Three Bridges overcrowding during rail replacement

[MrJeeves]

Three Bridges is not built for handling the rush from rail replacement services with about 5 or 6 barriers to handle all passenger entries/exits.

Today highlighted this when combined with an RPI check and the Sunday engineering works on the Brighton Mainline.

RPI staff were demanding that the gateline staff opened all the gates but the person at the gates only opened a single gate instead of pressing the emergency all release button.

These issues are exasperated by barrier database issues meaning various tickets (including my Burgess Hill to Gatwick season) don't open the barriers here when they should.

 

[Edsmith]

This is ridiculous, ticket checks are normally sacrificed during engineering work and disruption.

 

[JonathanH]

This is ridiculous, ticket checks are normally sacrificed during engineering work and disruption.

...and allow revenue to literally walk out the door.

Given the sight of RPIs in the picture, it looks like there was a plan for a (not unreasonable) enforcement exercise that couldn't cope with the number of passengers.

The fact that there are people being 'spoken to' in the picture suggests that not everyone was travelling with an appropriate ticket.

 

[Surreytraveller]

The fact that there are people being 'spoken to' in the picture suggests that not everyone was travelling with an appropriate ticket.

You're assuming the RPIs know what an appropriate ticket is

 

[JonathanH]

You're assuming the RPIs know what an appropriate ticket is

Yes, although I suspect they find it easiest when the passenger has no ticket.

 

[Llanigraham]

That photo doesn't appear to show much overcrowding; there appears to be plenty of space between people

 

[zwk500]

Yes, although I suspect they find it easiest when the passenger has no ticket.

As is the classic case when RRBs are on, as there is an assumption ticket checks will be suspended (either because 'it's a bus not a train so I shouldn't have to pay' or just because they reckon it'll be very busy).

 

[Watershed]

As is the classic case when RRBs are on, as there is an assumption ticket checks will be suspended (either because 'it's a bus not a train so I shouldn't have to pay' or just because they reckon it'll be very busy).

Though most of the usual revenue protection powers don't apply to replacement buses. You can't issue a Penalty Fare, there's no Byelaw 18 or RoRA, in fact you can't even detain the passenger or demand their details. You can stop people getting on buses without a ticket, and ask them for tickets if they're coming off, but that's about it.

Of course, knowing the training and attitude of some RPIs, I wouldn't be surprised if people coming off buses were being wrongly penalised.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Isn't the OP's pic one of passengers coming down from the platforms, i.e. having alighted from a train, at Three Bridges?

 

[MrJeeves]

That photo doesn't appear to show much overcrowding; there appears to be plenty of space between people

That was only after the first terminating train. By the time I had gotten to the front, there had been one more terminated and another just pulling in.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Feb 2023 ==

As is the classic case when RRBs are on, as there is an assumption ticket checks will be suspended (either because 'it's a bus not a train so I shouldn't have to pay' or just because they reckon it'll be very busy).

Doesn't help when station staff by the buses are saying not to bother with showing your ticket as they don't care!

 

[Edsmith]

...and allow revenue to literally walk out the door.

Given the sight of RPIs in the picture, it looks like there was a plan for a (not unreasonable) enforcement exercise that couldn't cope with the number of passengers.

The fact that there are people being 'spoken to' in the picture suggests that not everyone was travelling with an appropriate ticket.

That's pretty much the norm in my experience, passengers are stressed enough with antagonising them further with unnecessary ticket checks.........revenue walks out of the door on a daily basis.

 

[johncrossley]

Smartcards and contactless cards are not required to be validated when replacement buses are in operation, so ticket checks on the KeyGo network don't make sense.

 

[MrJeeves]

Smartcards and contactless cards are not required to be validated when replacement buses are in operation

They are, but this isn't checked.

For rail replacement, you're meant to tap in/out at the station first before boarding the bus.

 

[johncrossley]

They are, but this isn't checked.

For rail replacement, you're meant to tap in/out at the station first before boarding the bus.

Often the bus stop is some walk from the station and not all stations have standalone smartcard readers. I was specifically told not to touch in when using a rail replacement bus in the Oyster area.

 

[JonathanH]

I was specifically told not to touch in when using a rail replacement bus in the Oyster area.

Yes. It remains an absolute disgrace that after 20 years of Oyster, they haven't developed a solution to charge passengers for using replacement buses.

