Network Rail industrial action suspended

[Dan G]

Pretty obviously NR and RDG are providing Lynch with cover for undertaking ballots. Eminently sensible too

 

[winks]

The only thing that will change is the pay anniversary date moving backwards to October I believe, which gives another lump sum. You can move dates around. As the govt say “this is still within the overall funding envelope”

 

[scrapy]

The email received from RMT tonight says there is a potential improved offer on pay and conditions for the tocs. Clearly January's offer wasn't final!

If the RDG say today they want the RMT to call of strikes to discuss an improved offer, makes you wonder why they couldn't have tabled the offer earlier in the week given they know the timescales involved to reinstate trains. Does seem to be the RDG playing games at passengers expense.

 

[Omnishambles]

Second, infrastructure failures occur throughout the 24 hours of the day. So some staff have to be on duty during the day. In the case of S&T (signalling maintenance staff), that means 24 hour, 7 day a week cover. This is the limiting factor that the company (Network Rail) is taking into account for S&T and certain other departments that also require 24/7 cover.

Pardon my ignorance on restructurings and re-orgs over the last few years.
Are S+T teams still actually F+M (Fault and Maintenance) so could actually be carrying out maintenance duties until a fault occurs ?……which invariably led to an hour putting a set of points back together in the middle of nowhere whilst the WCML stood

 

[alxndr]

Pardon my ignorance on restructurings and re-orgs over the last few years.
Are S+T teams still actually F+M (Fault and Maintenance) so could actually be carrying out maintenance duties until a fault occurs ?……which invariably led to an hour putting a set of points back together in the middle of nowhere whilst the WCML stood

Some shifts will be pure maintenance (or have a team that's just maintenance only unless everything really hits the fan) but other shifts/teams will be F+m with some planned maintenance. Planned maintenance on days is getting less common though due to the access issues outlined above by Annetts Key. Some places get more access than others in day time, but even then no where near what it was a couple of years ago when you could be out most of the day, every day, doing maintenance unless something came in.

 

[celdor]

Does seem to be the RDG playing games at passengers expense.

yup, costing me around £140 so far. Projected. I might lose less if the strike goes ahead.

 

[Annetts key]

Some shifts will be pure maintenance (or have a team that's just maintenance only unless everything really hits the fan) but other shifts/teams will be F+m with some planned maintenance. Planned maintenance on days is getting less common though due to the access issues outlined above by Annetts Key. Some places get more access than others in day time, but even then no where near what it was a couple of years ago when you could be out most of the day, every day, doing maintenance unless something came in.

Officially, as far as the central organisation is concerned, all S&T Maintenance department staff are faulting and maintenance teams. However, engineers/managers often prefer teams that are not providing 24/7 faulting cover to be normally maintenance only (unless of course the on-call manager decides differently). These teams often spend large number of shifts on nights.

But yes, the teams providing 24/7 cover are allocated maintenance. Nowadays, on early/day or late shifts, this is often location cupboards or equipment buildings (relay rooms, REBs) or other items that can be done without working on the line. Sometimes it’s work on freight lines when there is a big enough gap in the booked service so a line block can be taken.

During the night, or if there are lines under T3 occupation(s), e.g. at weekends, these teams are allocated point machine, signal, track circuit, level crossing or similar maintenance. Or asked to investigate any ‘RCM’ (monitoring system) alarms that have been reported by the “II” (so called “intelligent infrastructure”) controllers, such as drift alarm or communication problems with axle counters. Or for T3s, engineering work supporting the P.Way rail changing/IRJ repair, point switch rail welding/grinding repair work.

And yes, the company gamble that it won’t go pear shaped if the ‘fault team’ are busy. And yes, sometimes the company loose the gamble. It’s sadly rather frustrating telling fault control that, no, we can’t immediately leave where we are to attend a train stopping failure elsewhere.

Some S&T staff now no longer have lookout competence, where before they had held this for many years. I don’t yet know how widespread this is.

 

[CE142]

Why should the RMT call off the strikes?
They did that once before last year and the Tory Government and the RDG played silly buggers. Once bitten twice shy, the RMT Should be calling for more strike action!

