SWR Class 458 to be retained

[AM9]

The problem with the latter is there is, or at least was (*), a massive political issue with Portsmouth Direct users disliking the 450s, presumably mainly because of the 2+3 seating.

* I add this as a qualification, as I’m unsure if this is still a massive issue, or whether the bulk of the people who agitated when the 450s first appeared some years ago have now retired or now “work” from home.

Personally I have mixed views on this. I can get that the 450s aren’t great when all seats are occupied, and Portsmouth to London is a pretty long journey. However the flip side of the coin is that the extra capacity was valuable. I’ve done London to Portsmouth on a 450 and found the experience fine, but to be fair that was on a lightly loaded contra-peak 12-car, so not really the full experience.

There is this attitude from some groups of commuters that if you travel from a 'city' near the periphery of the London commuting area, there is some sort of entitlement to what they reagard as an inter-city layout in trains. Yet there are complaints that journey times take too long. Dwell time are extended wherever the fasts stop with end doors and there is no partiular need for end doors especially if there is no trolley sevice.
As for journey times, I don't know how many travel all the way from both Portsmouth stations and Havant, but certainly Petersfield to London isless than 75 minutes so no more requiring 'IC' layouts than trains from London Bridge, Liverpool St and Euston. Then there's the Alton lot!!

 

[bramling]

There is this attitude from some groups of commuters that if you travel from a 'city' near the periphery of the London commuting area, there is some sort of entitlement to what they reagard as an inter-city layout in trains. Yet there are complaints that journey times take too long. Dwell time are extended wherever the fasts stop with end doors and there is no partiular need for end doors especially if there is no trolley sevice.
As for journey times, I don't know how many travel all the way from both Portsmouth stations and Havant, but certainly Petersfield to London isless than 75 minutes so no more requiring 'IC' layouts than trains from London Bridge, Liverpool St and Euston. Then there's the Alton lot!!

I don’t think end doors are the big issue, though we could turn out to be wrong on that when we see the reaction to the 458s if they ever appear. I suspect it was more an issue with the 3+2. As I say, my views on that are mixed, but I’m not sure what other solution was viable when it came to providing seats for Guildford passengers. Those from the likes of Petersfield are a little unfortunate in having Guildford on the journey, but equally Guildford has always been there so they can’t really complain too much.

I’ve always thought that a 2+2 sub fleet of 450s would have been the compromise, albeit not sure how workable as I suspect over time they would never stay on the right diagrams, as has tended to happen with similar sub fleets. In essence this is what they’re now getting, albeit with 458s, if it ever happens of course. I always thought the 442 resurrection was daft because of the end doors.

 

[Doomotron]

I always thought the 442 resurrection was daft because of the end doors.

To be fair I think that was the least of the issues... The retractioning issues and in particular the fact they'd need to be withdrawn in a few years anyway due to PRM restrictions strike me as larger issues that put the entire point of the project into question.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Surely better to give the 175min Weymouth services the 444s with their end doors with the few spares to assist the Portsmouth runs.

What 175min Weymouth services don’t already have 444s? And they can’t run in pairs beyond Poole.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Feb 2023 ==

I’ve always thought that a 2+2 sub fleet of 450s would have been the compromise, albeit not sure how workable as I suspect over time they would never stay on the right diagrams, as has tended to happen with similar sub fleets. In essence this is what they’re now getting, albeit with 458s, if it ever happens of course. I always thought the 442 resurrection was daft because of the end doors.

An idea that must have been brought up well over fifty times on this forum by now!

 

[pompeyfan]

What 175min Weymouth services don’t already have 444s? And they can’t run in pairs beyond Poole.

You can run 10 cars west of Poole, but only with permission from Network Rail on an ad-hoc, as required basis. There was a 10 car last month due to some sort of disruptive incident.

An idea that must have been brought up well over fifty times on this forum by now!

It’s almost as if it makes more sense. With the timespans etc, the 350/2s will have become available. Yes there would have been issues and costs but nothing worse than the 458 and 442 project. Isn’t hindsight wonderful.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It’s almost as if it makes more sense. With the timespans etc, the 350/2s will have become available. Yes there would have been issues and costs but nothing worse than the 458 and 442 project. Isn’t hindsight wonderful.

Don’t you think they’d have done it if it’d had been the most feasible option though? If it’s an idea that almost every enthusiast can think of, it’s almost definitely occurred to the bigwigs at SWR, and for some reason they’ve not gone with that, so there’s probably a reason. We know Porterbrook charge astronomical leasing fees for a start, and SWR’s current Desiros are also owned by Angel Trains.

Besides, the 458s were probably offered a dirt cheap lease.