It should be so simple to set up.

(I wouldn't mind if they explicitly said it was free, but they still try to claim that you should pay and then don't put in the means to do so.)

 

[Starmill]

Yes. It remains an absolute disgrace that after 20 years of Oyster, they haven't developed a solution to charge passengers for using replacement buses.

It should be so simple to set up.

Weird thing to get agitated enough about so as to call a disgrace tbh. It's up to them at the end of the day. How much do you think readers cost that several hundred across London's streets would be reasonable to put in? How much revenue can possibly be collected?

They have been using their new solution anyway, they've started putting penalty fare warnings on the posters for some replacement services and made it a part of the contract for rail replacement that a TfL bus is used, and a temporary route registered. However the fare due is the obviously the bus fare, not the railway fare. This is confirmed by the poster which includes the penalty fare warning.

 

[MrJeeves]

Often the bus stop is some walk from the station and not all stations have standalone smartcard readers. I was specifically told not to touch in when using a rail replacement bus in the Oyster area.

When I asked via Twitter, I was told to tap in/out at stations for bus ticket acceptance and rail replacement, but my question in particular was for an area outside the Oyster area.

made it a part of the contract for rail replacement that a TfL bus is used, and a temporary route registered. However the fare due is the obviously the bus fare, not the railway fare. This is confirmed by the poster which includes the penalty fare warning.

I assume this would be in addition to railway ticket acceptance (e.g., through tickets).

 

[JB_B]

Three Bridges is not built for handling the rush from rail replacement services with about 5 or 6 barriers to handle all passenger entries/exits.

Today highlighted this when combined with an RPI check and the Sunday engineering works on the Brighton Mainline.

RPI staff were demanding that the gateline staff opened all the gates but the person at the gates only opened a single gate instead of pressing the emergency all release button.

These issues are exasperated by barrier database issues meaning various tickets (including my Burgess Hill to Gatwick season) don't open the barriers here when they should.

View attachment 128900

How far were people backing up behind the gateline? From the picture it only looks 3 or 4 deep which isn't that unusual. I appreciate there may have been people behind you ( assuming you took the picture?)

 

[Starmill]

I assume this would be in addition to railway ticket acceptance (e.g., through tickets).

Yes as far as I am aware all paper tickets which would be valid on the train will also be accepted on the bus.

 

[JonathanH]

They have been using their new solution anyway, they've started putting penalty fare warnings on the posters for some replacement services and made it a part of the contract for rail replacement that a TfL bus is used, and a temporary route registered. However the fare due is the obviously the bus fare, not the railway fare. This is confirmed by the poster which includes the penalty fare warning.

Yes, that makes a lot of sense, and will hopefully remove the ambiguity.

 

[MrJeeves]

How far were people backing up behind the gateline? From the picture it only looks 3 or 4 deep which isn't that unusual. I appreciate there may have been people behind you ( assuming you took the picture?)

This was moments after I exited the platforms. It was much worse by the time I neared the front of the crowd and one or two other terminating trains worth of people had joined.

 

[Edsmith]

Yes. It remains an absolute disgrace that after 20 years of Oyster, they haven't developed a solution to charge passengers for using replacement buses.

It should be so simple to set up.

(I wouldn't mind if they explicitly said it was free, but they still try to claim that you should pay and then don't put in the means to do so.)

And what about people who don't have an oyster? If they announced it was free it might encourage more people to have a free day out somewhere, in practice people without tickets are just waved on board and told not to worry about it.

 

[Taunton]

Yes. It remains an absolute disgrace that after 20 years of Oyster, they haven't developed a solution to charge passengers for using replacement buses.

It should be so simple to set up.

(I wouldn't mind if they explicitly said it was free, but they still try to claim that you should pay and then don't put in the means to do so.)

The understanding I got from TfL was that in London Rail Replacements tended to be a fraction of the passengers' overall journeys in the day, and from a detailed analysis what Oyster etc collected from the remainder was most (if not all) of the revenue, so it wasn't financially worth collecting on the replacement bus, which would involve a range of expensive difficulties. The DLR, for example, hires non-TfL buses without any Oyster facility, and many DLR stations have readers up at platform level, which is barriered off when works are in progress.

However you are correct that the notices that require valid tickets/cards which are then impossible to get are a nonsense.