Almost nobody will buy the £15.30 single, so the expectation is much closer to half of £15.80.
If it's any more than 50% it's a stealth increase on already too expensive fares.
Almost nobody will buy the £15.30 single, so the expectation is much closer to half of £15.80.
Must be 15 years since we used those printersI used to fix the old Swecoin ticket machines, those ageing systems like Atos Tribute will breathe a sigh of relief I wonder if there will be an Oyster style tap in, tap out system, though I wonder about the risks of fraud or abuse any new system such as e tickets could be subject to. The Government have a poor track record when it comes to tech (looks at NHS Track&Trace)
I wonder if Mr Harper will use the excuse of the current strikes to end more franchises to help usher in GBR? Will existing OLRs (Operators of Last Resort) like LNER be the first to be part of GBR?
I strongly support the abolition of return tickets, even if it means I may need to pay more travelling in the evening peak. The savings made when I take the train out / coach back, or triangular journeys as mentioned before, are large enough. It also reduces the need to find loophole tickets / creative routing just because I don't use the exact same route out and back and travelling between the exact same points.
Perhaps you could tell us what you expect the new fares would be for London to Manchester and Derby to Sheffield, that would mean no-one pays more than present and is revenue neutral.Single-leg pricing is a huge improvement which actually does simplify things a lot. The only downside to the system itself is the loss of overnight break of journey, which actually could be solved by making singles valid for more than one day, but that won't happen of course. The big problem is in how the new fares will be set and what will happen to the restrictions.
I saw a few people mention the fares increase on routes without evening peak restriction on off-peak tickets where it is expected that those will gain a restriction. I see also a possibility for those flows to implement single-leg pricing in a revenue neutral way without people paying more (ignoring the people that currently use singles). Off-peak singles become half the price of the current off-peak return and keep the same restriction (no travel in morning peak). Anytime singles become current anytime return minus the new off-peak single fare. This will, in most cases, lead to the same fares as now with the same restrictions.
The absolute fare isn't always the only thing on which passengers make a decision to travel on. There is no explicit need to attract more passengers to the railway - increasing revenue with fewer passengers would also be a good outcome for the railway.I do understand British Rail is currently under economic pressure. But how is this policy going to attract more passengers to use the railway if many fares would increase?
Perhaps you could tell us what you expect the new fares would be for London to Manchester and Derby to Sheffield, that would mean no-one pays more than present and is revenue neutral.
Current London to Manchester fares:
Anytime Return £369.40
Off Peak Return £98.10
Anytime Single £184.70
Off Peak Single £68.60
Current Derby to Sheffield Fares:
Anytime Return £44.00
Anytime Day Return £24.90
Off Peak Return £24.70 (morning restrictions, no evening restrictions)
Off Peak Day Return £13.30 (morning restrictions, no evening restrictions)
Anytime Single £24.80
Off Peak Day Single £13.30 (morning restrictions, no evening restrictions)
The point is I highly doubt the new Off Peak Single between London and Manchester will be £49.05 or between Derby and Sheffield £6.65. That means there will be significant prive increases for a significant number of people, that is unacceptable.It is impossible for any of us to do that because the number of single vs return sales is not available to the public as it is commercial in confidence.
Fares have increased above inflation for several years on the basis that many people have no viable or better option. The Government and rail industry are happy for demand to be suppressed on the basis that they don't have to provide the sort of increase in capacity that would be required if rail fares were attractive. But that's a wider issue more suited for debate elsewhere.I do understand British Rail is currently under economic pressure. But how is this policy going to attract more passengers to use the railway if many fares would increase?
You're rightFares have increased above inflation for several years on the basis that many people have no viable or better option. The Government and rail industry are happy for demand to be suppressed on the basis that they don't have to provide the sort of increase in capacity that would be required if rail fares were attractive. But that's a wider issue more suited for debate elsewhere.
The absolute fare isn't always the only thing on which passengers make a decision to travel on. There is no explicit need to attract more passengers to the railway - increasing revenue with fewer passengers would also be a good outcome for the railway.
I am going to wait for details before analusing
Let's not forget that for every passenger who pays more, another may pay less.
Most of the dissention in this thread is the fear of off-peak travel becoming more expensive, but passengers who currently pay higher fares to travel in the morning peak, but travel back at an off peak time may pay less.
The story is not by any means only bad news.
In any case, at least when it comes to discretionary travel, the absolute fare isn’t the only concern but rather the fairness of the system.The absolute fare isn't always the only thing on which passengers make a decision to travel on. There is no explicit need to attract more passengers to the railway - increasing revenue with fewer passengers would also be a good outcome for the railway.
Let's not forget that for every passenger who pays more, another may pay less. Most of the dissention in this thread is the fear of off-peak travel becoming more expensive, but passengers who currently pay higher fares to travel in the morning peak, but travel back at an off peak time may pay less.
The story is not by any means only bad news.
