice in the next couple of decades
I would expect the battery costs per km to come down *very* quickly in the next 5-10 years. I expect electrification costs to rise. Unless the BCR formula becomes 'JFDI' wholesale electrification is unlikely to happen.
 

A0

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But they haven't - any bridge that did not need rebuilding for W12 has been left as is even if it will need rebuilding for OLE later.

Apols - I thought I read upthread that the bridges etc *had* been rebuilt as part of the works.
 

snowball

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I'm not so sure about that.
I don't remember it figuring specifically in the NW context, unlike the Windermere branch.
The original triangle was Chat Moss, Huyton-Springs Branch and Manchester-Preston, with Preston-Blackpool added later.
Victoria-Stalybridge became a 5th phase (previously, and now again, part of the TP project).
Guide Bridge-Stalybridge was another which crept out of the woodwork, having never been formally announced.
My recollection is that Windermere was announced in a press release in December 2013 and Lostock-Wigan soon after, though I forget exactly when. If I get time I'll do some archaeology on the forum. The answer should be on here somewhere.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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But real savings come when have experienced in house teams installing on a rolling basis, never finishing, but just moving to another section of line, with senior staff able to vary specs (slightly move) say upto 3% of masts if problems are discovered. If start having consultants, dithering, start-stop schemes so disperse teams and then no experience next job, or having to go back later due to missed masts, costs fly up.

And we have stupidly over engineered masts for lines with top speed of 100mph or less, have you ever heard of a mast fall down, it is always bits hung of it. Was recently in Southern Italy and saw trucks delivering a standard single pole lattice mast, simple, did everything except gantry spans on 3+ track sections
Most railways use contractors for new build, electrification and signalling these days, even on the continent.
France's new Tours-Bordeaux LGV was largely funded and built by contractors and then leased to SNCF to run trains for a usage charge - a modern PFI.
A similar scheme also funded the Le Mans-Brittany LGV, with a mix of central, local and contractor funding.
Some of the same contractors (Vinci and Eiffage) are working on HS2.

I agree you don't see such heavy and ugly wiring schemes abroad.
Your picture was in 3kV DC territory too, which historically has heavier structures.
 

zwk500

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Apols - I thought I read upthread that the bridges etc *had* been rebuilt as part of the works.
I must admit I'm also slightly confused. AIUI the line has been rebuilt to W12, and any bridge that needed to be rebuilt for W12 was built big enough for OLE. However any existing structure that was W12 compliant was left alone, even if it doesn't fit OLE. I support the strategy as it gets the line open when any additional cost was a risk to approval, but it is mildly frustrating that within 10 years of opening we could see the line need to be rebuilt again for OLE.
I suspect EWR will wait until the Calvert feeder station for HS2 is in place before getting any wires, even if Oxford is finished some time before then.
 

BrianW

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Returning, however briefly, to the original question (!) 'Why is electrification in England progressing much slower?' the OP appends the NCE article which relates it to the 2050 target. Respondents recognise that 'straight line' progress of a regular number of km started/ completed per annum is nigh on impossible without a rolling programme with continuity of design and execution teams and political commitment including funding.

The TDNS https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-co...-Strategy-Interim-Programme-Business-Case.pdf gave pages of analysis and proposals, including 25kV/ 3rd rail/ Battery/ hydrogen choices. Since then Covid has upset projections and politics. Austerity/ investment?

The current UK government is claiming commitment to rail investment of which the largest commitment is to HS2 to Manchester (and Euston eventually); every cost and/or time 'overun' reduces the willingness to invest beyond that. I'm imagining monthly announcements of small schemes of 'improvements' like Cross-Cornwall and Bristol 'Metros' linked to Metro Mayors, mini government handouts for consultancy 'feasibility' reports and 'levelling up' photo-opportunities.
 

coppercapped

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I must admit I'm also slightly confused. AIUI the line has been rebuilt to W12, and any bridge that needed to be rebuilt for W12 was built big enough for OLE. However any existing structure that was W12 compliant was left alone, even if it doesn't fit OLE. I support the strategy as it gets the line open when any additional cost was a risk to approval, but it is mildly frustrating that within 10 years of opening we could see the line need to be rebuilt again for OLE.
I suspect EWR will wait until the Calvert feeder station for HS2 is in place before getting any wires, even if Oxford is finished some time before then.
I agree with the contents of this post with the exception of the bit about "the line need(ing) to be rebuilt again for OLE".

There are not many roads across Otmoor on the rebuilt section from Oxford to Bicester and this section has had level crossings replaced by bridges all of which meet electrification requirements. The track was lowered through Wolvercote tunnel so the only bridge that I am not sure about is First Turn in north Oxford but as it's a new bridge I'm sure that no changes will be necessary.

The distance from Bicester to Bletchley is only about 20 miles and I make the total number of overbridges (a quick count from Google Earth) to be about 15 or 16. Some of these have already been rebuilt so I would suggest that the number of remaining bridges that would need to be rebuilt for electrification is quite small, probably around six or eight.

The rest of the works have been done with electrification in mind - the earthworks meet modern specifications, signalling is already 50Hz immunised, the position of all the cable runs are known and space has been left for the overhead stanchions.

Electrification of this line will not be difficult or complex as long as the Oxford end can ride on the GW electrification and, if no expensive feeder stations are needed, quite economically. Taking Bald Rick's lower figures the wiring work should cost around £160 million at todays prices, say £200m. Plus, or course, half a dozen bridges (possibly).

