Closing the gap in Bradford

[yoyothehobo]

To be more exact, many journeys are suburb to suburb, but few are between any two given suburbs. They are therefore less suitable for rail than journeys involving the centre.

sorry, should have said in terms of the rail network...

 

[Bertie the bus]

Whilst it clearly would have been more practical just because now it will require some demolition doesn't mean its any less likely!

Look at how much is being demolished (including listed buildings) to facilitate HS2. If the will is there it can be done!

You are absolutely spot on. Development in Bradford city centre hasn't made this fantasy less likely. It was never going to happen in the past and it will never happen in the future.

 

[bingleybong]

I always find these sort of discussions a facinating window into why rail (or probably transport in general) enthusiaststs should never be allowed to actually design systems. It is astonishing just how many times people propose massively expensive solutions to problems that don't really exist. I think linking the two St Albans stations probably takes that prize.

 

[Neptune]

I always find these sort of discussions a facinating window into why rail (or probably transport in general) enthusiaststs should never be allowed to actually design systems. It is astonishing just how many times people propose massively expensive solutions to problems that don't really exist. I think linking the two St Albans stations probably takes that prize.

There certainly seems to be an inability of understanding budgets (or lack of). Still, when money is seen as no object…..

 

[Ken H]

There certainly seems to be an inability of understanding budgets (or lack of).

And why would Bradford allow the centre of their city to be devastated so people can get from Baildon to Cleckheaton quicker?

 

[Neptune]

And why would Bradford allow the centre of their city to be devastated so people can get from Baildon to Cleckheaton quicker?

Quite

 

[Bantamzen]

And why would Bradford allow the centre of their city to be devastated so people can get from Baildon to Cleckheaton quicker?

I do love it when nothing but very speculative topics raise blood pressures on these forums. I don't think anybody is suggesting knocking a hole through Bradford city centre just for such a route. However if, and I say if, any West Yorkshire tram system ever came to light, and made it to Bradford then why wouldn't it actually serve the city centre? And if it did, why wouldn't it a least link the two stations allowing a little better connectivity, maybe encouraging a few more people to get out of their cars and use public transport?

 

[Neptune]

I do love it when nothing but very speculative topics raise blood pressures on these forums. I don't think anybody is suggesting knocking a hole through Bradford city centre just for such a route. However if, and I say if, any West Yorkshire tram system ever came to light, and made it to Bradford then why wouldn't it actually serve the city centre? And if it did, why wouldn't it a least link the two stations allowing a little better connectivity, maybe encouraging a few more people to get out of their cars and use public transport?

Sense would tell most people that a properly funded and integrated light rail system linked in to other areas of West Yorkshire without decent access to rail such as LBA or the Spen Valley is the ideal scenario for Bradford.

Sadly too many people as evidenced in the many threads on this subject believe in this notion that linking the 2 heavy rail stations with a viaduct/knocking down buildings etc.. is the only solution, because of this strange aversion to buffer stops.

 

[Bantamzen]

Sense would tell most people that a properly funded and integrated light rail system linked in to other areas of West Yorkshire without decent access to rail such as LBA or the Spen Valley is the ideal scenario for Bradford.

Sadly too many people as evidenced in the many threads on this subject believe in this notion that linking the 2 heavy rail stations with a viaduct/knocking down buildings etc.. is the only solution, because of this strange aversion to buffer stops.

And that's pretty much the ambition of the West Yorkshire Combined Authority. A tram or tram/train line up from the Spen valley, through Bradford towards Shipley and Guiseley, ending up at LBA. And it's an easy shot through Bradford, down Bridge Street, onto Market Street, then Lower Kirkgate before peeling off towards Forster Square station.

 

[Neptune]

And that's pretty much the ambition of the West Yorkshire Combined Authority. A tram or tram/train line up from the Spen valley, through Bradford towards Shipley and Guiseley, ending up at LBA. And it's an easy shot through Bradford, down Bridge Street, onto Market Street, then Lower Kirkgate before peeling off towards Forster Square station.

Far more beneficial to the wider community of West Yorkshire. So why do we keep getting threads coming back to the desire for a viaduct and the larger scale disruption and yes, destruction of a city centre which would benefit a fraction of the people that a properly integrated WY light rail system would.l just because they don’t like buffer stops.

 

[geordieblue]

Well you may fail to see it, but that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of people who do travel north <> south across Bradford.

You've ignored my point though - is Bradford to Spen Valley (a totally new rail flow) less significant than Halifax-Keighley (which can already be done by train, albeit relatively slowly)

 

[Bantamzen]

Far more beneficial to the wider community of West Yorkshire. So why do we keep getting threads coming back to the desire for a viaduct and the larger scale disruption and yes, destruction of a city centre which would benefit a fraction of the people that a properly integrated WY light rail system would.l just because they don’t like buffer stops.

