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Poor modern train toilets

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Christmas

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I've noticed that most, if not all modern stock has entirely unsuitable and poor quality train toilets. The PRM or disabled toilets in 170s and the newer ones fitted to the ScotRail 156s are particularly awful. From molded sinks that are so tiny that the inevitably cold water that is provided goes all over the floor, to soap dispensers that give a drip of soap and of course hand dryers that do no such thing. Why are the modern designs so bad?

Older BR stock had proper porcelain toilet bowls and porcelain sinks, but these modern sinks are plastic and stain easily. Most look absolutely filthy.

Train builders need to come up with a much better approach. Thoughts?
 
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AJDesiro

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Older BR stock had proper porcelain toilet bowls and porcelain sinks, but these modern sinks are plastic and stain easily. Most look absolutely filthy.
For toilet bowls, I’d imagine that the newer vacuum technology may cause them to smash, and even if not, they’re easier to vandalise, can you imagine if toilets went out of order because someone smashed the toilet? It wouldn’t look good, especially now that retention tanks are needed resulting in out of order toilets much more regularly.
 

Bletchleyite

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One of the standard disabled toilet modules makes it very hard for tall people because of the position of the pan close to the sink module; it has to be sat on sideways.
 

mpthomson

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For toilet bowls, I’d imagine that the newer vacuum technology may cause them to smash, and even if not, they’re easier to vandalise, can you imagine if toilets went out of order because someone smashed the toilet? It wouldn’t look good, especially now that retention tanks are needed resulting in out of order toilets much more regularly.
Porcelain toilet bowls are also significantly heavier, as well as being more vulnerable generally to chips and cracks, which makes them unhygienic as they can't be properly cleaned.
 

ainsworth74

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One of the standard disabled toilet modules makes it very hard for tall people because of the position of the pan close to the sink module; it has to be sat on sideways.
I believe that's a function of them being compliant with the relevant standards. You're supposed to be able to sit on a disabled toilet, do you business and then reach the handwashing facilities without needing to stand back up from the toilet. I agree it makes it a bit more uncomfortable but there is some method to the madness!

The Azuma/IET slim line toilets are annoying. The sink is probably a perfectly adequate size but the water is fed from such a great height that it of course spills everywhere! Why they couldn't put the outlet for the water about 15cm lower is beyond me! Also bring back paper handtowels! At least make it possible to dry my hands rather than having an asthmatic ant blowing on them like basically all train hand dryers do.
 

Bletchleyite

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I believe that's a function of them being compliant with the relevant standards. You're supposed to be able to sit on a disabled toilet, do you business and then reach the handwashing facilities without needing to stand back up from the toilet. I agree it makes it a bit more uncomfortable but there is some method to the madness!

I'd not say "uncomfortable" but "difficult to use if tall". I'm sure there must be a better design, particularly as this problem doesn't afflict all accessible cubicles, just one specific design of them. Thus I'd consider it poor design.
 

185

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but were other materials available to use? I cant believe that the object of choice would be a heavy porcelain toilet if other items were available!
Porcelain was used due to it being made to last, and still look new 50 years down the line. I don't think the older design engineers were worried about one or two extra pounds of weight on la bog.
 

DarloRich

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Porcelain was used due to it being made to last, and still look new 50 years down the line. I don't think the older design engineers were worried about one or two extra pounds of weight on la bog.
perhaps - but they might be today!
 

Thirteen

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It's no different to planes using metal and plastic for their toilets. More cost effective.
 

Purple Train

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I don't know how bad new stock's toilets are; they're always out of order when I try and use them.
 

Devonian

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For toilet bowls, I’d imagine that the newer vacuum technology may cause them to smash, and even if not, they’re easier to vandalise, can you imagine if toilets went out of order because someone smashed the toilet? It wouldn’t look good, especially now that retention tanks are needed resulting in out of order toilets much more regularly.
Vacuum WCs with china pans are in widespread in the shipping trade and can alo be found on railways overseas as well. The problem with smashed pans would be no worse than the problem with smashed pans on trains before vacuum WCs were introduced: and given the age of many of those, it does not seem to have been a great problem. They do, however, use more water which is likely to be the deciding factor.

Porcelain toilet bowls are also significantly heavier, as well as being more vulnerable generally to chips and cracks, which makes them unhygienic as they can't be properly cleaned.
The china used in WC pans is coated with 'vitreous china' to form a non-porous, glass-like surface: they are resistant to chipping and cracking in normal sanitary use, which is why they are the usual material for these products in everyday life.

