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Closing the gap in Bradford

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Neptune

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Electrification would be the best thing you could do for the route, though the 195s have been a step change on the gradients out of Leeds compared to the 142s/150s before them.

Though you would have to take that all the way through to Halifax at the very least to make it worthwhile, if Calder Valley gets electrification then you have an improved case otherwise you just have a short spur really.
Agree on electrification way above eradicating buffer stops and reversing through trains.

If Leeds - Bradford Int - Halifax - Brighouse and down both spurs to meet the North Transpennine was done it would be a good start for eventual Calder Valley electrification.
 
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Glenn1969

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There have been proposals over the years and to use an appropriate cliche they have all 'hit the buffers'. There are a number of problems with any plan, but these could be overcome given sufficent money. Difference in hieght would require significant engineering, electification would need to extend from Leeds via Pudsey, the route via Pudsey would need improved line speeds. This project is not going to attract funding in the current climate, and bear in mind the main TPE route electrification is still proceeding at a glacial pace, with large sections of the route not even started, and this quite rightly would take priority over a Bradford scheme.

I have often wondered why the short chord allowing through trains without reversal in Bradford was not retained for diversionary use, its only about 300yds or so. (I am not refering to the longer route to the south of the current line)

Given that everything on this route is DMU how long does the reversal take anyway, I've been on services to Accrington from York-Leeds a few times and turnaround can be as quick as 3 minutes
I always thought the penalty was 7 minutes (2 minutes in, 3 minutes for the crew to change ends and 2 minutes out). But I'm sure someone will correct me
 

YorksLad12

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Wonder why it wasn't ever done in Victorian times? Rival railway companies? Whomever owned central Bradford?
Because, George Hudson. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leeds_and_Bradford_Railway#Leasing_the_line

If you look at the Railway Clearing House maps of 1913, there is a prospective Midland Railway line included from the Low Moor area skirting the Exchange station (closer to Adolphus Street) and connecting with the existing Midland Railway north of Forster Square. So firstly some shenanigans and then a lack of cash pre-Grouping.
 

mike57

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I always thought the penalty was 7 minutes (2 minutes in, 3 minutes for the crew to change ends and 2 minutes out). But I'm sure someone will correct me
When I refered to 3 minutes I was referring to from Stop to Start again leaving the station.

Bradford is always going to be at a disadvantage in having two terminal stations rather than a through station, but really geography, money and politics means that while I will not say 'never' I can't see there being any change in the foreseeable future.

In a perfect world you would have one central station between the two existing stations. The two existing stations would be closed, the bus interchange would be relocated to the new station. You then electify the Pudsey line and run a loop service both ways Leeds - Pudsey - Bradford - Shipley - Leeds all stations and Leeds Calder Valley semi fast services to Manchester run via Shipley without a reversal at Bradford, running fast Leeds - Bradford. This is a speculative thread after all... Chances of this happening, ZERO
 

M&NEJ

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A cable car would be much cheaper and easier, and you could include it in the price of rail tickets and therefore journey planners.

I still think it would be a waste of time though, I’m struggling to think what groups would really benefit. A 500m walk isn’t seen as a problem in Glasgow, Birmingham, London or many other cities.
I'm stuggling to agree with the bit about a 500m walk. It's a problem for the many folk trying to get through Glasgow!

Much has been said against the walk between Euston and St Pancras; the walk between Queen Street and Glasgow Central; and here the walk across Bradford; and for how long has Manchester schemed to connect its Victoria with Piccadilly?!

Please could we step back from the cynicism and look at what goes on elsewhere? Why have Germany and Austria spent a fortune on new, through main stations? Why do cities have cross-rails (Cross-Rails over the four points of the compass in London; a Cross City Line in Birmingham)? Even Inverness has got one, albeit with reversal.

The hypothetical and speculative business case for connecting the two sides of Bradford would be based on an assessment of the likely traffic flows if, for example the Skipton - Keighley - Bradford services could continue to Leeds via Pudsey or alternatively to Wakefield. And the Ilkley - Bradfords proceeding to Halifax and Huddersfield or Manchester (yes, with future electrification). And on an inter-city operator giving Bradford a long-distance, through service of some sort. And as the years go by, the populations on either side of the Bradford gap will tend to grow.

I don't expect any progress on the Bradford front in my lifetime because the business case probably isn't there. But the Welwyn viaducts, Castlefield quadruplings, Glasgow crossings and Bradford Gap will never go away until a favourable economic or political wind blows here or there and urges that any of these particular problems be fixed.
 

