Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[tbtc]

In fact it’s probably about time the whole Penicuik corridor was revisited again. The Penicuik network is both confusing in routes, and in frequencies. For me it could (and should) be simplified

What can really be done about Penicuik though?

There’s a need for Loanhead/ Bush/ Roslin to have some direct service to both Edinburgh and Penicuik, as well as a relatively fast service from Penicuik to Edinburgh (and a “turn up and go” frequent from the Park & Ride into the city centre)

You’ve also got the “reverse commuting” from areas out Edinburgh out to Bush in the morning and back at teatime (which the 47B handles)

The creation of the 141 seems to be a sneaky way of saving a vehicle by providing a Penicuik - Bush service each hour to allow the 15 to terminate at Bush

Any “solution” is either going to be quite complicated or mean some big cuts to existing links (or PVR increases)

I’m not against change (e.g. The fact that there’s a twenty minute 47 running alongside a fifteen/ thirty minute 37 causes some gaps and inefficiencies), i just can’t see how you can squeeze much more out of the existing number of vehicles

The old X15 from Penicuik to Prestonpans was true longest route at one point.

I also remember the old 44 route from Balerno to Pencaitland that must’ve been the longest as well at one point.

Not to forget the X66 from South Queensferry to Seaton Sands

 

[DunsBus]

What can really be done about Penicuik though?

There’s a need for Loanhead/ Bush/ Roslin to have some direct service to both Edinburgh and Penicuik, as well as a relatively fast service from Penicuik to Edinburgh (and a “turn up and go” frequent from the Park & Ride into the city centre)

You’ve also got the “reverse commuting” from areas out Edinburgh out to Bush in the morning and back at teatime (which the 47B handles)

The creation of the 141 seems to be a sneaky way of saving a vehicle by providing a Penicuik - Bush service each hour to allow the 15 to terminate at Bush

Any “solution” is either going to be quite complicated or mean some big cuts to existing links (or PVR increases)

I’m not against change (e.g. The fact that there’s a twenty minute 47 running alongside a fifteen/ thirty minute 37 causes some gaps and inefficiencies), i just can’t see how you can squeeze much more out of the existing number of vehicles



Not to forget the X66 from South Queensferry to Seaton Sands

The short-lived 63 from Seafield to Whitburn must be in within a shout as well.

 

[Bus9120UK]

This hasn't yet been mentioned - the BZL demo has moved to service 1. It is the 13:45 departure from Seafield.

 

[EdinRH]

The short-lived 63 from Seafield to Whitburn must be in within a shout as well.

Did the 63 run to Whitburn? I have a 1993 Lothian route map which lists the 63 as a Seafield to Livingston service.

The 9 from St Andrew Square to Armadale (also in that route map) would be another contender.

 

[DunsBus]

Did the 63 run to Whitburn? I have a 1993 Lothian route map which lists the 63 as a Seafield to Livingston service.

The 9 from St Andrew Square to Armadale (also in that route map) would be another contender.

It did, for a few months in autumn 1994. The Livingston part was withdrawn and the route extended to Whitburn via Bathgate and Birniehill.

Funny enough, I was also thinking about the 9.

 

[Lothianbus703]

I have been looking of pictures of Lothian buses demonstrator vehicles from over the years and have noticed a MAN Lions City CNG was trialed (it didnt go into service because the doors were on the wrong side and so was the driver and a few other important things), if the trial was a success or Lothian became interested would these of probably been bought instead of the 7900s and would they be better?

I know this question has no correct answer but I thought it would be a good thing to discuss as i don't think it has been before.


Source of information:

MAN Lion's City CNG demonstrator on Hanover Street. Didn't operate in service since the steering wheel is in the wrong place

Explore Goodwill City's 840 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

 

[computerSaysNo]

I'm trying to record what types of vehicles are usually used on each route on a typical day. This is what has been used today (Friday), can anyone confirm that this represents a typical weekday?

