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Loco-Hauling vs Multiple Units for InterCity Operations.

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Sorcerer

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So I was surprised to see that there wasn't a thread dedicated to this particular subject, but if there is then I do apologise for missing it. That said I should make clear that in this thread I am not trying to start a discussion about what you prefer, but rather I would like to discuss the advantages and disadvantages of both loco-hauled units and multiple units (be that diesel or electric etc.) and which one is better for use in InterCity operations. The reasons for talking about that sector specifically will be touched upon shortly.

For loco-hauled units, there are advantages of easier maintenance since all of the train's power is centralised to one vehicle, and in the case of a failure said vehicle can be easily replaced with minimal shunting movements where passengers won't need to evacuate the train compared to multiple units where failure can result in the need to swap an entire unit, though this is somewhat mitigated if there is more than one unit formation, though that comes with the cost of overcrowding. Loco-hauled units are also flexible where if more power is needed you can always add another or a more powerful engine, and in every case because there is no undercarriage traction power the passenger saloon areas will almost always be quieter, especially in the case of DMUs.

For multiple units though, there are advantages of faster acceleration and higher power-to-weight ratio due to the multiple traction motors spread throughout the train, and this also gives them greater adhesion on gradients. The turnaround times are also faster than a loco-hauled unit because all that is required is to switch cab ends. Two coupled units also make it easier to split trains mid-journey due to not needing to find another locomotive to take the coaches that are left behind at a station. Multiple units also have lighter axle loads and thus will be able to travel on lighter tracks where heavy locomotives may be banned. This also reduces track wear over time thanks to the lighter axle loads, which can be a huge advantage in the long term maintenance costs.

With the advantages and disadvantages in mind it seems like both types of trains are beneficial in different ways and are suited to different types of train usage. For freight trains which don't need the fast turnaround times or particularly fast acceleration, the perks of a multiple unit are very much moot and therefore loco-haulage is more suitable due to the greater flexibility and easier maintenance. In fact having a multiple unit would be detrimental due to the fact that the wagons would lose space by having traction motors on the wheel bogies. Meanwhile, the opposite is very much the case for suburban commuter rail where fast turnaround time is needed, quick acceleration is key to the consistent stop-start service patterns, and where multiple units can be coupled together and split later on in a journey without spending too much time preparing a new loco or signalling new movements for one at a station on a busy route. Multiple units are very much ideal for such operations as well as light metro rapid transit systems.

But for InterCity style operations, this is where I'm not so sure. For one, InterCity operations do not require the same rapid acceleration rates as commuter style operations, but they may operate on otherwise very busy routes such as the West Coast Main Line and so still benefit from faster acceleration. But otherwise neither option seems truly better than the other. Turnaround times will not be as fast as commuter trains, and even though some loco-hauled units will require shunting movements, there are push-pull units such as the Class 68 and MK5 coaches for TPE that share the advantage of fast turnaround times for multiple units but also come with the setback of a fixed formation which means it won't be as easy to switch locos as it would in a non push-pull unit. That said, modern locos are very reliable and so breakdown concerns aren't demonstrably big enough to warrant not using fixed-formation loco-hauled units. Furthermore modern powerful locomotives can easily match the power of a multiple unit on steep inclines.

Ultimately though I am still not quite so sure. What exactly determines whether an InterCity operator will use loco-hauled units or multiple units for their operations? It is very clear that both have their unique advantages, much to the point that the Nova fleet for TPE was a mixture of loco-hauled and EMUs, and why many European operators such as SBB and OBB use a mixture for their long distance intercity operations. Even high-speed rail has a mixed usage such as all SNCF TGV stock and the Renfe Class 100 and 102s being a loco-hauled unit with power cars on each end, and the Siemens Velaro, Alstom AGV and Zefiro fleets being high-speed EMUs. Tilting trains may be the only time multiple units have an advantage since the Pendolino tile of 8 degrees is greater than the Avelia Liberty coach tilt of 6.3 degrees, but then the differences there may not be related to the traction distribution at all, and even if it were tilting trains are a very specific niche market anyway and thus doesn't really have a huge impact on the entire debate in my opinion.