As for weight, the relatively small size of washbasins and WC pans makes the weight insignificant in the grand scheme of a carriage, or even in relation to passenger luggage. The weight of a complete vacuum WC, not just the bowl, is likely to be roughly the same as a washdown WC pan: an Evac Compact vacuum WC is 18kg, a domestic wall-hung porcelain WC is typically 16 to 20kg. Aircraft use a central vacuum system which significantly reduces the weight per pan.

However...
Metal ones work fine for the purpose. It's other elements of design that aren't great.
Indeed: as long as the shape is suitable, stainless steel is a perfectly good material for a WC or washbasin, and many vacuum WCs are given an extra non-stick coating to reduce soiling further, which would be harder with porcelain.

The relative distance between WC and basin in accessible facilities is set by law, but poor angling of walls and poor design of integrated basins in combination with that regulation makes for awkward spaces that are harder for passengers to use in a particular design of accessible WC module that I keep finding on trains.

I have mentioned my dislike of integrated washbasin units on trains before, but repeat it here: my particular bugbear is the hiding of the tap spouts behind the mirror, high above the basin, whereas on continental trains and Eurostar the tap spouts are lower, separate and visible - like traditional taps - which makes them much easier to use than waving your hands blindly under the mirror and then trying to keep your hands stable in an invisible target area on a rocking train. And having to hold your arms horizontally to reach a spout deep under the mirror without being able to bend over the wasbasin, rather than bending your body over the basin and bending your arms slightly to hold your hands under a tap, is very awkward for tall people while trying to keep your balance on a moving floor.
 

L401CJF

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I've noticed on the new 197s if you try to dry your hands, the sensor for the hand drier is too close to the water sensor and you just end up getting wetter hands!
 

Mikey C

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I've got no major complaints, though the sliding doors on the 80x are surprisingly hard to open, requiring quite a lot of effort to slide.
 

Bletchleyite

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I've got no major complaints, though the sliding doors on the 80x are surprisingly hard to open, requiring quite a lot of effort to slide.

I massively prefer those (as also seen on Eurostars) because trying to squeeze past the door on non-sliding ones is awkward.

The 80x do have oddly awkward door handles though.
 

Mikey C

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I massively prefer those (as also seen on Eurostars) because trying to squeeze past the door on non-sliding ones is awkward.

The 80x do have oddly awkward door handles though.
I agree that sliding doors are better, but the amount of strength needed to open them was too much.
 

sharpinf

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GA 720s have a terrible position for the call for aid button such that adjusting a rucksack can knock them - have embarrassingly done it myself!
 

greyman42

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The Azuma/IET slim line toilets are annoying. The sink is probably a perfectly adequate size but the water is fed from such a great height that it of course spills everywhere! Why they couldn't put the outlet for the water about 15cm lower is beyond me! Also bring back paper handtowels! At least make it possible to dry my hands rather than having an asthmatic ant blowing on them like basically all train hand dryers do.
The Azuma/IET dryers are probably the best of any train hand dryers and do actually dry your hands. The worse i have come across is 156 hand dryers.

I've got no major complaints, though the sliding doors on the 80x are surprisingly hard to open, requiring quite a lot of effort to slide.
Yes, someone such as an elderly person might struggle with a 80x toilet door.
 

43172

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I'm not a massive fan of the standard ones on the 80x, others have mentioned the sliding door being heavy, but i find myself self doubting after locking it for fear of not shutting it enough and someone opening the door by accident. I also find it cramped even though i'm of average height and not broad, but it may just be due to the amount of black on the walls giving the impression of the walls being closer than it actually is.
 

antharro

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I use the SWML line regularly. When I first started out it was 442s, which had proper porcelain toilets, basins, soap dispensers and linen hand towels. This was eventually changed to a push button (start/stop) hand dryer, but it was a good quality one that dried your hands quickly. When the 444s took over, they had (have) metal vacuum toilets, motion-activated taps and a motion-activated hand dryer. The taps limescaled up and would often get as much water on you, the wall, the floor as on your hands, and the sensors on the hand dryers are often so badly adjusted you often have to have your hands right up against its grille to activate it, and it switches off after just a few seconds.

Actually thinking about it, that seems to be a thing in general for hand dryers - the ones at all my local Starbucks just as useless.

Not the worst I've ever used tho - I used the toilets on a GWR 150 (150001, I believe) when it was on the Basingstoke - Reading, and the hand dryer was pretty much just a noise making device. Same for the ones on SWR's 158 and 159s, but at least they have semi-decent taps.
 