Iskra

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I'm stuggling to agree with the bit about a 500m walk. It's a problem for the many folk trying to get through Glasgow!

Much has been said against the walk between Euston and St Pancras; the walk between Queen Street and Glasgow Central; and here the walk across Bradford; and for how long has Manchester schemed to connect its Victoria with Piccadilly?!

Please could we step back from the cynicism and look at what goes on elsewhere? Why have Germany and Austria spent a fortune on new, through main stations? Why do cities have cross-rails (Cross-Rails over the four points of the compass in London; a Cross City Line in Birmingham)? Even Inverness has got one, albeit with reversal.

The hypothetical and speculative business case for connecting the two sides of Bradford would be based on an assessment of the likely traffic flows if, for example the Skipton - Keighley - Bradford services could continue to Leeds via Pudsey or alternatively to Wakefield. And the Ilkley - Bradfords proceeding to Halifax and Huddersfield or Manchester (yes, with future electrification). And on an inter-city operator giving Bradford a long-distance, through service of some sort. And as the years go by, the populations on either side of the Bradford gap will tend to grow.

I don't expect any progress on the Bradford front in my lifetime because the business case probably isn't there. But the Welwyn viaducts, Castlefield quadruplings, Glasgow crossings and Bradford Gap will never go away until a favourable economic or political wind blows here or there and urges that any of these particular problems be fixed.

Your post is a contradiction. If there's no business case, then it's not a problem worth the effort to solve!
 

61653 HTAFC

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The split of services to Leeds is a slight issue I suppose- if I was in Bradford's City Park and needed to get to Leeds pronto, I'd check my phone to see which station was the best option. I'd do much the same if I was in Manchester city centre and needed to get back to Huddersfield. For cross-Bradford journeys I personally don't have a problem with the short walk, and might even contribute to Bradford's economy in a miniscule way by grabbing a coffee somewhere.
For those who find the walk difficult there are buses from Interchange that run close to Forster Square, there even used to be a free bus though it was only really convenient in one direction. Reinstating this bus, even running it in both directions, would solve the problem for a tiny fraction of the cost of building a railway across the city centre.
 

M&NEJ

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Your post is a contradiction. If there's no business case, then it's not a problem worth the effort to solve!
So just to be clear, are you saying it's not a problem; or would you agree it is a problem but perhaps not one that's worth solving?
 

Mcr Warrior

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Why do cities have cross-rails (Cross-Rails over the four points of the compass in London; a Cross City Line in Birmingham)? Even Inverness has got one, albeit with reversal.
Really? The layout at Inverness seems broadly similar to the current arrangement at Bradford (if, of course, Interchange was to be the only station in the City).
 

Bantamzen

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Your post is a contradiction. If there's no business case, then it's not a problem worth the effort to solve!
Do we actually know that though? As a resident of Baildon for almost 15 years I've often been struck about that amount of traffic that flows through the area from Aire and Wharfe Valleys, through Shipley Bradford and beyond, going nowhere near Leeds. So where is all that traffic going, and is there suppressed demand for through trains? The sad truth is we'll probably never know, because there is neither the political or capital will to make an effort here. So I know that there will never be a heavy rail link.

However that doesn't mean there isn't a problem to solve. There clearly are north - south and visa versa flows through Bradford, and they cause daily problems on the road to the extent that local buses out of Bradford through Shipley can lose 20 - 30 mins on a regular basis. That is a problem.
 

Iskra

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So just to be clear, are you saying it's not a problem; or would you agree it is a problem but perhaps not one that's worth solving?
It's a minor inconvenience, but it isn't clear who in particular would benefit if it were solved (and if there are enough of these people to make it worthwhile). Bradford might actually lose trains if it were 'solved' as you wouldn't need Leeds trains from both stations as now. It's not a silver-bullet for Bradfords transport issues, and I see it as more of a prestige pet project for Bradfordians who aren't overly impressed that Leeds is the regional transport hub and somehow think this would solve that.

Do we actually know that though? As a resident of Baildon for almost 15 years I've often been struck about that amount of traffic that flows through the area from Aire and Wharfe Valleys, through Shipley Bradford and beyond, going nowhere near Leeds. So where is all that traffic going, and is there suppressed demand for through trains? The sad truth is we'll probably never know, because there is neither the political or capital will to make an effort here. So I know that there will never be a heavy rail link.