So ultimately, what exactly is it that determines whether or not an operator will use a loco-hauled unit or multiple unit stock for long-distance intercity operations? Does line capacity play a part in it? Does the power source (ie. diesel or electric) also play a part in the choice? Or is it quite simply down to operator preferences? Do operators simply choose what units they want based on things such as price or preferences?
 
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TT-ONR-NRN

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I definitely think whether or not the service requires diesel operation or not is a big factor, as you cannot make the “uncomfortable underfloor engines” argument in defense of locomotives for entirely electric fleet, and in any case having to accommodate a locomotive on a platform could end up reducing how long or how many carriages you can have.
 

Bletchleyite

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I definitely think whether or not the service requires diesel operation or not is a big factor, as you cannot make the “uncomfortable underfloor engines” argument in defense of locomotives for entirely electric fleet, and in any case having to accommodate a locomotive on a platform could end up reducing how long or how many carriages you can have.

I would be inclined to agree. There are few arguments against EMUs, but DMUs have the noise issue, though some modern ones like 80x insulate it quite well.
 

Domh245

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For loco-hauled units, there are advantages of easier maintenance since all of the train's power is centralised to one vehicle, and in the case of a failure said vehicle can be easily replaced with minimal shunting movements where passengers won't need to evacuate the train compared to multiple units where failure can result in the need to swap an entire unit, though this is somewhat mitigated if there is more than one unit formation, though that comes with the cost of overcrowding.

Counter point - if the one vehicle with traction power fails (or even has a failure in one system) whilst in service then the train is going nowhere, whilst on an EMU with distributed traction there's a decent chance that you'd be able to limp it to the next station/convenient location (or even carry on in service depending on the failure!)

But for InterCity style operations, this is where I'm not so sure. For one, InterCity operations do not require the same rapid acceleration rates as commuter style operations, but they may operate on otherwise very busy routes such as the West Coast Main Line and so still benefit from faster acceleration.

On busier intercity routes (ie just about all of them at least for the first 20+ miles out of London) the fast acceleration is necessary these days to enable intercity and "semi-fast" commuter services!

It is very clear that both have their unique advantages, much to the point that the Nova fleet for TPE was a mixture of loco-hauled and EMUs

Ah, the Nova 3 debacle. Only procured because "LCHS" would be easy and quick to get into service rather than any actual operational advantage (which promptly backfired)
 

Speed43125

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I think in the UK the mood is definitely towards EMUs and DMUs. Track access charges are based significantly on axle load, and an MU spreads the much load better*. You only have to look at TPE to see the reluctance to use LHCS even when there are serviceable trains availiable.

Abroad however, you have the liked of SNCB and SNCF continuing to procure new build quasi 'loco hauled' stock (eg. M7 and TGV M). The former is capable both to work both as LHCS as well as a self powered unit. In double decker stock its very difficult to find space to fit all the traction equipment needed for an EMU so it can make sense to continue with separate locomotives.

I seem to recall that when the Czechs got their RailJets, there were some commentators (possibly opposition politicians? - and not eg. engineers or railway professionals etc) who were arguing that the new trains were 'at least' Push-pull sets, but EMUs would have been better. I don't know if there's possibly a political preference for a seemingly more modern technology that perhaps shares characteristics with many HSR trainsets?

*interestingly the 745s only have Jacobs bogies between pairs of carriages with conventional wheelsets at the opposite ends, due in part to the higher axle loads you'd get from the otherwise advantageous reduction in rolling resistance through having fewer wheelsets.

Ah, the Nova 3 debacle. Only procured because "LCHS" would be easy and quick to get into service rather than any actual operational advantage (which promptly backfired)
At least it makes the occasional DRS freight working have a properly cracking looking loco on the front!
 

