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313 Railtour?

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william.martin

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Can't see any reason why they wouldn't be allowed to London Victoria or bridge unless they're wider than a 377 or something like that.
.
Don't you think that Clapham Junction is already slightly busy?
Maybe it'll do something like the 442 tour and have excursions of various sidings, like hove or bognor middle siding etc.
The small section of track to Newhaven Marine would be good.
Maybe they do Brighton to Gatwick airport (or Selhurst) before turning around and heading to Newhaven Marine via Lewes.
Next they go to Brighton where they have a run up the west coastway to Portsmouth Harbour then turn around and make it back to Brighton where we all go and have a pint :)
I am not an expert in the area and I have done it all by looking at tracksy, I doubt this is what will actually happen although if I was the MD that's what I would be doing.
 
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HamworthyGoods

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The issue with that is then they can't call it a "farewell tour". A lot of enthusiasts like a "farewell tour" on its last day or the last time it carries passengers like with the 455 tour.

Class 455s are still running though?
 

WizCastro197

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The southern 455 tour to be exact. For some odd reason, a lot of people don't consider the SWR 455s as authentic because of their retraction. Hence the tour.
Aren’t Southern 455s not ‘authentic’ as they’ve had their cab fronts altered?
 

D365

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The issue with that is then they can't call it a "farewell tour". A lot of enthusiasts like a "farewell tour" on its last day or the last time it carries passengers like with the 455 tour.
They can call it what they want.
 

WizCastro197

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The issue with that is then they can't call it a "farewell tour". A lot of enthusiasts like a "farewell tour" on its last day or the last time it carries passengers like with the 455 tour.
Well it is saying goodbye to them, no matter when the actual tour is. Here is a definition taken from Google to what farewell means:

1. used to express good wishes on parting.
2. an act of parting or of marking someone's departure.
"the dinner had been arranged as a farewell"

Similar:
goodbye
 

bramling

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The issue with that is then they can't call it a "farewell tour". A lot of enthusiasts like a "farewell tour" on its last day or the last time it carries passengers like with the 455 tour.

Surely a last timetabled service is far more authentic?

The GN 313s for example had a farewell tour, yet the last timetabled services had a far more surreal atmosphere, with just a handful of enthusiasts turning out. These farewell tours are a bit bandwagon in my view, especially now it seems to be necessary to have security to stop people trashing things.
 

Islineclear3_1

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Or even a tribute tour :E:E As much as many people hate them, they have done remarkable service both on the ex-GN and Silverlink routes and then Southern and remarkable that they have survived over 45 years !

The tour would have to make lots of toilet stops so I reckon Brighton-Eastbourne-Lewes-Seaford-Lewes-Hastings (not Ore as no toilets), then maybe Worthing-Littlehampton-Bognor-Portsmouth. I think the Brighton main-line and Arun Valley would be too congested - remember this is a Saturday

Can Newhaven Marine have trains with pax on (as rare track)? At least the doors can't be released by them to go and relieve themselves....
 

Kite159

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Or even a tribute tour :E:E As much as many people hate them, they have done remarkable service both on the ex-GN and Silverlink routes and then Southern and remarkable that they have survived over 45 years !

The tour would have to make lots of toilet stops so I reckon Brighton-Eastbourne-Lewes-Seaford-Lewes-Hastings (not Ore as no toilets), then maybe Worthing-Littlehampton-Bognor-Portsmouth. I think the Brighton main-line and Arun Valley would be too congested - remember this is a Saturday

Can Newhaven Marine have trains with pax on (as rare track)? At least the doors can't be released by them to go and relieve themselves....
I visited Marine last year on the BLS tour with 50s (Ore no more), clearly the doors weren't released. More chance of that happening than Seaford due to the single track from Newhaven to Seaford
 

PGAT

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Surely a last timetabled service is far more authentic?

The GN 313s for example had a farewell tour, yet the last timetabled services had a far more surreal atmosphere, with just a handful of enthusiasts turning out. These farewell tours are a bit bandwagon in my view, especially now it seems to be necessary to have security to stop people trashing things.
Just out of curiosity what is the last service a Class 313 will be running?
 

paul1609

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Can't see any reason why they wouldn't be allowed to London Victoria or bridge unless they're wider than a 377 or something like that.

Probably want to keep it down here anyway for the toilet requirements.

Maybe it'll do something like the 442 tour and have excursions of various sidings, like hove or bognor middle siding etc.
Suspect it will be because of the risk of becoming gapped. They only have shoes on the outer bogies wheras 377/3 have 4 sets. As they are fitted with tightlock couplings they cant be pushed out of the way by modern stock. A 313 full of trainspotters accross the throat of Victoria would certainly rack up the delay repay bill.
 