• 1 - 7900s
• 2 - Mostly 7900s with a few random deckers.
• 3 - B5TL/E400MMCs
• 4 - Mostly Ex-London B9TL/Gemini 2s (single-door) with a few other random deckers.
• 5 - Mostly Ex-London B9TL/Gemini 2s (single-door) with a few other random deckers.
• 7 - B5TL/Gemini 3s, mostly from 2016 batch.
• 8 - Mostly native B9TL/Gemini 2s from 2011 batch.
• 10 - Mostly native B9TL/Gemini 2s from 2011 batch and a few other random deckers.
• 11 - B8L/E400MMC-XLBs
• 12 - Some 7900s and some other random deckers.
• 14 - Mostly native B9TL/Gemini 2s with a few other random deckers.
• 15 - Some B5TL/Gemini 3s, mostly from the 2015 batch, and some other random deckers.
• 16 - B8L/E400MMC-XLBs
• 19 - Mostly B5TL/Gemini 3s from the 2014 batch, and some other random deckers.
• 21 - Mostly B5TL/E400MMCs and few other random deckers.
• 22 - A few B8L/E400MMC-XLBs and a few other random deckers.
• 23 - Some B5TL/Gemini 3s from the 2015 batch and some other random deckers.
• 24 - Mostly native B9TL/Gemini 2s from the 2011 batch and some other random deckers.
• 25 - Mostly B5TL/E400MMCs with some other random deckers.
• 26 - Mostly B5TL/Gemini 3s from the 2017 batch with a few other random deckers.
• 27 - Mostly B5TL/Gemini 3s from the 2018 batch with a few other random deckers.
• 29 - Mostly B5TL/Gemini 3s from the 2016 batch with a few other random deckers.
• 30 - Mostly B8RLE/Evoras with a few 7900s.
• 31 - Mostly B8L/E400MMC-XLBs with a few other random deckers.
• 33 - Some ex-London B9TL/Gemini 2s (double door) and some ex-London B9TL/Gemini 2s (single door).
• 34 - Mostly B5LH/Gemini 3s from the 2015 batch and B5TL/E400MMCs. A few other random deckers.
• 35 - Mostly B5LH/Gemini 3s from the 2015 batch and B5TL/E400MMCs. A few other random deckers.
• 36 - Mostly 7900s with a few B8RLE/Evoras and a few B5TL/E400MMCs.
• 37 - B5TL/E400MMCs.
• 38 - Mostly B8RLE/Evoras with some 7900s.
• 41 - Native B9TL/Gemini 2s from the 2011 batch.
• 44 - B5TL/E400MMCs.
• 45 - Mostly native B9TL/Gemini 2s from the 2011 batch, with some other double-deckers and single-deckers.
• 47 47B - Mostly B8L/E400MMC-XLBs.
• 48 - A random mix of deckers.
• 49 - Mostly B5TL/Gemini 3s from the 2014 batch.

100 - Always B8L/E400MMC-XLBs.
200 300 400 - Always B5TL/Gemini 3s from the 2017 batch.

 

[roadierway77]

• 21 - Mostly B5TL/E400MMCs and few other random deckers.
• 25 - Mostly B5TL/E400MMCs with some other random deckers.

Yep that's correct, I travel both of these routes regularly and the majority of vehicles are 400MMCs, with some Gemini 3s and the occasional Gemini 2. In addition the N25 is almost always XLBs.

• 45 - Mostly native B9TL/Gemini 2s from the 2011 batch, with some other double-deckers and single-deckers.

I don't travel the 45 regularly but from what I've seen at Riccarton, it tends to get a fairly even mix of 7900s and Geminis.

 

[stevenedin]

I'm trying to record what types of vehicles are usually used on each route on a typical day. This is what has been used today (Friday), can anyone confirm that this represents a typical weekday?