43096

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I seem to recall that when the Czechs got their RailJets, there were some commentators (possibly opposition politicians? - and not eg. engineers or railway professionals etc) who were arguing that the new trains were 'at least' Push-pull sets, but EMUs would have been better. I don't know if there's possibly a political preference for a seemingly more modern technology that perhaps shares characteristics with many HSR trainsets?
It looks like those commentators lost the debate, as CD have ordered 20 "RailJet" sets and 50 230km/h Vectrons to go with them.
 

ac6000cw

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*interestingly the 745s only have Jacobs bogies between pairs of carriages with conventional wheelsets at the opposite ends, due in part to the higher axle loads you'd get from the otherwise advantageous reduction in rolling resistance through having fewer wheelsets.
The 755s (vs 745s) are more articulated e.g. a 4-car unit has 3 fully articulated vehicles in the centre (2 passenger + 1 power pod). The normal bogies at the ends of the unit are the only powered ones, with the traction equipment above them (behind the cabs).

I remember reading somewhere that Stadler said that one reason for not having more articulation in the 745s was because it reduced the compressibility/elastic energy absorption of the train in the event of a collision. Less articulation also gives you more places to split a unit for maintenance if needed (the 745s are formed of two 6-car sections anyway).
 

gabrielhj07

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The turnaround times are also faster than a loco-hauled unit because all that is required is to switch cab ends.
there are push-pull units such as the Class 68 and MK5 coaches for TPE
That problem solves itself then.



Speaking solely as a passenger, this;
there is no undercarriage traction power the passenger saloon areas will almost always be quieter,
is why I prefer travelling on LHCS.
 

Sorcerer

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On busier intercity routes (ie just about all of them at least for the first 20+ miles out of London) the fast acceleration is necessary these days to enable intercity and "semi-fast" commuter services!
I figured that may have been the case given how many journeys stop and start in London. Even with dedicated fast lines capacity is at a premium.

That problem solves itself then.
It solves the problem of turnaround time but the trade-off is that push-pull are fixed formations which makes them less flexible than "proper" loco-hauled units. In general they have a mixture of advantages and disadvantages from both loco-hauled and multiple unit stocks which I think makes them an interesting case.
 

Snow1964

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Maintenance is lot harder on a long DMU formation, than one big loco, and as mentioned above can get noise and vibration.

There is also a threshold (not sure of the time or distance) where the cost of lugging around diesel engines on a bi-mode on electric adds so much extra fuel, is cheaper to swap locos at system changeovers, and use hauled stock. There is an operating inconvenience factor too in the calculation.
 

zwk500

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It solves the problem of turnaround time but the trade-off is that push-pull are fixed formations which makes them less flexible than "proper" loco-hauled units. In general they have a mixture of advantages and disadvantages from both loco-hauled and multiple unit stocks which I think makes them an interesting case.
Nowadays as Station pilots are gone a normal Loco-hauled set wouldn't be any more flexible than a DVT set.
 

norbitonflyer

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Loco haulage has an advantage where a traction change is necessary, as you are not lugging around redundant equipment as you would be with a hybrid, which costs both in capital expenditure and in running costs (more to maintain, and extra weight).
 

zwk500

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Loco haulage has an advantage where a traction change is necessary, as you are not lugging around redundant equipment as you would be with a hybrid, which costs both in capital expenditure and in running costs (more to maintain, and extra weight).
But a traction change does incur a time and staffing penalty.
 

norbitonflyer

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Loco-hauled units are also flexible where if more power is needed you can always add another or a more powerful engine,
On the contrary - with loco haulage, if you add more carriages you need a bigger loco - but with a multiple unit, the extra power comes with the extra carriages.

But a traction change does incur a time and staffing penalty.
Swings and roundabouts - the longer the electric segment of the journey, the greater the advantage of adding a diesel engine at the limit of electrification instead of bringing it with you. (Similar argument for carrying current collection gear, especially transformers, over non-electrified track, although the weight penalty is less so the balance point will be different).

Has anyone ever thought of having a diesel locomotive that can feed power to thge motors of an electric train, thus giving the advantages of distributed power without having to take the loco itself over the electrified section of the route?
 
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zwk500

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Swings and roundabouts - the longer the electric segment of the journey, the greater the advantage of adding a diesel engine at the limit of electrification instead of bringing it with you. (Similar argument for carrying current collection gear, especially transformers, over non-electrified track, although the weight penalty is less so the balance point will be different).
Indeed. Weighing all these things up is an art.
Has anyone ever thought of having a diesel locomotive that can feed power to thge motors of an electric train, thus giving the advantages of distributed power without having to take the loco itself over the electrified section of the route?
You'd need a sizeable power bus across the coupling to do so. Certainly possible, but is it worth it? Presumably if the advantages of distributed power are needed, then the case for electrification is also reasonable?
 