Anyway it’s all pie-in-the-sky when the Juniper conversion is the chosen and happening plan!

 

[Goldfish62]

Anyway it’s all pie-in-the-sky when the Juniper conversion is the chosen and happening plan!

Exactly. It's happening and that is that!

The departure of 458505 to Widnes is confirmation that the plan isn't "paused" contrary to the rumour mill.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Exactly. It's happening and that is that!

The departure of 458505 to Widnes is confirmation that the plan isn't "paused" contrary to the rumour mill.

It’s slightly disappointing when the industry is being kicked on all fronts to manage costs seeing this still going ahead.

Having 458s disappear off before 701s are in traffic isn’t helpful and it’s clearly apparent when the 701s are all in traffic there will be too much stock. Add to that all the training costs for 458s…

 

[gabrielhj07]

Personally I have mixed views on this. I can get that the 450s aren’t great when all seats are occupied, and Portsmouth to London is a pretty long journey. However the flip side of the coin is that the extra capacity was valuable. I’ve done London to Portsmouth on a 450 and found the experience fine, but to be fair that was on a lightly loaded contra-peak 12-car, so not really the full experience.

The 450s aren't a bad train on which to do that journey, especially when it's quiet, but pitting them against the 444s makes them seem worse than they are.

 

[DelW]

The 450s aren't a bad train on which to do that journey, especially when it's quiet, but pitting them against the 444s makes them seem worse than they are.

Broadly speaking, standard class in a 444 is equivalent to first class in a 450, both in terms of seat spacing and comfort, and vestibule screens and doors. Although the 3+2 seating in the 450s is the most frequent complaint, the doors direct into standard class saloons on 450s mean that cold air rushes in at every station in winter (and hot in summer, though that's less of an issue). SWT / SWR could have installed screens, or reduced the time until doors auto-close, but they haven't, and that remains a source of complaints.

 

[Goldfish62]

Broadly speaking, standard class in a 444 is equivalent to first class in a 450, both in terms of seat spacing and comfort, and vestibule screens and doors. Although the 3+2 seating in the 450s is the most frequent complaint, the doors direct into standard class saloons on 450s mean that cold air rushes in at every station in winter (and hot in summer, though that's less of an issue). SWT / SWR could have installed screens, or reduced the time until doors auto-close, but they haven't, and that remains a source of complaints.

The doors auto close on the 458s much quicker, although they don't have sensors so they often trap people!

Hopefully the heating will be upgraded as it's never been great on really cold days.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It’s slightly disappointing when the industry is being kicked on all fronts to manage costs seeing this still going ahead.

Having 458s disappear off before 701s are in traffic isn’t helpful and it’s clearly apparent when the 701s are all in traffic there will be too much stock. Add to that all the training costs for 458s…

Frankly, the bed SWR made by ordering the 701s I think they should now lie on. That means the last 707s going too. Why is it Southeastern should deal with the consequences of SWR’s choice instead of SWR?

 

[pompeyfan]

To my understanding the 458 program is and is not paused, SWR/Porterbrook are contractually tied in to converting 3 units. These 3 units will make their way to Bournemouth eventually and will receive shakedown and some crew training for evaluation. Whether or not they’ll see service is another matter.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

To my understanding the 458 program is and is not paused, SWR/Porterbrook are contractually tied in to converting 3 units. These 3 units will make their way to Bournemouth eventually and will receive shakedown and some crew training for evaluation. Whether or not they’ll see service is another matter.

Thanks for the update

 

[Phil R]

Broadly speaking, standard class in a 444 is equivalent to first class in a 450, both in terms of seat spacing and comfort, and vestibule screens and doors. Although the 3+2 seating in the 450s is the most frequent complaint, the doors direct into standard class saloons on 450s mean that cold air rushes in at every station in winter (and hot in summer, though that's less of an issue). SWT / SWR could have installed screens, or reduced the time until doors auto-close, but they haven't, and that remains a source of complaints.

Standard in a 444 is equivalent to 1st in a 450 before they were refurbished, I'd say. The refurb of both classes' FC is terrible (slippery non-recline seats in a claustrophobic cabin) such that 444 standard is superior.

An issue with 450s to many PDL users (myself included) is the lack of tables and limited number of airline seats. However it remains to be seen how the refurbed 458s will compare. I suspect the ride quality might not compare well though.

 

[DelW]

Standard in a 444 is equivalent to 1st in a 450 before they were refurbished, I'd say. The refurb of both classes' FC is terrible (slippery non-recline seats in a claustrophobic cabin) such that 444 standard is superior.

An issue with 450s to many PDL users (myself included) is the lack of tables and limited number of airline seats. However it remains to be seen how the refurbed 458s will compare. I suspect the ride quality might not compare well though.