However that doesn't mean there isn't a problem to solve. There clearly are north - south and visa versa flows through Bradford, and they cause daily problems on the road to the extent that local buses out of Bradford through Shipley can lose 20 - 30 mins on a regular basis. That is a problem.
There isn't a constant, ant-like stream of commuters between the two stations is there though? There's just such little evidence of any through demand that it's hard to justify the expense. I wonder if ticket interchanges are tracked?

Would a train line really assist Bradford's road problems? Bradford is actually quite well linked to the local area by rail, just by two stations rather than one. I suspect it's more than just a 500m walk that's leading to traffic congestion- continuous doubling of the A650/A65 would be a better use of resources I suspect.
 

30907

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Do we actually know that though? As a resident of Baildon for almost 15 years I've often been struck about that amount of traffic that flows through the area from Aire and Wharfe Valleys, through Shipley Bradford and beyond, going nowhere near Leeds. So where is all that traffic going, and is there suppressed demand for through trains?
My guess is that a significant amount (offpeak, when I sometimes drive it) is headed for the M62 east and west, for which the rail equivalent tends to be via Leeds.
The sad truth is we'll probably never know, because there is neither the political or capital will to make an effort here. So I know that there will never be a heavy rail link.
For Bradford the WY Mass Transit scheme prioritises the Leeds Road route via Stanningley and the Spen Valley to Dewsbury via an M62 P&R at Chain Bar. I would assume that there was some research base to choosing those two routes (which may have included ease of construction, of course)
 

stuu

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There isn't a constant, ant-like stream of commuters between the two stations is there though? There's just such little evidence of any through demand that it's hard to justify the expense. I wonder if ticket interchanges are tracked?

Would a train line really assist Bradford's road problems? Bradford is actually quite well linked to the local area by rail, just by two stations rather than one. I suspect it's more than just a 500m walk that's leading to traffic congestion- continuous doubling of the A650/A65 would be a better use of resources I suspect.
A journey involving a 500m walk is likely to result in people using their cars, or a bus or simply not making the journey, so of course there won't be much in the way of ticket data. The examples given elsewhere of places like London or Glasgow are primarily long distance, not commuting journeys, so not useful comparisons. If a link existed, no one would suggest cutting it, but whether the expense of creating it could ever be justified is a different matter
 

xotGD

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There isn't a constant, ant-like stream of commuters between the two stations is there though?
That's because they are all routed via Leeds, adding to the congestion there with people who don't want to be in Leeds.

A same station change in Bradford or better still through services from the Aire/Wharfe valleys to the Calder Valley and Manchester would get more passengers not having to transit Leeds and also taking people off busy TPE services.
 

61653 HTAFC

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That's because they are all routed via Leeds, adding to the congestion there with people who don't want to be in Leeds.

A same station change in Bradford or better still through services from the Aire/Wharfe valleys to the Calder Valley and Manchester would get more passengers not having to transit Leeds and also taking people off busy TPE services.
People keep asserting this as if it's an undisputed fact, buy nobody has yet produced any evidence to support it. Leeds isn't the best place to change trains (something that should probably have been anticipated when the powers that be decided to clutter up the bridge with coffee shops and bakeries) but it's not that bad.

Certain outer-districts of Bradford will be seeing cuts to their services to the city centre this summer, but people are instead moaning about buffer stops and a short walk across the city. It seems that Baildon and Keighley are only considered part of the city of Bradford when it helps a case for investment by boosting the population.
 
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YorksLad12

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I'm going slightly off-topic, but:

For Bradford the WY Mass Transit scheme prioritises the Leeds Road route via Stanningley and the Spen Valley to Dewsbury via an M62 P&R at Chain Bar. I would assume that there was some research base to choosing those two routes (which may have included ease of construction, of course)
Sure? They've only just finished the statutory consultation, the consultation on route options doesn't start until later this year.

People keep asserting this as if it's an undisputed fact, buy nobody has yet produced any evidence to support it. Leeds isn't the best place to change trains (something that should probably have been anticipated when the powers that be decided to clutter up the bridge with coffee shops and bakeries) but it's not that bad.
The shops were needed to raise revenue to help pay for the southern entrance. Plus, theres not much else train-side now that the sandwich shops have been removed to widen the gate line.