43096

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On the contrary - with loco haulage, if you add more carriages you need a bigger loco - but with a multiple unit, the extra power comes with the extra carriages.
It depends on how powerful the loco is. Hang 12 coaches on the back of a Taurus and it will have them up to 125mph in no time, just as it would with 6 coaches.

Loco-hauled makes it much easier to add and remove coaches for maintenance (or to meet demand). One defect and the whole set is out for a multiple unit - loco hauled, you cut the vehicle out (or change the loco).
 

Andrew*Debbie

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having to accommodate a locomotive on a platform could end up reducing how long or how many carriages you can have.

Most stations the locomotive could stop beyond the end of the platform.
The terminus stations I have been to have very long platforms.

How long are the longest locomotive hauled diagrams? Caledonian sleeper is 8 carriages, I think.
 

6Gman

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Most stations the locomotive could stop beyond the end of the platform.
The terminus stations I have been to have very long platforms.

How long are the longest locomotive hauled diagrams? Caledonian sleeper is 8 carriages, I think.
They can stop beyond the platform end, but not beyond the relevant signal.

Liverpool Lime Street and Manchester Piccadilly are, I think, pretty tight already for 11 car Pendolinos.

And the Sleepers are a lot more than 8 out of Euston.
 

zwk500

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How long are the longest locomotive hauled diagrams? Caledonian sleeper is 8 carriages, I think.
Caledonian Sleeper is 16 carriages + Loco when fully formed. At Euston the platform signal allows the 2nd loco onto the back. Very few stations can take that length - if the Sleeper runs from King's Cross it has to shorten the formation.

HSTs could be CL.43 + up to 9 + Cl.43, and IC225 were (are?) Cl.91 (or 90) + 9 + DVT. Historically I believe Loco + 13 could happen in the pre-DVT era.
 

Sorcerer

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On the contrary - with loco haulage, if you add more carriages you need a bigger loco - but with a multiple unit, the extra power comes with the extra carriages.
This depends on the kind of loco being used, and there are some very powerful units out there.
Liverpool Lime Street and Manchester Piccadilly are, I think, pretty tight already for 11 car Pendolinos.
You're right to think that. Liverpool Lime Street is especially tight because the cab is almost right up on the starting signal at platforms 6, 9 and 10. Manchester Piccadilly seems to have a bit more room but not by much, especially not enough to accommodate another coach.
 

Richard Scott

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Most stations the locomotive could stop beyond the end of the platform.
The terminus stations I have been to have very long platforms.

How long are the longest locomotive hauled diagrams? Caledonian sleeper is 8 carriages, I think.
And there's a very good reason why it's loco hauled and not unit type stock!
 

HamworthyGoods

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It depends on how powerful the loco is. Hang 12 coaches on the back of a Taurus and it will have them up to 125mph in no time, just as it would with 6 coaches.

Loco-hauled makes it much easier to add and remove coaches for maintenance (or to meet demand). One defect and the whole set is out for a multiple unit - loco hauled, you cut the vehicle out (or change the loco).

However you need more vehicles in the first place as each set has an extra set (the loco) so may or may not be more efficient.

Swapping vehicles in and out for maintenance seems to work well in some cases (the NIR/IE Enterprise) or in other cases operators find it better to keep the set of stock as a fixed formation anyway (OBB railjets) so the only loosing one vehicle for a defect is lost. It’s interesting to see the new OBB nightjet stock is fixed formation sets which is quite a new concept for overnight sets. I don’t think they are having spare vehicles to swap in and out but I stand to be corrected!

As traction packs have become smaller it seems to be getting harder to argue for a separate prime mover aka the loco. The trend for this is apparent in Germany where you know have cl445 DOSTO power cars instead of separate locos.

Trains that require bespoke portion working or multiple traction changes do continue to lend themselves to locos and stock.
 

O L Leigh

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Has anyone ever thought of having a diesel locomotive that can feed power to thge motors of an electric train, thus giving the advantages of distributed power without having to take the loco itself over the electrified section of the route?