Mainly historical I would imagine. Prior to the building of the Broadway there was a lot of discussion on creating a heavy rail link, partly because some considered it a way to try and kick start the stalled project at the Westfield site.

 

[Northumbriana]

Can a case be made for reopening the line from Low Moor to Mirfield? It looks like the alignment is largely intact and could provide a quicker Bradford to Huddersfield and Manchester link. Maybe also a train link from Liversedge and Cleckheaton to Leeds.

If a new cut off from Deighton to Leeds is ever realised to complement the Manchester to Marsden line then could be connected to Bradford.

 

[Bantamzen]

Can a case be made for reopening the line from Low Moor to Mirfield? It looks like the alignment is largely intact and could provide a quicker Bradford to Huddersfield and Manchester link. Maybe also a train link from Liversedge and Cleckheaton to Leeds.

If a new cut off from Deighton to Leeds is ever realised to complement the Manchester to Marsden line then could be connected to Bradford.

I think the hope is that this alignment will be used by any potential tram or tram-train route, as part of WYCA's long term plans for a network across West Yorkshire. It is highly unlikely that a heavy rail service will ever been seen on that.

 

[Neptune]

I think the hope is that this alignment will be used by any potential tram or tram-train route, as part of WYCA's long term plans for a network across West Yorkshire. It is highly unlikely that a heavy rail service will ever been seen on that.

Yes I would definitely say that light rail should be the future of any rail expansion in WY. There is only a finite amount of extra space on the heavy rail network.

Both heavy and light rail can live hand in hand for the benefit of the greater population.

 

[Northumbriana]

I think the hope is that this alignment will be used by any potential tram or tram-train route, as part of WYCA's long term plans for a network across West Yorkshire. It is highly unlikely that a heavy rail service will ever been seen on that.

Makes sense. Probably still room for a branch off a new Deighton - Leeds line into Bradford though I'd have thought.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Combining 2 stations in Bradford to eliminate a half mile walk does not remotely compare to the benefits HS2 will bring to unlocking the WCML. I suppose HS2 is preventing that vital (sic) link from Colne to Skipton too!

Sadly too many people as evidenced in the many threads on this subject believe in this notion that linking the 2 heavy rail stations with a viaduct/knocking down buildings etc.. is the only solution, because of this strange aversion to buffer stops.

I also love how everyone thinks connecting Bradford is somehow about removing the need to physically walk across Bradford or an aversion to buffer stops.

Personally I would keep the buffer stops at Forster Square and the Interchange!

A North West - South East chord (bypassing the Interchange) could address the capacity issues between Leeds and Apperley Junction.


At the end of the day we should really just close Bradford Forster Square as BR nearly did and when there is no more capacity in the rail network to Leeds invest in more roads!

 

[yoyothehobo]

A North West - South East chord (bypassing the Interchange) could address the capacity issues between Leeds and Apperley Junction.

Might have to explain this a little bit

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Thing is, advocates for building a railway across Bradford city centre love to claim that it will revolutionise public transport in the city, but when challenged to explain how and why- they always fall back on either reduced dwells at Interchange, or niche journeys like Brighouse to Bingley. They also ignore the fact that Calder Valley journeys would be slowed down by having to go to Leeds the long way round, or that passengers for Frizinghall would struggle to board any services going from Leeds via Pudsey at peak times because it would be full of passengers for Bradford.

Their energy would be much better spent lobbying Mayor Tracey Brabin to try and save the second trains each hour into Forster Square from Skipton and Ilkley.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Their energy would be much better spent lobbying Mayor Tracey Brabin to try and save the second trains each hour into Forster Square from Skipton and Ilkley.

Perhaps if they started from Leeds these second trains wouldn't need saving!

The fact they are underthreat is also shocking considering Bradford Council and many others have lobbied for NPR to go via Bradford on its way to Leeds and that existing services are often overcrowded between Leeds and Bradford!

 

[YorksLad12]

Their energy would be much better spent lobbying Mayor Tracey Brabin to try and save the second trains each hour into Forster Square from Skipton and Ilkley.

Indeed, though it won't make a difference as she has no rail powers. And, if Northern says it's cutting those services because of a lack of train crew or units, there's no way round that.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Indeed, though it won't make a difference as she has no rail powers. And, if Northern says it's cutting those services because of a lack of train crew or units, there's no way round that.

No direct power over rail, but she could kick up a bit of a stink about the situation which might make a difference. Her Greater Manchester counterpart seems a bit more "hands on" when it comes to rail.

 

[Bantamzen]

At the end of the day we should really just close Bradford Forster Square as BR nearly did and when there is no more capacity in the rail network to Leeds invest in more roads!

I trust that's a joke?