Would it be it worth it? That is the question... (apologies to William S)
 

zwk500

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I agree with the contents of this post with the exception of the bit about "the line need(ing) to be rebuilt again for OLE".
Scale is one thing, but it will still need bridges doing. The very fact that people are pointing out that bridges have been left suggests the number to be rebuilt won't be 0.
Electrification of this line will not be difficult or complex as long as the Oxford end can ride on the GW electrification and, if no expensive feeder stations are needed, quite economically. Taking Bald Rick's lower figures the wiring work should cost around £160 million at todays prices, say £200m. Plus, or course, half a dozen bridges (possibly).
I think they will need the Calvert feeder to assist with power supply (I don't imagine that it could be fed solely from Oxford or MK in the event of trouble with one end), but certainly it won't need much doing to it.
Would it be it worth it? That is the question... (apologies to William S)
Personally, yes. Allowing LNR's electric fleet to work the line would be good for environmental and operational reasons at Bletchley. Especially if they can also wire the Marston Vale once they work out the plan for that.
 

Greybeard33

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My recollection is that Windermere was announced in a press release in December 2013 and Lostock-Wigan soon after, though I forget exactly when. If I get time I'll do some archaeology on the forum. The answer should be on here somewhere.
Yes Lostock - Wigan and Windermere were both add-on projects, not included in the North West Electrification Programme. But I believe both were "infrastructure assumptions" in the 2015 Arriva Rail North franchise agreement, assumed to be delivered in time for the December 2017 timetable change. The agreed Northern 319 and 331 fleet sizes assumed EMUs would be used for Wigan - Stalybridge and Manchester Airport - Windermere.

Guide Bridge to Stalybridge was included in Phase 5 of the NWEP, as detailed in the Network Rail CP5 Enhancements Delivery Plan. Phase 5 also included Ashburys West Junction to Philips Park Junction / Baguley Fold Junctions, but that link has not (yet) been resurrected.
 

snowball

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My recollection is that Windermere was announced in a press release in December 2013 and Lostock-Wigan soon after, though I forget exactly when. If I get time I'll do some archaeology on the forum. The answer should be on here somewhere.
Windermere was announced in Aug 2013 and Lostock-Wigan in Dec 2013.
 

bib

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The critical point in the video is at 37:07, where he shows a table outlining the Cost per vehicle mile to operate each type of stock
DMU - £1.94/vehicle-mile
Battery EMU - £1.43/veh-mi
EMU - £1.21/veh-mi
Hydrogen - £2.26/veh-mi.
(No figure given for DMU/EMU bi-mode.)

So Battery EMUs are 50p cheaper than DMUs but only 20p more expensive than EMUs. Electrification costs between £1m-2.5m/STKm depending on the level of reconstruction required (According to a Rail Journal article talking about how electrification should be cheaper). The Highland line is c118 miles (190km). At a rough guess it's about one-third to two-fifths Double track., so let's go with the 33% option - 250STKm. That's between £250m-525m to electrify the line. Favourable estimate of £400m, considering the line would need re-signalling throughout.
For £400m saving with 73p/veh-mi (the difference between DMU and EMU, you need 547,945,205.5 vehicle miles. That's 4,643,603 Perth-Inverness trips by a single unit. If the highland had an hourly service from 0600-2200 seven days a week, that's 32 trips a day (both directions 16 services), for 224 trips a week. That's 20,730 weeks, or 400 years.

DISCLAIMER: I'm aware the electrification will not be expected to pay fully for itself but by the socio-economic benefits, and that these are back-of-a-napkin figures, so I could be wildly out. But I thought some actual numbers may be helpful.
Depends what numbers you use, they don't seem to be totally consistent*. Using the alternative figures from the graph at 37:30 they think OPEX is reduced by about £15m p.a. as a result of electrification, which is 15/127=12% of the subsidy. Therefore, using your numbers, if it was £400m then the payback vs a do-nothing is 400/15= 26-27yrs. Then that's a political decision as to whether a 4%ROI , plus whatever social benefits/carbon price you may want to quantify, is the best way to spend your £400m. Obviously if it actually costs £800m then the case is much worse.

*They seem to have about £10m in fuel savings and £10m in rolling stock maintenance savings from the table at 37:30, not sure how that stacks up against the table at 37:07 where there's a 15p/mile saving from fuel costs and 56p/mile saving from maintenance costs, would seem to imply annual route mileages of 16-66m, more likely they calculated it a different way.

Although sort of returning to the original topic, as others have said, I think it's mostly a political choice. England seems to be mostly looking at new high speed lines/upgrades and the remaining mainline electrification rather than infill/local schemes. HS2/TRU/MML will add up to 100's of km of electrification, but obviously much less than if they'd just chucked the £90bn IRP budget at solely electrification. It would be interesting to compare the benefits of those two options.

If HS2 spending is £5bn/yr then I think that gives scotland about £500m/yr in Barnet consequentials for the next decade, which should more than allow Scotland to fund their planned electrification schemes if they want to spend it all on that.
According to transport scotland , from 2010-2019, "The Scottish Government has maintained a consistent policy of investment in electrification and in the last ten years in Scotland we have invested around £1 billion in some 441 (track) kilometres of electrification and associated infrastructure improvements"
Not sure if they really started in 2010 but that's roughly 44km/yr at a cost of £2.2m/stk. If they plan to do 1800 stk by 2035, that's maybe about £4bn, though they'll need to go a bit faster.
 
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