Sort of. The Buenos Aires Great Southern Railway operated something of this sort during the 1930s. The coaches were formed up into 5 or 8 car sets with a driving cab at one end in push-pull manner, but each car had it's own pair of traction motors. Power for these came from diesel-electric "mobile power houses", which were essentially locomotives that could supply power to the train. Armstrong-Whitworth in Newcastle-upon-Tyne supplied a number of these.

Most stations the locomotive could stop beyond the end of the platform.
The terminus stations I have been to have very long platforms.

Not necessarily. The loco has to be within the starter signal which means that the entire train still needs to be accommodated between the buffers and the signal. As explained above, this potentially robs capacity because you lose platform space by having to accommodate the loco and DVT (if push-pull) which do not carry passengers.

Loco haulage has an advantage where a traction change is necessary, as you are not lugging around redundant equipment as you would be with a hybrid, which costs both in capital expenditure and in running costs (more to maintain, and extra weight).

I agree up to a point. In reality, this is the argument against bi-mode rolling stock rather than an argument for loco-haulage. Traction changeovers are lengthy and eat up capacity, what with all the shunting about getting in the way of other arrivals and departures.

For loco-hauled units, there are advantages of easier maintenance since all of the train's power is centralised to one vehicle, and in the case of a failure said vehicle can be easily replaced with minimal shunting movements where passengers won't need to evacuate the train compared to multiple units where failure can result in the need to swap an entire unit

That assumes that the loco has "sat down" somewhere convenient, and this cannot be assumed. To illustrate this, look at the "Thunderbird" provision for the ECML during the reign of the IC225 sets and compare it to the post-Pendolino WCML.

Even where it isn't the loco that's decided to take a breather, the idea of simply swapping-out duff vehicles from a LHCS train is overstated, as this is something that realistically would only be done on a depot and not out on the road. In which case the train still has to be "pulled" and taken to a location where it can be dealt with, just as an MU would, with all the consequent inconvenience for the passengers.

The other day, I had a DMU decide to smokily consume all it's lubricating oil. All I needed to do was walk back to the affected vehicle (why is it always the one right at the back...?), shut the engine down, inform fleet maintenance control, walk back up to the cab, speak to the signaller and then we were on our way again at only slightly reduced speed. It took only a handful of minutes in total, the majority of which was spent in walking and waiting for fleet maintenance control to answer the phone. Had this been a loco it would have been Goodnight Vienna, and a very long wait for the tow-truck, but because I had an engine under each car I could carry on almost as normal.

EMUs are probably a bit more vulnerable to total failure than DMUs, but realistically no more so than an electric loco. If you pulled a pan off you could immobilise a train; likewise if you had a major transformer fault. But most IC EMUs these days have more than one of each of these and the chances of totally immobilising the train due to failures like this are reduced. The biggest threat to an EMU is a power supply problem, but again something like that would affect any electric train.
 

MattRat

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Personally I think the HST had a good idea by using two locos. Benefits of loco hauled, with less disadvantages.
 

HSTEd

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What is a Stadler power unit?
Because that would seem to have many of the claimed benefits of the locomotive (noise etc) whilst retaining many of the benefits of the EMU.
After all, as the Stadler power unit uses the passenger-carrying portion of the train to generate tractive effort, the train will be lighter compared to a loco hauled solution.

A locomotive has to be heavier than just the power unit simply because it has to be heavy enough to generate tractive effort to haul the train. A QSK-19 has 750hp but weighs under 2 tonnes, even with a generator your power packs will be way lighter than the mass of the locomotive.
Locomotives use heavier, more efficient diesel engines because they have to be heavy either way - so its either a heavier engine or ballast.
 

JonathanH

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If you can add extra carraiges to LHCS and still keep time, the loco was over-specified for the original formation.
Much like class 68s on the TPE services which are over-specified for the five car formation. However, the five car formation is very much a 'unit' in their case.
 

Richard Scott

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If you can add extra carraiges to LHCS and still keep time, the loco was over-specified for the original formation.
Also true of units being over-specified, the power ratings of some are ridiculous, why do 185s need 2250hp for example? Fuel consumption must be quite serious for a 3 car unit?
 
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