• 1 - 7900s
• 2 - Mostly 7900s with a few random deckers.
• 3 - B5TL/E400MMCs
• 4 - Mostly Ex-London B9TL/Gemini 2s (single-door) with a few other random deckers.
• 5 - Mostly Ex-London B9TL/Gemini 2s (single-door) with a few other random deckers.
• 7 - B5TL/Gemini 3s, mostly from 2016 batch.
• 8 - Mostly native B9TL/Gemini 2s from 2011 batch.
• 10 - Mostly native B9TL/Gemini 2s from 2011 batch and a few other random deckers.
• 11 - B8L/E400MMC-XLBs
• 12 - Some 7900s and some other random deckers.
• 14 - Mostly native B9TL/Gemini 2s with a few other random deckers.
• 15 - Some B5TL/Gemini 3s, mostly from the 2015 batch, and some other random deckers.
• 16 - B8L/E400MMC-XLBs
• 19 - Mostly B5TL/Gemini 3s from the 2014 batch, and some other random deckers.
• 21 - Mostly B5TL/E400MMCs and few other random deckers.
• 22 - A few B8L/E400MMC-XLBs and a few other random deckers.
• 23 - Some B5TL/Gemini 3s from the 2015 batch and some other random deckers.
• 24 - Mostly native B9TL/Gemini 2s from the 2011 batch and some other random deckers.
• 25 - Mostly B5TL/E400MMCs with some other random deckers.
• 26 - Mostly B5TL/Gemini 3s from the 2017 batch with a few other random deckers.
• 27 - Mostly B5TL/Gemini 3s from the 2018 batch with a few other random deckers.
• 29 - Mostly B5TL/Gemini 3s from the 2016 batch with a few other random deckers.
• 30 - Mostly B8RLE/Evoras with a few 7900s.
• 31 - Mostly B8L/E400MMC-XLBs with a few other random deckers.
• 33 - Some ex-London B9TL/Gemini 2s (double door) and some ex-London B9TL/Gemini 2s (single door).
• 34 - Mostly B5LH/Gemini 3s from the 2015 batch and B5TL/E400MMCs. A few other random deckers.
• 35 - Mostly B5LH/Gemini 3s from the 2015 batch and B5TL/E400MMCs. A few other random deckers.
• 36 - Mostly 7900s with a few B8RLE/Evoras and a few B5TL/E400MMCs.
• 37 - B5TL/E400MMCs.
• 38 - Mostly B8RLE/Evoras with some 7900s.
• 41 - Native B9TL/Gemini 2s from the 2011 batch.
• 44 - B5TL/E400MMCs.
• 45 - Mostly native B9TL/Gemini 2s from the 2011 batch, with some other double-deckers and single-deckers.
• 47 47B - Mostly B8L/E400MMC-XLBs.
• 48 - A random mix of deckers.
• 49 - Mostly B5TL/Gemini 3s from the 2014 batch.

100 - Always B8L/E400MMC-XLBs.
200 300 400 - Always B5TL/Gemini 3s from the 2017 batch.

The 1 is sometimes double decker as well.

The 4 has some dual doored ex London buses also.

 

[Bus9120UK]

The 1 is sometimes double decker as well.

The 4 has some dual doored ex London buses also.

The double decker 1s and 2s are both rare occurrences now. It happened twice earlier this week on the 1, probably due to a lack of single being available (despite Central now having 19 7900s) but otherwise this doesn't happen at all except when a bus is replaced. This compared to 2 everyday on both routes at some points.

The 22 is generally a mix of native B9s and a few buses from 426-437, alongside one (more commonly now) or two white XLBs. The buses that were bought for the 22 no longer operate it. Allocations seem to change every week though, the 22 had an ev operating on it on a specific board for a few weeks and then it just disappeared with two EVs now appearing on the 24.

The 48 I'd say is operated by both single and double door ex London's. Obviously the other deckers do appear too but that's generally at peaks .