Yes, I agree that the refurb significantly reduced the quality of first class - I even wonder if that may have contributed a bit to the lower sales of f-c season tickets.

I occasionally used to pay the extra for first if I was travelling at a busy time and was fairly sure I'd be on a 444 - the main saloon with 2+1 was worth the extra. Since the refurb, the small f-c sections looked so poor that I haven't used them at all, even though I don't much like standard in the 450s - I just try to catch 444s whenever I can.

I think that if the 458s ever arrive (which I rather doubt) they're likely to have similar poor quality first in a poky coach-end. Though I'd like to be proved wrong on both counts!

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Yes, I agree that the refurb significantly reduced the quality of first class - I even wonder if that may have contributed a bit to the lower sales of f-c season tickets.

I occasionally used to pay the extra for first if I was travelling at a busy time and was fairly sure I'd be on a 444 - the main saloon with 2+1 was worth the extra. Since the refurb, the small f-c sections looked so poor that I haven't used them at all, even though I don't much like standard in the 450s - I just try to catch 444s whenever I can.

I think that if the 458s ever arrive (which I rather doubt) they're likely to have similar poor quality first in a poky coach-end. Though I'd like to be proved wrong on both counts!

Assuming First Class stays on SWR - DfT may choose to go down a similar road to South Eastern and abolish it.

 

[Snow1964]

I’ve always thought that a 2+2 sub fleet of 450s would have been the compromise, albeit not sure how workable as I suspect over time they would never stay on the right diagrams, as has tended to happen with similar sub fleets. In essence this is what they’re now getting, albeit with 458s, if it ever happens of course. I always thought the 442 resurrection was daft because of the end doors.

Quite why the 458s (with their 3+2) seating were not dedicated to the Alton line, Basingstoke stoppers and peak hour trains to Haslemere were more of a mystery. Effectively keeping the small fleet in a limited area or for peak hour extras.

The released 450s could then have become a sub fleet with 2+2 seats.

With hindsight the lack of 2+2 seated trains really goes back to when the 450 order was amended from 100 to 110 units, and then amended again with extra 17 units. Had more 444s been added instead of 27 extra 450s would have been enough for Portsmouth fasts. But of course at the time plan was to have 442s in the fleet.

 

[Mzzzs]

I feel like maybe it would have been better that instead of 458 when they refreshed the 450s so they have 2+2 seating with tables that would have definitely benefited more people.

 

[Flange Squeal]

Quite why the 458s (with their 3+2) seating were not dedicated to the Alton line, Basingstoke stoppers and peak hour trains to Haslemere were more of a mystery. Effectively keeping the small fleet in a limited area or for peak hour extras.

The released 450s could then have become a sub fleet with 2+2 seats.

With hindsight the lack of 2+2 seated trains really goes back to when the 450 order was amended from 100 to 110 units, and then amended again with extra 17 units. Had more 444s been added instead of 27 extra 450s would have been enough for Portsmouth fasts. But of course at the time plan was to have 442s in the fleet.

Could possibly have been down to selective door operation (SDO) that would be needed at stations such as Bentley (for 8+ cars) or Clapham Junction, Ash Vale, Alton, Winchfield and Hook if you ran them as 12s? Prior to their mid-2010s /5 conversion which included the fitment of an automatic system (ASDO) and gangway modifications, the original manual system could only be operated by Farnham and Woking based Guards on the weekday peak hours Aldershot to London Waterloo via Frimley services as the original gangways between joined units were deemed unfit for use by passengers. As a result the rear unit was to be emptied prior to using the SDO system - in the morning the Waterloo bound workings came empty from Farnham Shed so the Guard would activate it prior to releasing the doors at Aldershot and deactivate it prior to releasing the doors at Ascot, while in the evening on the Aldershot bound return workings the rear unit would have to be emptied of passengers at Ascot before the system activated for the final leg of the journey down. This was why only 4 coaches were ever opened at Aldershot and Ash Vale on these services despite both stations being able to accommodate 8 carriages. The 458/0 fleet's main workings by this time, as two 4 cars between Guildford and Ascot and 8 cars on the Waterloo to Reading route, had no short platforms enroute or any need for 12 car trains in the peak.

 

[DelW]

Assuming First Class stays on SWR - DfT may choose to go down a similar road to South Eastern and abolish it.

