6 cars to Windermere

[Cheshire Scot]

At Preston yesterday morning I saw the 08.29 Manchester Airport to Windermere make its booked call 09.33 to 09.45. Arriving with 6 cars I fully expected the rear set to be detached at Preston for it to go forward as 3 cars, but no it went forward as 6 cars. The inward working to MIA is from Barrow with 6 cars so no surprise it heads back north with 6. Checking RTT it was 6 cars again today - the last time I saw this train a few weeks back it was 3 cars.

Is this a regular occurrence? I've not previously been aware of six car workings on the branch.

Checking the Sectional Appendix 6 does fit - fairly tight - at Oxenholme (3) and Windermere, but how does it work at the intermediate stations - particularly Staveley. Kendal and Burneside are listed as 92 metres so will take 4 cars (with SDO) but Staveley at 72 metres will only take 3 cars, so how does this work bearing in mind regulations prohibit having passengers in a locked set at a station call, do they run one car off and have cars 2, 3 and 4 platformed, can SDO cope with this? Or do they lock the rear set out on the branch?

Does anyone know?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Is this a regular occurrence? I've not previously been aware of six car workings on the branch.

I've seen a good few on RTT going back a few weeks. (probably all the way to Dec 2022, if not earlier)

 

[voyagerdude220]

I'm under the impression that 6 car Class 195 working started at the beginning of the December timetable change. I know 195s have SDO but I don't know specifically what the method of work is. No doubt someone will be along soon to fill in the gaps.

 

[Some guy]

I'm under the impression that 6 car Class 195 working started at the beginning of the December timetable change. I know 195s have SDO but I don't know specifically what the method of work is. No doubt someone will be along soon to fill in the gaps.

From what I’ve seen, after Oxenholme the conductor tells the passengers to move to the front coach if they are in the rear set so they can release the doors at Kendal, Burneside and Staveley

At Preston yesterday morning I saw the 08.29 Manchester Airport to Windermere make its booked call 09.33 to 09.45. Arriving with 6 cars I fully expected the rear set to be detached at Preston for it to go forward as 3 cars, but no it went forward as 6 cars. The inward working to MIA is from Barrow with 6 cars so no surprise it heads back north with 6. Checking RTT it was 6 cars again today - the last time I saw this train a few weeks back it was 3 cars.

It’s been since December it’s very useful going towards Manchester with the 6 carriages those trains can be completely full by Preston as 3 coaches

 

[Pinus contorta]

From what I’ve seen after oxenholme the conductor tells the passengers to move to the front coach if they are in the rear set so he can release the doors at Kendal, Burneside and Staveley

It’s been since December it’s very useful going towards Manchester with the 6 carriages those trains can be completely full by Preston as 3 coaches

The one after that 0750 from Barrow was very busy with Students / commuters at Lancaster last week when I used it. It was a 3. Got off at Preston and I expect it was full and standing through the Bolton corridor.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The reason for the 6 car project is that these trains get very busy south of Preston, and presumably portion working them taking 3 off at Preston is too much of a performance risk or isn't provided for by the signalling. Though it'll help with tourist loadings in summer.

 

[Pinus contorta]

The reason for the 6 car project is that these trains get very busy south of Preston, and presumably portion working them taking 3 off at Preston is too much of a performance risk or isn't provided for by the signalling. Though it'll help with tourist loadings in summer.

I can well imagine it being complicated taking a unit off at Preston on P3. If there's late running. When they used to split with the 185's in Tpe days, the front one would depart for Barrow and the other would leave to Blackpool almost straight away. But that was pre electrification so that won't ever happen again.

 

[AMD]

so how does this work bearing in mind regulations prohibit having passengers in a locked set at a station call

I think this has changed - six cars also run to Barrow and at Silverdale on the UP only the rear unit is accommodated, the front unit remains completely locked at this station call.

Windermere is operated using ASDO/SDO according to the crib sheets issued by standards department. All stations accomodate the 4th car so the conductor can release from the rear unit.

Edited to note that Staveley platform has been extended and is now 95m.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Thanks all for feedback on this.

Incidentally the 12 minute dwell is on P5 at Preston as it is overtaken by a down Avanti which uses P3 - although on the day it was sent out right time with the slightly late Avanti already in the station which followed two mins later then lost a further four minutes to Lancaster presumably due following the slower (100mph) train and then waiting for it to clear P4 there.

The lengthening of Staveley answers my concern re how it is dealt with there although the Silverdale example quoted is interesting will no doubt be documented in Northern's procedures.

It is encouraging to know capacity is being provided, at least in this example, on services which need it.

 

[Triumph]

These are all booked to be 6 car 195s from Windermere:
(SX)
1057,1147,1307,1948,2042,2147,2247
(SO)
1708,1805,1856,1948,2042,2140,2229
(SUN)
All 3 car

 

[CE142]

I think this has changed - six cars also run to Barrow and at Silverdale on the UP only the rear unit is accommodated, the front unit remains completely locked at this station call.

Windermere is operated using ASDO/SDO according to the crib sheets issued by standards department. All stations accomodate the 4th car so the conductor can release from the rear unit.

Edited to note that Staveley platform has been extended and is now 95m.