 

[Bald Rick]

Why should the RMT call off the strikes?
They did that once before last year and the Tory Government and the RDG played silly buggers. Once bitten twice shy, the RMT Should be calling for more strike action!

Because their members want to, perhaps? Democracy and all that.

 

[Scott1]

Because their members want to, perhaps? Democracy and all that.

Do their members one to? I don't, once bitten twice shy and all that.

 

[Bald Rick]

Do their members one to? I don't, once bitten twice shy and all that.

Certainly the feeling is that more want to settle the dispute than not. At least, that’s what the reps are saying.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

If they are seeking to impose modernising maintenance, isn't that just likely to lead to a new dispute with RMT? This time just for maintenance, it's pretty clear that the signallers locally here would support the new offer as they are of course not being asked to change much in the way of working practices. Maintenance absolutely are....

 

[ROCsteadycrew]

Voting on the latest offer has begun.

 

[12LDA28C]

Voting on the latest offer has begun.

As described in the RMT statement. Closes on March 20th at midday.

 

[Bald Rick]

If they are seeking to impose modernising maintenance, isn't that just likely to lead to a new dispute with RMT?

Unlikely

 

[dctraindriver]

ASLEF are in dispute with the Island Line but not with SWR on the mainland. RMT are in dispute with SWR on the mainland but not with the Island Line (the RMT only got 11 yes votes from their 31 Island Line members in the May 2022 ballot for industrial action). SWR runs Island Line signalling so the Island Line is only affected by Network Rail strikes when Network Rail on the mainland is unable to supply power to the Island Line

Inability to provide sufficient power due to Mainland strike action means no Island Line service on Saturday night

South Western Railway is in the process of arranging rail replacement services for Saturday night

onthewight.com

Aslef are in dispute with SWR on the mainland as the depot drivers are in dispute.

 

[LAX54]

Certainly the feeling is that more want to settle the dispute than not. At least, that’s what the reps are saying.

Nearly, if not all the Signallers I know, want to settle, and will vote 'accept' on the referendum, as for moving maintainance work to nights, it has to come sooner or later, the workload for some PSB's/ROCs etc, has gone through the roof, you can have a Line Block 'arranged' to cover about 6 or 7 hours, of which they will get maybe an hours actual work all day, rest of the time just 'waiting"
There has been an increase in LB 'incidents' over the past few years, whether this is connected to the pressure of trying to grant blocks in the smallest gap available I dont know, but certainly needs to be looked at.

 

[alxndr]

Nearly, if not all the Signallers I know, want to settle, and will vote 'accept' on the referendum, as for moving maintainance work to nights, it has to come sooner or later, the workload for some PSB's/ROCs etc, has gone through the roof, you can have a Line Block 'arranged' to cover about 6 or 7 hours, of which they will get maybe an hours actual work all day, rest of the time just 'waiting"
There has been an increase in LB 'incidents' over the past few years, whether this is connected to the pressure of trying to grant blocks in the smallest gap available I dont know, but certainly needs to be looked at.

Working nights doesn't necessarily remove the "waiting" aspect, it just moves where the waiting takes place to the van or the depot. One of our frequent T3 possessions typically gives us access from 0130 to 0430, but some lines are reopened an hour earlier which severely limits the work that can be done. Others are generally similar in timespan, maybe half an hour longer on the odd occasion. If an overhead isolation is required then getting that arranged quickly eats into the time, as does any delays.

The big problem with everyone doing everything at night is that quite often multiple people end up being in the same place at the same time and that tends to cause issues:

• Two groups of people who would be working on top of each other.
• Work falling into exclusion zones for other work (welding/on-track plant etc).
• Work that requires points to be moved under power, but there's so many people milling around that instead of it being a 30 second phonecall you have to waste a couple of minutes sending someone up the other end to make sure no one else starts getting in harms way.
• Work that requires points to be moved under power, but someone else has a trolley or machine on the line that's occupying the track circuit and locking the points, so first you have to go and get it moved.
• Work that requires a trolley to get equipment to site, but there's several other trolleys out that night and they're all getting in the way of each other because you can't "overtake" and need points setting in different directions to get to where you need to go.
• Work that requires signals to be cleared or routes to be set, but the signaller isn't willing to do that because it would involve moving points with no idea if people are clear of them or not.
• Work that cannot be done because it would break the integrity of the possession (protecting signals cleared or points moved).
• No T3 possession in place so it's booked as a line block, but someone else also wants to be there and neither party has someone with Protection Controller (PC) competence.