I recall reading this rationale as a reason for the closeness in single vs return fares in the BR era.One point of note, from a govt-getting-revenue point of view... currently:
- Mr Chancer tries for a free ride but gets stopped on the way out, he buys the £4 return.
or
- Mr Chancer cannot be reached by the guard or doesn't pass a barrier, he travels out free.
Getting rid of Return tickets has to be one of the stupidest decisions that the railway has ever made. The railways of the UK have made some very stupid decisions over the years but i think this tops it as the worst of the worst. Almost all passengers that use trains make Return journeys. Almost everyone who travels by train does one journey from their origin to destination to go to work or to the shops or supermarket or visit someone or whatever reason and then makes one journey back to get back from their destination to their origin. Yes there a small amount of passengers who will make Single journeys for whatever reason but the amount of passengers who make Single journeys is tiny compared to those who make Return journeys.Story in the Telegraph today, not yet available online but it has made the front page (amongst the lettuce and the balloon):
Big news seems to be:
- GBR will still go ahead
- Single-leg pricing being rolled out across the network?
- Commitment to Project Oval and possible ending of CCST?
I don't think there's really much suggestion the Return fare will go with no reduction at all in the Single fare.I think there is very little chance of lowering the Single fares so most people will pay double what they pay now.
I take the train to go to work. A return ticket costs me £3.80, while a single is £3.20.
Does this mean there's a chance that I will now pay 2x£3.20=£6.40 (a +68% increase) for my commute?
I have no idea what will happen, but with the current government it will probably be an increase for nearly everyone. What I was trying to show was that it isn’t impossible to let everybody pay the same prices at the same times if off-peak returns don’t have evening restrictions and ignoring the small number of people who now buy singles. But in your first example the return is so expensive that it is impossible to do this. And your second example shows another problem which cannot be solved in a good way for everybody and I also haven’t a solution for.Perhaps you could tell us what you expect the new fares would be for London to Manchester and Derby to Sheffield, that would mean no-one pays more than present and is revenue neutral
This government certainly just made your gas bill cheaperI mean come on, when have THIS government made anything cheaper? But not to worry because they won't be in power for much longer anyway so I don't see this coming into effect anytime soon.
Your post complely ignores all those customers already buying two singles to make a return journey on Advance Tickets.Getting rid of Return tickets has to be one of the stupidest decisions that the railway has ever made. The railways of the UK have made some very stupid decisions over the years but i think this tops it as the worst of the worst. Almost all passengers that use trains make Return journeys. Almost everyone who travels by train does one journey from their origin to destination to go to work or to the shops or supermarket or visit someone or whatever reason and then makes one journey back to get back from their destination to their origin. Yes there a small amount of passengers who will make Single journeys for whatever reason but the amount of passengers who make Single journeys is tiny compared to those who make Return journeys.
My pet hate is these bus companies that have stopped selling Return tickets and force you to buy two Single tickets or a Day ticket when all you want is a Return ticket to make one Return journey. I specifically go out of my way to avoid such bus companies. So i am really dreading this nonsense being introduced to trains too.
Also by buying a Return you save a huge amount of money compared to buying two Single tickets. On the buses a Return is generally 1.5x the Single fare (so a £2.00 Single would be £3.00 Return etc) however on the railways Return tickets are normally just 10p more than a Single ticket. So on the railways you save a huge amount of money with Return tickets. For a random example on the railways a £20.80 Single can be £20.90 Return so only 10p more. But if they get rid of Return tickets we will certainly end up paying a huge increase in price. I think there is very little chance of lowering the Single fares so most people will pay double what they pay now. Even on the rare chance that they do lower the Single fares to be the same price then it will still be very annoying to have to purchase two Single tickets rather than a Return ticket.
The practise of offering Return tickets which give a significant discount over two Single tickets has been around for years and works perfectly. So why change it. If it is not broken why fix it. They are creating a problem out of something that works perfectly.
Our railways have been getting worse and worse every year since privatisation. Especially since the corona virus they have declined massively. Getting rid of Return tickets is just going to put people off travelling by train. More people will choose the car if they can not get a Return ticket.
Also what will happen with the Travelcard tickets from outside the zones? These are issued as one ticket which is a Return from wherever you are to the boundary and then a day Travelcard ticket? So for example you can buy a ticket from Salisbury or Lewes or Guildford or Dorking or Tonbridge etc to London Zones 1 to 6 so i can not think what will happen to these? If they get rid of Return tickets will they still keep these or will we be forced to buy three separate tickets (a single from our origin to the boundary plus a Travelcard plus a single from the boundary to our origin) instead of just one simple ticket?
To be fair, this year's rise is below inflation, so, for the first time in decades the real price of regulated train fares will fall this year.
I take the train to go to work. A return ticket costs me £3.80, while a single is £3.20.
Does this mean there's a chance that I will now pay 2x£3.20=£6.40 (a +68% increase) for my commute?