Thing is, advocates for building a railway across Bradford city centre love to claim that it will revolutionise public transport in the city, but when challenged to explain how and why- they always fall back on either reduced dwells at Interchange, or niche journeys like Brighouse to Bingley. They also ignore the fact that Calder Valley journeys would be slowed down by having to go to Leeds the long way round, or that passengers for Frizinghall would struggle to board any services going from Leeds via Pudsey at peak times because it would be full of passengers for Bradford.

I can't ever recall anyone suggesting niche journeys like that, this is usually the preserve of people trying to disprove any north-south flow through Bradford. I do agree that doing it simply to stop reversals would be daft though.

We'll never really know what the rail infrastructure or services might have looked like had the Victorians built a through line when they could have. And we never will. But nonetheless there is a traffic problem in Bradford, it does need solving, and cutting services won't help them.

Their energy would be much better spent lobbying Mayor Tracey Brabin to try and save the second trains each hour into Forster Square from Skipton and Ilkley.

Indeed.

Indeed, though it won't make a difference as she has no rail powers. And, if Northern says it's cutting those services because of a lack of train crew or units, there's no way round that.

Northern are not short of units, during the reduced timetable last summer Bradford FS was a dumping ground for bored EMUs waiting for work. If its crew issues, which were last year's excuses then tell us about it, and what they plan to do. Don't just try to sneak reductions in quietly and hope nobody notices.

 

[quantinghome]

We're forgetting that terminus stations are just more important and impressive than through stations.

It's like this place is so important that the train can go no further. You are at an actual DESTINATION. The train had arrived and will go no further - not resting for a couple of minutes at some one-horse town then heading off again, barely stopping to notice where you are.

Bradford beats Leeds 2-0. Game over.

 

[yoyothehobo]

We're forgetting that terminus stations are just more important and impressive than through stations.

It's like this place is so important that the train can go no further. You are at an actual DESTINATION. The train had arrived and will go no further - not resting for a couple of minutes at some one-horse town then heading off again, barely stopping to notice where you are.

Bradford beats Leeds 2-0. Game over.

Of course if you chose terminus platforms, Leeds beats Bradford 12-7...

 

[quantinghome]

Of course if you chose terminus platforms, Leeds beats Bradford 12-7...

Platforms schmatforms. Progress beyond the station must be impossible. And yes, I'm looking at you, Piccadilly.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Leeds beats Bradford 12-7...

Have I stumbled across the Rugby League thread?

 

[WAO]

Fascinating sequence of posts.

I'm torn between now believing that Crossrail and Thameslink were a huge mistake, that we should advocate the re-opening of Leeds Central, New, Wellington and Holbeck High and Low Level and the opposite idea that we should immediately carve through modern Courts and Shopping Centres.

What's more confusing is a Bradford Council that imagines one can have a high speed line with two stations eight miles apart while neglecting its local services, ignoring "connectivity" between the busy, rail using, townships of the Aire and Calder Valleys. Bradford is more than just a city centre.

The joker is LRT with its low speed and capacity but immense cost/mile.

Labor Omnia Vincit

WAO

 

[quantinghome]

What's more confusing is a Bradford Council that imagines one can have a high speed line with two stations eight miles apart while neglecting its local services, ignoring "connectivity" between the busy, rail using, townships of the Aire and Calder Valleys. Bradford is more than just a city centre.

The joker is LRT with its low speed and capacity but immense cost/mile.

Labor Omnia Vincit

WAO

If you'll forgive the lapse into seriousness for a moment, NPR isn't a high speed line - it's there to connect the main northern cities and free up the existing lines for massively improved local services.

The Wharfe, Aire and Calder valley lines may be busy, but where are people going? Not to the other valleys for the most part. Take Airedale and Wharfedale as an example. The physical infrastructure already exists for a through service from Keighley to Ilkley. The end-to-end journey would beat the bus, and it would create all sorts of useful direct connections between well-used stations. But no service runs, because the demand is minimal.

 

[Bantamzen]

If you'll forgive the lapse into seriousness for a moment, NPR isn't a high speed line - it's there to connect the main northern cities and free up the existing lines for massively improved local services.

The Wharfe, Aire and Calder valley lines may be busy, but where are people going? Not to the other valleys for the most part. Take Airedale and Wharfedale as an example. The physical infrastructure already exists for a through service from Keighley to Ilkley. The end-to-end journey would beat the bus, and it would create all sorts of useful direct connections between well-used stations. But no service runs, because the demand is minimal.

Are you sure, the 62 bus between Keighley & Ilkley takes around 40 minutes. A similarly timed train service via Shipley (which is what I assume you mean) would probably take around 35-40 minutes. However firstly you'd have to find a path to avoid services to Ilkley to Leeds & Bradford, as well as avoiding services from Keighley to Leeds & Bradford. Just because a service doesn't exist, does not mean people aren't travelling between the two (this seems to be a common theme on RUK).

And before anyone pipes up, I am not suggesting that such a service be tried. Repeat I am not suggesting such a service should be tried!