On the "it's only 500m" thing: this is Bradford we're talking about. That's 150m down the valley from Interchange, 350m up the other side. You do it with a dodgy leg, or in a wheelchair, with luggage or kids. Or any combination of that. As we're not going to be combining the stations any time soon, and the Mass Transit is some way off, bringing back a truncated FreeCityBus as a shuttle between the two stations would be a start.
 

61653 HTAFC

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The shops were needed to raise revenue to help pay for the southern entrance. Plus, theres not much else train-side now that the sandwich shops have been removed to widen the gate line.

On the "it's only 500m" thing: this is Bradford we're talking about. That's 150m down the valley from Interchange, 350m up the other side. You do it with a dodgy leg, or in a wheelchair, with luggage or kids. Or any combination of that. As we're not going to be combining the stations any time soon, and the Mass Transit is some way off, bringing back a truncated FreeCityBus as a shuttle between the two stations would be a start.
I'm sure there must have been a better option to raise revenue for the Southern entrance than cluttering up the only way of crossing between the tracks (other than the pathetic and step-only Eastern footbridge)... but then I'm not a consultant, and there's no £££ in doing things sensibly!

I'm not sure of your measurements there, the descent from Interchange platforms (a large chunk of which is by escalator whilst still indoors) only lasts as far as crossing Hall Ings, then you're on the level for a good stretch. The immediate surroundings of Forster Square could be better I agree, as there's no need for a second climb and descent other than that's the way the roads/walkways take you. But BDQ is lower than BDI so I'm not sure how you get a 350m climb.
As you say, bringing back a truncated version of the Free City Bus would be a smart move, as would not giving said service to another cowboy minicab firm... and that would be a far better use of taxpayers money than building a great big viaduct just to make maps look neat and to cure the bufferphobia of a small minority of transit enthusiasts.
 

Bantamzen

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There isn't a constant, ant-like stream of commuters between the two stations is there though? There's just such little evidence of any through demand that it's hard to justify the expense. I wonder if ticket interchanges are tracked?
Well I can tell you that some through tickets don't even work at the Interchange gateline, an example being Balidon - Warrington Bank Quay. So I'm going to guess that the flow isn't tracked. However there is a bigger issue in that most people probably don't use the trains at all for such journeys. You can't track what you don't see.

Would a train line really assist Bradford's road problems? Bradford is actually quite well linked to the local area by rail, just by two stations rather than one. I suspect it's more than just a 500m walk that's leading to traffic congestion- continuous doubling of the A650/A65 would be a better use of resources I suspect.
Yes, better rail links would help the city's chronic congestion problems, although just to be clear I am by no means expecting a cross city link as I have made very clear in this thread. However "continuous doubling" of major roads in the area will only help move the congestion from one area to another, as most main roads around here cannot be doubled without some serious urban remodelling. Which would then lead to question of why would you spend vast amounts of money to do so, when for obvious environmental reasons you should be improving the public transport network.

My guess is that a significant amount (offpeak, when I sometimes drive it) is headed for the M62 east and west, for which the rail equivalent tends to be via Leeds.
This I seriously doubt given the amount of time it can take to get through the Bradford portion of the route. Even via the quickest route a journey from say Burley-in-Wharfedale would take around 50 mins to J26 of the M62 in light traffic, throw in congestion and you can easily add another 30 to that. Frankly it would be a terrible option to make, it would likely be quicker to head for the Leeds Ring Road and head the long way around. At least there more of the route is dual carrigeage, and there are far less lights / bottlenecks to negotiate.

For Bradford the WY Mass Transit scheme prioritises the Leeds Road route via Stanningley and the Spen Valley to Dewsbury via an M62 P&R at Chain Bar. I would assume that there was some research base to choosing those two routes (which may have included ease of construction, of course)
I'm not sure where you are getting that idea from. The latter of those would need considerably more construction than a link between the two Bradford stations.
 

geordieblue

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I'm not sure where you are getting that idea from. The latter of those would need considerably more construction than a link between the two Bradford stations.
Except of course the trackbed is largely clear. It would also serve an actual purpose i.e. communities with no rail connection - hardly the case in Bradford. I still fail to see any particularly useful service that a Bradford Crossrail would provide or any new markets it would bring to rail - Spen Valley on the other hand would be a game changer for Cleckheaton, Liversedge etc. (And probably also Bradford-Dewsbury - but is that regional link less important than Halifax-Keighley, as proponents of Bradford Crossrail might suggest, or is it just less sexy?)
 

