Closing the gap in Bradford

[Bartsimho]

Would there be a case of closing the 500m gap between Bradford Forster Square and Bradford Interchange stations. This would work better if done in conjunction with a Northern Highspeed project and a Larger station across both sites. You could also direct Leeds to Carlisle trains through another major centre without the need to reverse.

 

[30907]

Would there be a case of closing the 500m gap between Bradford Forster Square and Bradford Interchange stations. This would work better if done in conjunction with a Northern Highspeed project and a Larger station across both sites. You could also direct Leeds to Carlisle trains through another major centre without the need to reverse.

Could I refer you to the search engine, which will bring up a dozen or more threads?

 

[Bevan Price]

It would be too expensive. Also it would add 10-15 minutes to an already slow Leeds to Carlisle journey time.

 

[Northumbriana]

I think there's a difference in height between the stations that would be difficult to solve? Maybe in a more ambitious future trams could operate on the Forster Square line and then to Interchange and further.

Personally I think there might be better value in diverting the Interchange approach curving 90 degrees to the East into a new main station by Wakefield Road and joining the Leeds - Bradford line at Hammerton Street. Therefore removing the need for reversals.

Additional a more direct line to Huddersfield allowing trains to go to Manchester via NPR would be useful. If the capacity could be created.

 

[Halifaxlad]

I think there's a difference in height between the stations that would be difficult to solve? Maybe in a more ambitious future trams could operate on the Forster Square line and then to Interchange and further.

Whenever crossing Bradford comes up there is always someone who mentions the height difference I don't really see why, as you could just have it crossing the Forster Square retail park on stilts before a gradual slope (with no cant) back down to join the existing line. There is only about 2 industrial units you would have to kybosh.

As for Bradford Forster Square it would be better leaving it in its current location, although if it was brought closer to Lower Kirkgate that would be very useful.

 

[tbtc]

You could also direct Leeds to Carlisle trains through another major centre without the need to reverse.

Other than significantly slowing down the bi-hourly Sprinter to Carlisle (which is seen as a fast route from Leeds to Glasgow on other threads!), what genuine benefits would you get from the hundreds of millions of pounds needed to implement this project?

Would Bradford get any increased services/ new destinations? Other than potentially slowing down the Carlisle services, this doesn’t provide any improvements for Bradford that couldn’t happen anyway

Are there any huge cross-Bradford flows that demand a through service? Ilkley/ Keighley to Manchester would probably still be faster via Leeds. There’s no cross-Bradford bus services other than those confined to the city boundaries (AFAICS?), so it’s not as if there’s demonstrably some huge market for something like Skipton to Brighouse

Since only one side of Bradford has electrification, would your project involve wiring of the Calder Valley (inc to Preston, Huddersfield), or replacing EMUs through Shipley with DMUs since the line South of Bradford lacks wires? Because another hundred miles of electrification is going to make this even more expensive

I suppose the one consolation is that we’ve got this far in the thread without anyone doing the traditional suggestion of “Leeds - Bradford - Leeds” circular on LNER services!

 

[Neptune]

There are so many reasons why it isn’t necessary to join the 2 sides of Bradford together mentioned seemingly a million times before but it never stops it coming up (see Skipton - Colne also). Most of the reasons that’s come up are due to people’s allergy to buffer stops.

So without going into too much detail yet again here are the issues:-

1) Re-Digging out the original line at Bradford Interchnge. If you actually look at some of the old photos of the current station when it was half built you will see that it is considerably higher than the original alignment meaning closure of Bridge Street for a considerable time to put a bridge back in.

2) The height difference is an issue. There isn’t the room to run a ‘line on stilts’ without knocking down the Law Courts, Broadway shopping centre and probably Hamme Stasse bridge.

3) A central station would require lots of space. There simply isn’t any in the centre without even more clearance required.

There are many many more issues such a scheme would cause (not least cost of not just a railway line and all the huge infrastructure required but also the re-homing of all the businesses demolished by the scheme) but what is the net benefit. Not reversing trains?

Bradford Council certainly wouldn’t fund any of it as it isn’t close enough to City Hall to deserve funding (slightly tongue in cheek although most of the funding by our appalling Council does seem to go towards gentrification around said headquarters).

No, I’d rather such money required went into further electrification around West Yorks including the Calder Valley line. Take an anti-histamine for the buffer stops please and let the more vital work of de-carbonising the railways soak up that particular cash pot.

 

[mike57]

There have been proposals over the years and to use an appropriate cliche they have all 'hit the buffers'. There are a number of problems with any plan, but these could be overcome given sufficent money. Difference in hieght would require significant engineering, electification would need to extend from Leeds via Pudsey, the route via Pudsey would need improved line speeds. This project is not going to attract funding in the current climate, and bear in mind the main TPE route electrification is still proceeding at a glacial pace, with large sections of the route not even started, and this quite rightly would take priority over a Bradford scheme.