Bertie the bus

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Surely a last timetabled service is far more authentic?

The GN 313s for example had a farewell tour, yet the last timetabled services had a far more surreal atmosphere, with just a handful of enthusiasts turning out. These farewell tours are a bit bandwagon in my view, especially now it seems to be necessary to have security to stop people trashing things.
Which rather shows the popularity, or otherwise, of EMUs. I did part of the 314 Farewell Tour. It was well organised, dirt cheap and I think the last ever Class 314 passenger service. It even went to at least 1 place that 314s had never worked in passenger service before. Whilst there were a decent number of people on it it was nowhere near full despite the £10 per part (3 part tour) price tag.
 

TheHSRailFan

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Aren’t Southern 455s not ‘authentic’ as they’ve had their cab fronts altered?
That's a discussion for another thread, I've already had arguments with other enthusiasts and I know the Admins won't like that.

They can call it what they want.
of course, but it becomes a debate to many in the end. Certainly had a few friends who hated people calling the 315 event as a "farewell tour".

Surely a last timetabled service is far more authentic?

The GN 313s for example had a farewell tour, yet the last timetabled services had a far more surreal atmosphere, with just a handful of enthusiasts turning out. These farewell tours are a bit bandwagon in my view, especially now it seems to be necessary to have security to stop people trashing things.
Yeah sure, however, some people can't stay up too late to be on the "last timetabled". I was riding the last passenger revenue service of the 315s to and from Shenfield. However, I couldn't do the last one as trains stopped stopping after a certain time. the farewell tours/events I've been on are for everyone. Of course, there are bad eggs... like with everyone and everything. They are really and typically in the end a way to help raise for charity (what the last few farewell tours/events have been) as well as being in the community. It's fine if you don't think it's authentic, but to me and many others, it's the last time and a get-together before their future is decided.
 

73128

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Suspect it will be because of the risk of becoming gapped. They only have shoes on the outer bogies wheras 377/3 have 4 sets. As they are fitted with tightlock couplings they cant be pushed out of the way by modern stock. A 313 full of trainspotters accross the throat of Victoria would certainly rack up the delay repay bill.
Couldn't two units be run in multiple (more room as well)?
 

Kite159

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Which rather shows the popularity, or otherwise, of EMUs. I did part of the 314 Farewell Tour. It was well organised, dirt cheap and I think the last ever Class 314 passenger service. It even went to at least 1 place that 314s had never worked in passenger service before. Whilst there were a decent number of people on it it was nowhere near full despite the £10 per part (3 part tour) price tag.

Wasn't that the tour which was short notice in terms of being advertised and ran on a weekday, the same day as LNER ran the over the top 4 day HST farewell?
 

Islineclear3_1

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Couldn't two units be run in multiple (more room as well)?
I would have thought running 2 units together would be a good plan but given the amount of faults and failures these old girls are experiencing, I would have thought staying on their usual stamping ground would be more sensible. Imagine a failure in busy south London and awaiting another unit from Lovers to come and drag the old girls back home.... I'm sure the good people of Lover's do a sterling job but there's only so many new brooms and handles...
 

CEPG

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Apart from 201 for the NRM I have no idea.

Be interested in what year your spotting book is..presume it's Ian Allan?
Sorry to break the news but 201 has been "De-Accessioned", A.K.A is no longer designed for NRM preservation. There were plans to refit the interior to something more original but they fell through.

121 now has the honour of being designated, being the last dual voltage example and having 80% of its original interior but with its recent sale who knows where it'll end up and how it will be long before it's retired.

Apparently, local plans are afoot to still keep 201 around but who knows? From what I've heard doing the Coastway for 5 years has done the body no good but I haven't seen any official engineering reports to corroborate that so take its condition with a grain of salt.
 

that1pepfan

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Sorry to break the news but 201 has been "De-Accessioned", A.K.A is no longer designed for NRM preservation. There were plans to refit the interior to something more original but they fell through.

121 now has the honour of being designated, being the last dual voltage example and having 80% of its original interior but with its recent sale who knows where it'll end up and how it will be long before it's retired.

Apparently, local plans are afoot to still keep 201 around but who knows? From what I've heard doing the Coastway for 5 years has done the body no good but I haven't seen any official engineering reports to corroborate that so take its condition with a grain of salt.
Oops, where would it go? Maybe a heritage railway like 317 or 365
 

Islineclear3_1

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Sorry to break the news but 201 has been "De-Accessioned", A.K.A is no longer designed for NRM preservation. There were plans to refit the interior to something more original but they fell through.

121 now has the honour of being designated, being the last dual voltage example and having 80% of its original interior but with its recent sale who knows where it'll end up and how it will be long before it's retired.