 

[90019]

The 23 is almost always a mix of B5TL/Gemini 3s 426-437 and the 4 electric deckers.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Similarly to add, seeing anything other than Gemini2’s on the 14 these days is quite rare. Even on Sundays the 14 is being allocated these now rather than 441-465.

 

[CN04NRJ]

Similarly to add, seeing anything other than Gemini2’s on the 14 these days is quite rare. Even on Sundays the 14 is being allocated these now rather than 441-465.

With the moon having a better driving surface than Greendykes Road, I can't see that changing any time soon!

 

[computerSaysNo]

Yep that's correct, I travel both of these routes regularly and the majority of vehicles are 400MMCs, with some Gemini 3s and the occasional Gemini 2. In addition the N25 is almost always XLBs.

I don't travel the 45 regularly but from what I've seen at Riccarton, it tends to get a fairly even mix of 7900s and Geminis.

The 1 is sometimes double decker as well.

The 4 has some dual doored ex London buses also.

The double decker 1s and 2s are both rare occurrences now. It happened twice earlier this week on the 1, probably due to a lack of single being available (despite Central now having 19 7900s) but otherwise this doesn't happen at all except when a bus is replaced. This compared to 2 everyday on both routes at some points.

The 22 is generally a mix of native B9s and a few buses from 426-437, alongside one (more commonly now) or two white XLBs. The buses that were bought for the 22 no longer operate it. Allocations seem to change every week though, the 22 had an ev operating on it on a specific board for a few weeks and then it just disappeared with two EVs now appearing on the 24.

The 48 I'd say is operated by both single and double door ex London's. Obviously the other deckers do appear too but that's generally at peaks .

The 23 is almost always a mix of B5TL/Gemini 3s 426-437 and the 4 electric deckers.

Similarly to add, seeing anything other than Gemini2’s on the 14 these days is quite rare. Even on Sundays the 14 is being allocated these now rather than 441-465.

Thanks all, I've added those in to my post in History of Bus Routes. Is anyone able to access the PDF timetable for the 48 from here: https://www.lothianbuses.com/timetable/?service_name=48 ? Every time I try, it comes up with "This URL has expired". It sometimes does that with the other timetables too but if I go back and try again a different day then it usually works.

 

[GusB]

Thanks all, I've added those in to my post in History of Bus Routes. Is anyone able to access the PDF timetable for the 48 from here: https://www.lothianbuses.com/timetable/?service_name=48 ? Every time I try, it comes up with "This URL has expired". It sometimes does that with the other timetables too but if I go back and try again a different day then it usually works.

Here it is:

 

[computerSaysNo]

Here it is:

Thank you.

 

[VioletEclipse]

I feel like there is a continuing theme of service 14 getting allocated some of the oldest buses in the fleet.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I feel like there is a continuing theme of service 14 getting allocated some of the oldest buses in the fleet.

I’ll gladly take the Gemini2’s on the 14 over many of the other buses in the fleet.

In the past some of the older allocations were bad buses, but overall they’ve been the better options.

 

[eh1]

I’ll gladly take the Gemini2’s on the 14 over many of the other buses in the fleet.

In the past some of the older allocations were bad buses, but overall they’ve been the better options.

They're better suited than the 400s that's for sure! 400s perform much better on quieter, slower paced routes

 

[CN04NRJ]

They're better suited than the 400s that's for sure! 400s perform much better on quieter, slower paced routes

In an ideal world Central would have the B5LHs for the 29/37/47 - drive wonderfully on out of city routes while the 400s are best plodding about the city.

 

[eh1]

In an ideal world Central would have the B5LHs for the 29/37/47 - drive wonderfully on out of city routes while the 400s are best plodding about the city.

I think the 18 plate B5TLs would have been better suited to Countrys work! The ex Skylink Hybrids seemed a bizzare choice for the Country fleet.