Correct, and yet still even with announcements by the Guard before departing Arnside telling passengers that they must be in the rear 3 coaches of a 6 coach train and posters on all stations telling passengers for Silverdale that they must travel in the rear 3 coaches of a 6 coach train, they are still being overcarried to Carnforth as they didn't bother/weren't listening to the announcements or see the posters....

What is needed is Network Rail to come along with a saw and chop the fence down by the old waiting room halfway along the Platform so that all the platform can be used.... No doubt it would cost millions just to saw a few fence panels off though....

 

[AngusH]

I see what you mean...

At Silverdale the whole platform is still there, with a further section beyond some fencing that just hasn't been maintained as a public platform.

Hopefully all it needs is some resurfacing and a bit of vegetation cutback and it's suddenly much longer.

Even the signal is still at the end of the old platform...

https://goo.gl/maps/ezgVm7WxXZkTEhUK7

 

[Pinus contorta]

I see what you mean...

At Silverdale the whole platform is still there, with a further section beyond some fencing that just hasn't been maintained as a public platform.

Hopefully all it needs is some resurfacing and a bit of vegetation cutback and it's suddenly much longer.

Even the signal is still at the end of the old platform...

https://goo.gl/maps/ezgVm7WxXZkTEhUK7

Might have the same problem that they encountered at Ulverston with the platform dip looking at that image

 

[CE142]

I see what you mean...

At Silverdale the whole platform is still there, with a further section beyond some fencing that just hasn't been maintained as a public platform.

Hopefully all it needs is some resurfacing and a bit of vegetation cutback and it's suddenly much longer.

Even the signal is still at the end of the old platform...

https://goo.gl/maps/ezgVm7WxXZkTEhUK7

Since that picture was taken, there is a 6 car stop board down by the signal, apparently the reason it has to be the back 3 cars on a 6 car set on the Up at Silverdale , is so that it doesn't block the foot crossing at the Barrow end of the platform. Which it does if you stop at the 'S' Board show on that picture. Fine no problem I can sort of understand that, however Kents Bank also has a foot crossing at the Barrow end of the platform and the rear coach blocks the foot crossing when stopping with a 6 car set on the Up....

 

[30907]

Fine no problem I can sort of understand that, however Kents Bank also has a foot crossing at the Barrow end of the platform and the rear coach blocks the foot crossing when stopping with a 6 car set on the Up....

At Kents Bank a 6 car Up train only blocks access to the Down platform (and the sands!) though, which is less of an issue unless a Down is due at the same time - statistically unlikely

 

[RailWonderer]

I've never understood why mainline trains don't program the PIS to be different in the coach where the doors don't open. In the tube on the S stock it says something like 'the doors in this coach don't open here, please use other doors'. That way on Northern it could say 'please move rearwards to alight' if passengers are in the front two coaches of a 195 so they know they have to move to the rear coach in the front unit and confusion is sorted.

 

[td97]

That way on Northern it could say 'please move rearwards to alight' if passengers are in the front two coaches of a 195 so they know they have to move to the rear coach in the front unit and confusion is sorted.

When the PIS works on a Northern CAF train, it does announce/display this.
However, it used to always activate for Salford Crescent, where all 6 carriages are platformed.

 

[D6130]

When the PIS works on a Northern CAF train, it does announce/display this.
However, it used to always activate for Salford Crescent, where all 6 carriages are platformed.

The same often happens on five and six car class 195s arriving at Hebden Bridge, even though both platforms were specially extended to accommodate six cars.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

When the PIS works on a Northern CAF train, it does announce/display this.
However, it used to always activate for Salford Crescent, where all 6 carriages are platformed.

It also activates just when it feels like it (actually a data store issue or something).
And when it does that it tells people in every carriage (even at the very front) to move forwards.
It's not trustworthy.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

I've never understood why mainline trains don't program the PIS to be different in the coach where the doors don't open. In the tube on the S stock it says something like 'the doors in this coach don't open here, please use other doors'. That way on Northern it could say 'please move rearwards to alight' if passengers are in the front two coaches of a 195 so they know they have to move to the rear coach in the front unit and confusion is sorted.

When 331s were first introduced that was the way it did work, at least in my experience at a number of different stations, so something has changed since then. On my last 331 trip it was not working at all, a manual announcement from the Guard was the only warning at Leyland (which I think was the only 'short' station for 6 cars).

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I've never understood why mainline trains don't program the PIS to be different in the coach where the doors don't open. In the tube on the S stock it says something like 'the doors in this coach don't open here, please use other doors'. That way on Northern it could say 'please move rearwards to alight' if passengers are in the front two coaches of a 195 so they know they have to move to the rear coach in the front unit and confusion is sorted.

I'm going to hazard a guess that, maybe there's an issue that, if you did individualized per-carriage messaging, you have to make sure the system is set up completely correctly for each journey: The system would as a minimum have to know which direction the train is going in, and whether it's controlling the front or the rear set. Make any mistakes setting it up for a journey, and it could end up displaying completely wrong information about where to alight from each carriage, which would be worse than a generic, 'Move to the front X carriages' message. That might be considered too great a risk.

On the other hand, since there are far fewer different routes a train could be running on the tube, and no issues about coupling sets together, there's probably less likelihood of mistakes there, so individualized per-carriage messaging would represent less of a risk.