Apparently, local plans are afoot to still keep 201 around but who knows? From what I've heard doing the Coastway for 5 years has done the body no good but I haven't seen any official engineering reports to corroborate that so take its condition with a grain of salt.
Do you have a source for this "de-accessioning"? Would be interesting to read.

If 121 has more original features, then I suppose it makes sense to keep this one, but I thought Alstom "extensively" rebuilt it for the ETRMS role (?)
 

CEPG

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Do you have a source for this? Would be interesting to read. If 121 has more original features, then I suppose it makes sense to keep this one
A colleague of mine who is involved in the designation has informed me of all this and has since posted on public channels about said information. Will see if I can find it. it, unfortunately, makes sense on paper to "pen pushers" higher up who are all looking at minimum costs (I'm getting to SMG group levels here) because there was a sound plan to keep 201 around and refit the interior from another recently withdrawn PEP (ill let you figure out which one) but it got rejected on storage cost grounds. A shame really, but we shall see how it all pans out.
 

Islineclear3_1

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But you're right in the sense that it's time (and its classmates) on the South Coast will have taken a toll on its bodywork and kudos to Lover's for looking after it, but rot is rot and one has to think seriously whether or not its worth it. Perhaps the other recently withdrawn PEP can donate parts etc. but as you know, this would need covered workshop attention and loadsa ££££££.

But if it can be done to the older 2 HAP at the NRM, then anything's possible with money, time and manpower
 

bramling

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A colleague of mine who is involved in the designation has informed me of all this and has since posted on public channels about said information. Will see if I can find it. it, unfortunately, makes sense on paper to "pen pushers" higher up who are all looking at minimum costs (I'm getting to SMG group levels here) because there was a sound plan to keep 201 around and refit the interior from another recently withdrawn PEP (ill let you figure out which one) but it got rejected on storage cost grounds. A shame really, but we shall see how it all pans out.

A bit daft they didn’t take one of the GN units then, in particular one of the three which retained the original low-back seating to the end.

I hope 313201 does get preserved though. Apart from being one of the longest-serving EMUs, it was of course the pioneer of a new generation of trains, which were absolutely revolutionary at the time - even if not to everyone’s taste. Likewise the PEP-derived fleets can only be regarded as a roaring success given how long-lived they have proven to be. It’s quite ironic how many later classes they have outlived.
 

bluegoblin7

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Point of order: something that hasn’t already been accessioned into a collection can’t be de-accessioned. This is a very specific Museum term and, particularly in regards to Nationals, has some very strict processes for onward disposal of the item being deaccessioned.

Dedesignated is more likely, especially where another has been designated in its place. However, even this is not a simple process, and is also not directly related to the NRM - dedesignation would not occur simply because the NRM cannot afford something. Plenty of designated railway artefacts are outwith the care of the NRM.

Indeed, in the most recent list published in June 2021 by the Railway Heritage Designation Advisory Board (RHDAB) (formerly the Railway Heritage Committee), there is no reference at all to a complete 313 unit: https://www.sciencemuseumgroup.org....2021/06/RHC-Designated-Items-Publish-2021.pdf. Indeed I don’t personally recall ever seeing a 313 on the list.

Where much of the reference to a 313 transferring to the NRM comes from is the 2019 Vehicle Strategy document (https://www.sciencemuseumgroup.org....19/03/op-rail-vehicle-strategy-2019_FINAL.pdf), which listed a 313 as a future aspiration for operation at SMG (Science Museum Group) sites. Whilst some other vehicles listed are designated (and accessioned), not all are - so no precedent is set for the inclusion of any 313.

Whether this remains the case is of course clearly currently up for debate, but in the absence of primary sources (especially where the quoted source is using their terms incorrectly) I would assign it the same status as ‘the man on the platform said’.
 

Islineclear3_1

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Then that's it then. All units are likely to go to the scrapyard.

I can't imagine there would be any room at the NRM anyway; particularly with the works to the Great Hall commencing unless a temporary home could be found, like the 306. But then it would take up valuable space, not earn a living and rot away.
 

D365

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There simply isn’t a market within the UK to maintain units that are tethered to an electrical supply. The few electric locos that are ’preserved’ are infinitely more versatile.
 

king_walnut

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Just out of curiosity what is the last service a Class 313 will be running?

It would be the 23:41 to Seaford on their last day of operation. Though that comes back to Brighton empty (not passenger service).
 

1Q18

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There simply isn’t a market within the UK to maintain units that are tethered to an electrical supply. The few electric locos that are ’preserved’ are infinitely more versatile.
There’s a couple of groups making a concerted effort to disagree with you on that point, the Brighton Belle group most notably.
 

D365

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There’s a couple of groups making a concerted effort to disagree with you on that point, the Brighton Belle group most notably.
The one exception, courtesy of some well-placed contacts within the industry.
 
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