Quite often I'll get a couple of days worth of work and it's down to me to divide it between the days. I'll start the shift by planning how to do it efficiently, but then find out that someone else's work is conflicting with that, and instead of being able to do it logically and sensibly we just have to do get whatever we can done whenever we can and jump about the place. If even more people are put onto nights then it's only going to get worse.

Pushing everything onto nights solves some issues, but it's not the panacea that some people make it out to be. We need better solutions that involve getting daytime access where we can, even if that's just the cess being cleared and walking routes maintained so that work that doesn't involve going on the track can be accessed and completed separated.

 

[Trothy]

Slightly begrudged yes vote for me in the referendum. Among signallers/SSMs at our location if say it feels very 50/50. I'd imagine a yes vote will go through this time though.

 

[LAX54]

Working nights doesn't necessarily remove the "waiting" aspect, it just moves where the waiting takes place to the van or the depot. One of our frequent T3 possessions typically gives us access from 0130 to 0430, but some lines are reopened an hour earlier which severely limits the work that can be done. Others are generally similar in timespan, maybe half an hour longer on the odd occasion. If an overhead isolation is required then getting that arranged quickly eats into the time, as does any delays.

The big problem with everyone doing everything at night is that quite often multiple people end up being in the same place at the same time and that tends to cause issues:

• Two groups of people who would be working on top of each other.
• Work falling into exclusion zones for other work (welding/on-track plant etc).
• Work that requires points to be moved under power, but there's so many people milling around that instead of it being a 30 second phonecall you have to waste a couple of minutes sending someone up the other end to make sure no one else starts getting in harms way.
• Work that requires points to be moved under power, but someone else has a trolley or machine on the line that's occupying the track circuit and locking the points, so first you have to go and get it moved.
• Work that requires a trolley to get equipment to site, but there's several other trolleys out that night and they're all getting in the way of each other because you can't "overtake" and need points setting in different directions to get to where you need to go.
• Work that requires signals to be cleared or routes to be set, but the signaller isn't willing to do that because it would involve moving points with no idea if people are clear of them or not.
• Work that cannot be done because it would break the integrity of the possession (protecting signals cleared or points moved).
• No T3 possession in place so it's booked as a line block, but someone else also wants to be there and neither party has someone with Protection Controller (PC) competence.

Quite often I'll get a couple of days worth of work and it's down to me to divide it between the days. I'll start the shift by planning how to do it efficiently, but then find out that someone else's work is conflicting with that, and instead of being able to do it logically and sensibly we just have to do get whatever we can done whenever we can and jump about the place. If even more people are put onto nights then it's only going to get worse.

Pushing everything onto nights solves some issues, but it's not the panacea that some people make it out to be. We need better solutions that involve getting daytime access where we can, even if that's just the cess being cleared and walking routes maintained so that work that doesn't involve going on the track can be accessed and completed separated.

It needs a new approach, one that was adopted in my old area, after a suggestion from a member of P Way, they now do overnight cyclic blocks covering quite a big area, and they are every night for 4 or 5 nights.
starts about 2330 / 0000 and goes through to about 0430/0445
Freight traffic is diverted (quite a long way round) the last passenger terminates short, and has an RRB to cover the rest of the trip, the blocj can cover anything from 10 to 25 miles depending on the week, and all departments can apply to be part of the possession S&T / Ultra Sonics / Pway etc
It needs the TOC and the FOC to be on board too, and the benefits expalined to them, without them it will not work
Obviously you cannot cover everything, and work still has to be done during the daytime, but with a 15 min / 20 min service plus freights on certain hours, with 4 aspect signalling, and in order the get a green, then actual 'track time' can be just minutes !
You cannot move everything onto nights, but some of the work, would be better, and overall quicker at night, with some things, you could probably do more in 2 or 3 hours than you could in 2 days in daylight !