Ken H

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@Bantamzen. Worst bit is getting through Saltaire and Shipley.
For most of Airedale and Wharfedale, as well as qmuch of E Bradford, Leeds is a better hub to head for. Bradford will never compete.
Besides, if i were going from Keighley and the Worth Valley towards Manchester I would get the frequent bus to Colne or Burnley, or one of the buses to Halifax or Hebden Bridge.
And there is a Keighley - Haworth-Denholme -Bradford bus if you need the Interchange.
 

Bantamzen

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Except of course the trackbed is largely clear. It would also serve an actual purpose i.e. communities with no rail connection - hardly the case in Bradford. I still fail to see any particularly useful service that a Bradford Crossrail would provide or any new markets it would bring to rail - Spen Valley on the other hand would be a game changer for Cleckheaton, Liversedge etc. (And probably also Bradford-Dewsbury - but is that regional link less important than Halifax-Keighley, as proponents of Bradford Crossrail might suggest, or is it just less sexy?)
Well you may fail to see it, but that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of people who do travel north <> south across Bradford.
 

Neptune

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I’ll be honest, a lot of the comments from people pushing for Bradford Crossrail effectively seem to be saying that people would rather go through Bradford than visit it. Says it all really!
 

30907

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This I seriously doubt given the amount of time it can take to get through the Bradford portion of the route. Even via the quickest route a journey from say Burley-in-Wharfedale would take around 50 mins to J26 of the M62 in light traffic, throw in congestion and you can easily add another 30 to that. Frankly it would be a terrible option to make, it would likely be quicker to head for the Leeds Ring Road and head the long way around. At least there more of the route is dual carrigeage, and there are far less lights / bottlenecks to negotiate.
Living in Airedale, I didn't have Wharefedale in mind - yes, Guiseley and beyond to M1 is Leeds Ring Road, but not to Huddersfield or further West according to Googlemaps. Airedale is generally quickest via Bradford, even from Keighley.
Well you may fail to see it, but that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of people who do travel north <> south across Bradford.
Yes there are, certainly, but the question is where from and to - is there a big flow to (say) Halifax and beyond from Shipley etc, or is it much more diffuse?

Actually, I wonder if a tram route Dewsbury-Bradford might be extended as tram-train to Ilkley - the lower top speed wouldn't matter too much. I think you might want grade separation at Shipley Leeds Jn-Dockfield Jn though.
 

61653 HTAFC

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I’ll be honest, a lot of the comments from people pushing for Bradford Crossrail effectively seem to be saying that people would rather go through Bradford than visit it. Says it all really!
Careful... I pointed that out last time this discussion came up and was accused of being anti-Bradford. Must be the username I guess.
 

lachlan

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Makes you think though doesn’t it.
What point are you trying to make?Many journeys are suburb to suburb and not necessarily to a city centre. Chances are these are made by bus, driving, or not at all because of the split in the railway network.
 

yoyothehobo

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Very few journeys are suburb to suburb. Nearly all are suburb to city centre. Just look at the amount of people getting on the trains at places like New Pudsey, Bramley, Garforth in the morning to those getting off there. It is in the ratio of roughly 50:1 at times. Vice versa in the evenings.

Think of the problem this way round.

If the line between Forster Square and Shipley didnt exist and was built over and had never existed and was in completely unsuitable terrain would it be worthwhile extending it?

It just shouts that it looks neat on a map and not much else.

And loop services are again something that looks nice on paper and then are just awful in real life.
 

Bantamzen

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Living in Airedale, I didn't have Wharefedale in mind - yes, Guiseley and beyond to M1 is Leeds Ring Road, but not to Huddersfield or further West according to Googlemaps. Airedale is generally quickest via Bradford, even from Keighley.

Yes there are, certainly, but the question is where from and to - is there a big flow to (say) Halifax and beyond from Shipley etc, or is it much more diffuse?

Actually, I wonder if a tram route Dewsbury-Bradford might be extended as tram-train to Ilkley - the lower top speed wouldn't matter too much. I think you might want grade separation at Shipley Leeds Jn-Dockfield Jn though.
I think the aspiration would be for a tram-train solution, with a street link between the two stations and the north-bound services heading towards a new airport route. This would then allow interchanging at Forster Square or Shipley for services along the Aire & Wharfe valleys. But this even if rubber stamped this year would be 10-15 years away at least.

Careful... I pointed that out last time this discussion came up and was accused of being anti-Bradford. Must be the username I guess.
Well you do follow that team, so, you know..... ;)
 
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