RunRepeat

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I believe that's a function of them being compliant with the relevant standards. You're supposed to be able to sit on a disabled toilet, do you business and then reach the handwashing facilities without needing to stand back up from the toilet. I agree it makes it a bit more uncomfortable but there is some method to the madness!

The Azuma/IET slim line toilets are annoying. The sink is probably a perfectly adequate size but the water is fed from such a great height that it of course spills everywhere! Why they couldn't put the outlet for the water about 15cm lower is beyond me! Also bring back paper handtowels! At least make it possible to dry my hands rather than having an asthmatic ant blowing on them like basically all train hand dryers do.
Paper towels would be great, but there are various prohibitive reasons why they're not widely used. The cost of paper is through the roof and as a single use product is unsustainable. The units would require filling at turnaround and in transit putting pressure on an already time-poor process and the units would need a full redesign for waste disposal, as well as a lack of storage on many modern units. Add on top the paper detritus that would be left all over the place, it makes it a no go. But fully agree on asthmatic dryers resulting in the 'trouser dry' process being infinitely preferable!
 

physics34

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I have more of an issue with them not being discreet enough. How can u have seats directly outside the loo .... ive seen them in 150s, 321s and other stock. How embarrasing if you need a 'vocal'no.2. There should be a second door to separate.
 

RunRepeat

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I have more of an issue with them not being discreet enough. How can u have seats directly outside the loo .... ive seen them in 150s, 321s and other stock. How embarrasing if you need a 'vocal'no.2. There should be a second door to separate.
I recently read a Hitachi report on attitudes to public transport. Toilets were highlighted as an area of concern, many people are turned off from using them (particularly the accessible toilets) for two reasons; noise and the fear of the door opening while 'in use'.
 

Dave91131

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I recently read a Hitachi report on attitudes to public transport. Toilets were highlighted as an area of concern, many people are turned off from using them (particularly the accessible toilets) for two reasons; noise and the fear of the door opening while 'in use'.

I was on a GA 720 yesterday, and the sliding door on the accessible loo would not stay shut - luckily the poor woman who wanted to use the loo had yet to sit down to commence proceedings.

Personally I think the most functional if not the most upmarket on-train loo I've used in the last few years was on a SE 466 - manual "slam door", simple lock, wide enough door to easily get in and out (not PRM compliant obviously), enough water in the vacuum loo to keep the bowl clean, press button tap with decent water flow and temperature, and a slightly raised lip across the sink front to stop any water sloshing on to the floor. Oh and a wall mounted fairly powerful hand dryer (typical of restaurant loos).

Very decent IMO.
 

gabrielhj07

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I've noticed that most, if not all modern stock has entirely unsuitable and poor quality train toilets. The PRM or disabled toilets in 170s and the newer ones fitted to the ScotRail 156s are particularly awful. From molded sinks that are so tiny that the inevitably cold water that is provided goes all over the floor, to soap dispensers that give a drip of soap and of course hand dryers that do no such thing. Why are the modern designs so bad?

Older BR stock had proper porcelain toilet bowls and porcelain sinks, but these modern sinks are plastic and stain easily. Most look absolutely filthy.

Train builders need to come up with a much better approach. Thoughts?
I have to say I disagree with this as a blanket statement.

Many toilets on new stock, especially PRM ones, tend to be well stocked and clean. In my experience, the dirtier toilets are found on older & less often cleaned stock, (159s spring to mind).

Off the top of my head, 80Xs, MkVs, 195s, etc. are all quite decently presented.
 

RunRepeat

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I was on a GA 720 yesterday, and the sliding door on the accessible loo would not stay shut - luckily the poor woman who wanted to use the loo had yet to sit down to commence proceedings.

Personally I think the most functional if not the most upmarket on-train loo I've used in the last few years was on a SE 466 - manual "slam door", simple lock, wide enough door to easily get in and out (not PRM compliant obviously), enough water in the vacuum loo to keep the bowl clean, press button tap with decent water flow and temperature, and a slightly raised lip across the sink front to stop any water sloshing on to the floor. Oh and a wall mounted fairly powerful hand dryer (typical of restaurant loos).

Very decent IMO.
I can't remember if its the GA 720s or 745/755 that have the simple twist handle for lock/unlock in the non-PRM toilets. Very chunky and reassuring, even if the toilets themselves are tiny. The dryer in the Stadlers is almost useful, the 720 useless in the extreme.
 
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