I have often wondered why the short chord allowing through trains without reversal in Bradford was not retained for diversionary use, its only about 300yds or so. (I am not refering to the longer route to the south of the current line)

Given that everything on this route is DMU how long does the reversal take anyway, I've been on services to Accrington from York-Leeds a few times and turnaround can be as quick as 3 minutes

 

[yoyothehobo]

I have often wondered why the short chord allowing through trains without reversal in Bradford was not retained for diversionary use, its only about 300yds or so. (I am not refering to the longer route to the south of the current line)

I cant think of any diversionary purpose it would serve which isnt already utilised by a better route

 

[YorksLad12]

2) The height difference is an issue. There isn’t the room to run a ‘line on stilts’ without knocking down the Law Courts, Broadway shopping centre and probably Hamme Stasse bridge.

The courts are where they are so that they can be knocked down if required - I think the Council owns all that space. You could, in theory, move the whole of the Interchange across the road which would gain you... absolutely nothing. Unless you created a high level and low level station, which... no. Just no.

I cant think of any diversionary purpose it would serve which isnt already utilised by a better route

Halifax to Leeds without using the congested Transpennine route? Most of the former line from Laisterdyke to Bowling is there but it's a rare need.

 

[Bartsimho]

The courts are where they are so that they can be knocked down if required - I think the Council owns all that space. You could, in theory, move the whole of the Interchange across the road which would gain you... absolutely nothing. Unless you created a high level and low level station, which... no. Just no.

Maybe a High-Level and Low-Level if any Northern Highspeed line happens?

 

[yoyothehobo]

Halifax to Leeds without using the congested Transpennine route? Most of the former line from Laisterdyke to Bowling is there but it's a rare need.

But if you really needed you can do that and go the long way round via Wakefield, past Mirfield.

The diversionary route only gives you use if Bradford Interchange itself is closed, which is probably responsible for over 90% of the traffic from Low Moor, Bradford, New Pudsey and Bramley combined.
The only service that would make use of the chord would be the Blackpool North - York service, which if missing Bradford, might as well not go that way at all in the first place.

 

[ian1944]

We've got this far in the thread without anyone suggesting that the way to avoid large-scale demolition for the line on stilts is to dig a big hole and put everything underground. Bradford Crossrail for the pent-up Shipley - Bowling demand? Or maybe a small hole, just large enough to get a tunnelling machine down? Grrr ...

 

[Halifaxlad]

I always love how when ever someone suggests crossing Bradford instead of a serious discussion as to how it could be done we end up with clearly bias comments as to why it can't!

Comments which are based upon this presumption that it has to be on the old alignment and therefore demolishing the Courts. Whilst ignoring the fact that Bradford Councils proposals for a through station (although different location) involve a brand new alignment, demolition and road closures.

Things like Bridge St, which is an issue as you most certainly wouldn't be able to fit wires underneath it if rebuilt. For those that don't know Bradford Council hopes to reduce Bridge St into access for the station taxi rank!

My favorite is that Broadway Shopping Centre would have to be demolished, at the end of the day most could easily remain as only
the section next to Well St would have to go to construct foundations for a viaduct although you could rebuild retail below it later if you wanted to! Last time I looked on the shopping centres website there were a lot of empty shops in it! (Unless they haven't updated the website)

As for connecting it to Bradford Forster Square either you could just avoid it completely, or you could build a new station upon the old Royal Mail site, obviously with a concourse below and stairs/escalators leading up to the platforms.

I would love a serious discussion on how it could/should be done but we only ever get bogged down in silliness on here!

Before I go it may be worth pointing out that electrifying and upgrading the line via New Pudsey is part of the IRP!

 

[Bartsimho]

I always love how when ever someone suggests crossing Bradford instead of a serious discussion as to how it could be done we end up with clearly bias comments as to why it can't!

Comments which are based upon this presumption that it has to be on the old alignment and therefore demolishing the Courts. Whilst ignoring the fact that Bradford Councils proposals for a through station (although different location) involve a brand new alignment, demolition and road closures.

Things like Bridge St, which is an issue as you most certainly wouldn't be able to fit wires underneath it if rebuilt. For those that don't know Bradford Council hopes to reduce Bridge St into access for the station taxi rank!