 

[Graham19862104]

I have been looking of pictures of Lothian buses demonstrator vehicles from over the years and have noticed a MAN Lions City CNG was trialed (it didnt go into service because the doors were on the wrong side and so was the driver and a few other important things), if the trial was a success or Lothian became interested would these of probably been bought instead of the 7900s and would they be better?

I know this question has no correct answer but I thought it would be a good thing to discuss as i don't think it has been before.


Source of information:

MAN Lion's City CNG demonstrator on Hanover Street. Didn't operate in service since the steering wheel is in the wrong place

Explore Goodwill City's 840 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

I have been looking of pictures of Lothian buses demonstrator vehicles from over the years and have noticed a MAN Lions City CNG was trialed (it didnt go into service because the doors were on the wrong side and so was the driver and a few other important things), if the trial was a success or Lothian became interested would these of probably been bought instead of the 7900s and would they be better?

I know this question has no correct answer but I thought it would be a good thing to discuss as i don't think it has been before.


Source of information:

MAN Lion's City CNG demonstrator on Hanover Street. Didn't operate in service since the steering wheel is in the wrong place

Explore Goodwill City's 840 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

They trialled a MAN CNG, registration WX61FXO but nothing came of this and there were no orders.

 

[EllieAquitrain]

Hi all, is there a site/document somewhere that lists the PVR for Lothian bus routes, similar to this website https://londonbuses.co.uk/menus/rl001-100.html ? If not, are there any tricks for calculating those numbers myself?

 

[CraigLockhart]

I feel like there is a continuing theme of service 14 getting allocated some of the oldest buses in the fleet.

It serves some of the roughest parts of Edinburgh at either end of its route going into the estates. Perhaps that may have some influence on it.

 

[frvic93]

It serves some of the roughest parts of Edinburgh at either end of its route going into the estates. Perhaps that may have some influence on it.

The southern end of the route isn't that bad nowadays, except for passing by the Craigmillar Castle tenements and Niddrie Marischal. The surface of Greendykes Road is atrocious though - maybe they don't want to ruin their new vehicles on it.

 

[CN04NRJ]

The southern end of the route isn't that bad nowadays, except for passing by the Craigmillar Castle tenements and Niddrie Marischal. The surface of Greendykes Road is atrocious though - maybe they don't want to ruin their new vehicles on it.

The 14 isn't really that bad, the worst route by far for anti-social behaviour at the moment is the 29 (and 48) between Eskbank/Dalkeith and Birkenside. Quite a few evenings recently buses have been pulled out from Gore Avenue and Birkenside.

 

[frvic93]

The 14 isn't really that bad, the worst route by far for anti-social behaviour at the moment is the 29 (and 48) between Eskbank/Dalkeith and Birkenside. Quite a few evenings recently buses have been pulled out from Gore Avenue and Birkenside.

I wonder if people who can afford to use the train are using it between those destinations, so you're left with a higher proportion of young and poor people on the bus. Bit concerning though, what are you meant to do about it? I'm never really around there, other than passing through on the train, so I had no idea.

 

[buslad1988]

I wonder if people who can afford to use the train are using it between those destinations, so you're left with a higher proportion of young and poor people on the bus. Bit concerning though, what are you meant to do about it? I'm never really around there, other than passing through on the train, so I had no idea.

There’s only a higher proportion of young people on the bus on those sections simply because they travel for free and have nothing better to do. In most cases it doesn’t matter how busy a bus is either; they simply have no respect or care for anyone but themselves. It’s just general anti-social behaviour.

 

[Siemens Trains]

The 14 isn't really that bad, the worst route by far for anti-social behaviour at the moment is the 29 (and 48) between Eskbank/Dalkeith and Birkenside. Quite a few evenings recently buses have been pulled out from Gore Avenue and Birkenside.

Right on cue, services 29 and 48 were withdrawn from Gorebridge Station and Birkenside areas again about an hour ago. I believe they risked running until about 6pm last night.

 

[stevenedin]

I’m assuming that buses will automatically revert to going down Leith Walk again since it reopens fully tomorrow?