I think it might well be sensible to eliminate it everywhere east of the South Western main line, especially if it's no longer bringing in much revenue. So I'd also remove the first class from the North Downs, where it appears and disappears almost with every timetable change and is rarely if ever enforced, and from Southern with their ridiculous version where first has exactly the same seating as standard, but with antimacassars.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I think it might well be sensible to eliminate it everywhere east of the South Western main line, especially if it's no longer bringing in much revenue. So I'd also remove the first class from the North Downs, where it appears and disappears almost with every timetable change and is rarely if ever enforced, and from Southern with their ridiculous version where first has exactly the same seating as standard, but with antimacassars.

Connex SC were going to ditch it but when they fell by the wayside it never got followed through. At least on 444's it used to be worthwhile FC although as refurbed its not as good. Reality is it is largely only ever been used by the well heeled stockbroker belt community on season tickets but that looks a thing of the past now. Also despite having gratis FC myself its more and more likely to invaded these days especially on stock where it has the only 3 pin sockets and generally avoid it late at night. I don't blame conductors on their own not wanting to enforce it so im accepting that it will disappear from all commuter routes as why would anybody want to pay for it anymore. As an aside Southern used to be ruthless with FC enforcement 10 years or so back especially in the rush hour with revenue protection backed up by a security firm but i believe they were warned off the aggressive approach on trains that were heavily overloaded (those were teh days!)

 

[bramling]

Connex SC were going to ditch it but when they fell by the wayside it never got followed through. At least on 444's it used to be worthwhile FC although as refurbed its not as good. Reality is it is largely only ever been used by the well heeled stockbroker belt community on season tickets but that looks a thing of the past now. Also despite having gratis FC myself its more and more likely to invaded these days especially on stock where it has the only 3 pin sockets and generally avoid it late at night. I don't blame conductors on their own not wanting to enforce it so im accepting that it will disappear from all commuter routes as why would anybody want to pay for it anymore. As an aside Southern used to be ruthless with FC enforcement 10 years or so back especially in the rush hour with revenue protection backed up by a security firm but i believe they were warned off the aggressive approach on trains that were heavily overloaded (those were teh days!)

Certainly pre-Covid the Petersfield lot would have rioted in the streets if first was abolished. Is there still a significant first business from there now?

 

[D6130]

Certainly pre-Covid the Petersfield lot would have rioted in the streets if first was abolished.

The Haslemere crowd even more so. Back in the mid-1970s, when I was first working on the Southern Region, Halsemere and Haywards Heath used to be neck-and-neck with the highest number of first class season ticket issues in the Region.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It’s almost as if it makes more sense. With the timespans etc, the 350/2s will have become available. Yes there would have been issues and costs but nothing worse than the 458 and 442 project. Isn’t hindsight wonderful.

I'm not sure there's a causal link between how sensible an idea is, and how frequently it gets brought up on here. You only have to look at Bradford Crossrail and Skipton to Colne (or indeed Tweedbank to Carlisle) to see that!

 

[Invincible]

Assuming First Class stays on SWR - DfT may choose to go down a similar road to South Eastern and abolish it.

Earlier there were pictures of the new 458 first class seats, so currently SWR are planning to keep them on the longer distance trains.

I feel like maybe it would have been better that instead of 458 when they refreshed the 450s so they have 2+2 seating with tables that would have definitely benefited more people.

But would have restricted use of 450s in the outer suburban areas where the 3+2 seats are preferred so standard class passengers can be more assured of getting a seat peaktime.
Refurbishing the 458s, which already have 2+2 seats, and some life left, for the longer distance trains, see are probably more cost effective. Depending if the refurbished 3 458 units from Widnes pass the tests and acceptance by SWR?.
Ideally the PDL will need new express trains, which might happen in 10 years time when the 458s will be end of life?.

 

[Mikey C]

Was consideration ever given to having mixed seating on the 450s - 2+2 at the ends, 3+2 in the middle - as with some 375s and 377s?

 

[Goldfish62]

To my understanding the 458 program is and is not paused, SWR/Porterbrook are contractually tied in to converting 3 units. These 3 units will make their way to Bournemouth eventually and will receive shakedown and some crew training for evaluation. Whether or not they’ll see service is another matter.

A private Facebook group has photos of 458516 being moved by road from Wimbledon apparently to Widnes yesterday so make that 4 units!

 

[444045]

A private Facebook group has photos of 458516 being moved by road from Wimbledon apparently to Widnes yesterday so make that 4 units!

Yesterday on SWR Fleet Withdrawl page, @WarrenTManager said that coach 67606 off U.458506 was going by lorry to Brodies
for some repair work and was being loaded as he spoke, post #1,315 if that helps at all.

 

[Goldfish62]

Yesterday on SWR Fleet Withdrawl page, @WarrenTManager said that coach 67606 off U.458506 was going by lorry to Brodies
for some repair work and was being loaded as he spoke, post #1,315 if that helps at all.

Thanks - missed that!