My favorite is that Broadway Shopping Centre would have to be demolished, at the end of the day most could easily remain as only
the section next to Well St would have to go to construct foundations for a viaduct although you could rebuild retail below it later if you wanted to! Last time I looked on the shopping centres website there were a lot of empty shops in it! (Unless they haven't updated the website)

As for connecting it to Bradford Forster Square either you could just avoid it completely, or you could build a new station upon the old Royal Mail site, obviously with a concourse below and stairs/escalators leading up to the platforms.

I would love a serious discussion on how it could/should be done but we only ever get bogged down in silliness on here!

Before I go it may be worth pointing out that electrifying and upgrading the line via New Pudsey is part of the IRP!

I could see a through station being created along with NPR if that ever happened as Bradford is a good place to run a Manchester-Leeds line through.

 

[Bantamzen]

I always love how when ever someone suggests crossing Bradford instead of a serious discussion as to how it could be done we end up with clearly bias comments as to why it can't!

Comments which are based upon this presumption that it has to be on the old alignment and therefore demolishing the Courts. Whilst ignoring the fact that Bradford Councils proposals for a through station (although different location) involve a brand new alignment, demolition and road closures.

Things like Bridge St, which is an issue as you most certainly wouldn't be able to fit wires underneath it if rebuilt. For those that don't know Bradford Council hopes to reduce Bridge St into access for the station taxi rank!

My favorite is that Broadway Shopping Centre would have to be demolished, at the end of the day most could easily remain as only
the section next to Well St would have to go to construct foundations for a viaduct although you could rebuild retail below it later if you wanted to! Last time I looked on the shopping centres website there were a lot of empty shops in it! (Unless they haven't updated the website)

As for connecting it to Bradford Forster Square either you could just avoid it completely, or you could build a new station upon the old Royal Mail site, obviously with a concourse below and stairs/escalators leading up to the platforms.

I would love a serious discussion on how it could/should be done but we only ever get bogged down in silliness on here!

Before I go it may be worth pointing out that electrifying and upgrading the line via New Pudsey is part of the IRP!

To be honest if there ever was a time that this might be a glimmer of a possibility over the horizon was before the Broadway was built. That would have been the time if any, and honestly it was never much more than a distant aspiration. If I recall correctly the scaled down plans for the centre that were used in the build did include the possibility of expansion, but it is unclear at best if that involved anything a rail viaduct. And frankly it would be unlikely.

I really think the only ever realistic chance of a cross-Bradford link would be if the West Yorkshire tram idea became reality and made it to Bradford, and that would come in at a fraction of the cost. The line would just need to leave the Interchange, head towards the City Hall, right along Market Street and around the top of the Broadway where the old Royal Mail depot was and connect to the Aire / Wharfe alignment. But even that will probably be a couple of decades away, so I'm not holding my breath. Honestly I would rather the money be saved and head off what look like more cuts coming in the May timetable recast (i.e. Skipton / Ilkley services back to 1tph in the off-peak).

Finally what I really don't get is the obsession with a Bradford avoiding line. Firstly the alignments are built over, and secondly they pass through a highly industrialised area at a higher elevation than the Interchange and at best a mile further away from the city centre. So basically utterly useless save saving a couple of minutes off timings.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I always love how when ever someone suggests crossing Bradford instead of a serious discussion as to how it could be done we end up with clearly bias comments as to why it can't!

The bias towards saying it can't (or rather shouldn't) be done is because it wouldn't actually improve much for all the billions it would cost.
It won't suddenly turn Bradford into a true economic competitor of Leeds, and it wouldn't do all that much for Bradford residents or ratepayers either.

For the same money Bradford could reinstate its old trolleybus network covering all the busiest bus routes into the outer districts, and that would give far more bang for the buck.

 

[Bartsimho]

The bias towards saying it can't (or rather shouldn't) be done is because it wouldn't actually improve much for all the billions it would cost.
It won't suddenly turn Bradford into a true economic competitor of Leeds, and it wouldn't do all that much for Bradford residents or ratepayers either.

For the same money Bradford could reinstate its old trolleybus network covering all the busiest bus routes into the outer districts, and that would give far more bang for the buck.

Based on that arguement we should dig up all railways except for the major freight routes and just replace it all with Bus services.

 

[Iskra]

To be honest if there ever was a time that this might be a glimmer of a possibility over the horizon was before the Broadway was built. That would have been the time if any, and honestly it was never much more than a distant aspiration. If I recall correctly the scaled down plans for the centre that were used in the build did include the possibility of expansion, but it is unclear at best if that involved anything a rail viaduct. And frankly it would be unlikely.

I really think the only ever realistic chance of a cross-Bradford link would be if the West Yorkshire tram idea became reality and made it to Bradford, and that would come in at a fraction of the cost. The line would just need to leave the Interchange, head towards the City Hall, right along Market Street and around the top of the Broadway where the old Royal Mail depot was and connect to the Aire / Wharfe alignment. But even that will probably be a couple of decades away, so I'm not holding my breath. Honestly I would rather the money be saved and head off what look like more cuts coming in the May timetable recast (i.e. Skipton / Ilkley services back to 1tph in the off-peak).

Finally what I really don't get is the obsession with a Bradford avoiding line. Firstly the alignments are built over, and secondly they pass through a highly industrialised area at a higher elevation than the Interchange and at best a mile further away from the city centre. So basically utterly useless save saving a couple of minutes off timings.

A cable car would be much cheaper and easier, and you could include it in the price of rail tickets and therefore journey planners.

I still think it would be a waste of time though, I’m struggling to think what groups would really benefit. A 500m walk isn’t seen as a problem in Glasgow, Birmingham, London or many other cities.

 

[yoyothehobo]

Based on that arguement we should dig up all railways except for the major freight routes and just replace it all with Bus services.

I think this is quite possibly the most non-coherent argument i have seen on this forum

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Based on that arguement we should dig up all railways except for the major freight routes and just replace it all with Bus services.

You're going to have to explain your thought process a little bit more here, because I'm struggling to see your point. I'm not sure how not wanting to destroy a city centre to make maps look neat is equivalent to wanting to rip up every railway in the country.

 

[bluenoxid]

Based on that arguement we should dig up all railways except for the major freight routes and just replace it all with Bus services.

There is someone pushing the position of coaches replacing trains on the rail network.

Transport systems only work when there is a network and that needs to include within cities as well as connecting them to other cities. Not everyone lives within walking distance of railway stations

 

[Halifaxlad]

To be honest if there ever was a time that this might be a glimmer of a possibility over the horizon was before the Broadway was built.

A thought conveyed by many others!

Whilst it clearly would have been more practical just because now it will require some demolition doesn't mean its any less likely!

Look at how much is being demolished (including listed buildings) to facilitate HS2. If the will is there it can be done!

 

[Bantamzen]

A thought conveyed by many others!

Whilst it clearly would have been more practical just because now it will require some demolition doesn't mean its any less likely!

Look at how much is being demolished (including listed buildings) to facilitate HS2. If the will is there it can be done!

Indeed, and look at how much that's costing. That's the sort of money we'll never see 'oop in't grim north!!!

 

[yoyothehobo]

I just dont see what the benefits of combining the two is.

It probably has a similar BCR to combining the two Tyndrum stations.

 

[Neptune]

Combining 2 stations in Bradford to eliminate a half mile walk does not remotely compare to the benefits HS2 will bring to unlocking the WCML. I suppose HS2 is preventing that vital (sic) link from Colne to Skipton too!

And for those that say that nothing major happens in the north then what the hell is TRU?

A 500m walk isn’t seen as a problem in Glasgow, Birmingham, London or many other cities.

Quite. Far bigger and more important economical powerhouse cities than Bradford could ever wish to be yet they seem to cope with separate stations quite happily.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I just dont see what the benefits of combining the two is.

Wonder why it wasn't ever done in Victorian times? Rival railway companies? Whomever owned central Bradford?

It probably has a similar BCR to combining the two Tyndrum stations.

Quite! Or even Glasgow Queen Street to Glasgow Central.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I just dont see what the benefits of combining the two is.

It probably has a similar BCR to combining the two Tyndrum stations.

It cures reversal anxiety.

There's a tendency to see it as a magic bullet for all the problems Bradford faces, but I can't see it myself. The main beneficiaries would be people travelling from Bradford to elsewhere, and people who just happen to be passing through the city and have no intention of spending any money there anyway.

 

[JKF]

Rebuilding the Pudsey loop would be a better use of money (and that still wouldn’t be worth it!).

upgrade and electrification of the line through New Pudsey would have more benefit, getting decent speed/frequency on that line would make Bradford more accessible from Leeds and suburbs, the current electrified route through Shipley is pretty rural in comparison.

 

[yoyothehobo]

Rebuilding the Pudsey loop would be a better use of money (and that still wouldn’t be worth it!).

upgrade and electrification of the line through New Pudsey would have more benefit, getting decent speed/frequency on that line would make Bradford more accessible from Leeds and suburbs, the current electrified route through Shipley is pretty rural in comparison.

Electrification would be the best thing you could do for the route, though the 195s have been a step change on the gradients out of Leeds compared to the 142s/150s before them.

Though you would have to take that all the way through to Halifax at the very least to make it worthwhile, if Calder Valley gets electrification then you have an improved case otherwise you just have a short spur really.

If think that if you were to combine the two stations you would make everything worse for everyone and you would still have to reverse services anyway!