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Mar 2023 ==

Slightly begrudged yes vote for me in the referendum. Among signallers/SSMs at our location if say it feels very 50/50. I'd imagine a yes vote will go through this time though.

My old location, those that are still in the RMT (December did for a few of them) most are 'for' agreement.

 

[Scott1]

Certainly the feeling is that more want to settle the dispute than not. At least, that’s what the reps are saying.

That's what I'm hearing on the NR side, but not on the TOC side, certainly on my patch anyway. The problem on the TOC side for some of us isn't that we are actually against most of the proposals, but that there is so little detail it's hard to know.

 

[Bald Rick]

That's what I'm hearing on the NR side, but not on the TOC side, certainly on my patch anyway. The problem on the TOC side for some of us isn't that we are actually against most of the proposals, but that there is so little detail it's hard to know.

I was referring to the NR dispute, as that is what this thread is about.

 

[The Planner]

It needs a new approach, one that was adopted in my old area, after a suggestion from a member of P Way, they now do overnight cyclic blocks covering quite a big area, and they are every night for 4 or 5 nights.
starts about 2330 / 0000 and goes through to about 0430/0445
Freight traffic is diverted (quite a long way round) the last passenger terminates short, and has an RRB to cover the rest of the trip, the blocj can cover anything from 10 to 25 miles depending on the week, and all departments can apply to be part of the possession S&T / Ultra Sonics / Pway etc
It needs the TOC and the FOC to be on board too, and the benefits expalined to them, without them it will not work
Obviously you cannot cover everything, and work still has to be done during the daytime, but with a 15 min / 20 min service plus freights on certain hours, with 4 aspect signalling, and in order the get a green, then actual 'track time' can be just minutes !
You cannot move everything onto nights, but some of the work, would be better, and overall quicker at night, with some things, you could probably do more in 2 or 3 hours than you could in 2 days in daylight !

Those are section 5 opportunities (cyclical) in the Engineering Access Statement (EAS), the whole country relies on those as the normal section 4 (white periods, no booked service etc etc) aren't always enough.

 

[LAX54]

Those are section 5 opportunities (cyclical) in the Engineering Access Statement (EAS), the whole country relies on those as the normal section 4 (white periods, no booked service etc etc) aren't always enough.

Think we had A to B for a week, then B to C, followed the week after by C to D, then a 3 week break or so, then start again, but it does, or did need FOCs and the TOCs on board to alter their services to cater for it.

 

[The Planner]

Think we had A to B for a week, then B to C, followed the week after by C to D, then a 3 week break or so, then start again, but it does, or did need FOCs and the TOCs on board to alter their services to cater for it.

That is the difficult bit. Easy (generally) for TOCs, but FOCs end up having a WTT schedule they can never run as its diverted every week at some point in its journey.

 

[Bertie the bus]

If they are seeking to impose modernising maintenance, isn't that just likely to lead to a new dispute with RMT?

No. The RMT have stated that if their members vote to accept the dispute has ended. They will oppose the changes but that opposition is limited to:

“We may be able to continue to challenge modernising maintenance in the company processes and through raising our safety concerns to the regulator, but this dispute will be concluded.”

MSN

 

[eldomtom2]

So what is the precise legal situation here? Does the new contract contain language in it about "modernising maintenance"?

 

[alxndr]

So what is the precise legal situation here? Does the new contract contain language in it about "modernising maintenance"?

The only "new contract" is for those who choose to take up the offer to switch onto the ex-Carillion/GTRM one in 2024 or choose to do so later on when the option is offered again upon promotion. There is no new contract as default.

The company believes that all the changes they wish to bring in are already permitted under the existing contracts, but the RMT believes that they may have a case to say this is not so. I'm not sure what grounds they think they have a case.

 

[Bald Rick]

but the RMT believes that they may have a case to say this is not so.

They don’t believe that any more.

 

[Exscrew]

Well from my point of view as a signaller I will be voting NO, im not shafting my maintenance colleagues... firstly on principle and secondly we will need them when NWR decide that ops need "modernising", as us signallers will not be allowed to engage in strike action to fight against it. Think long term people

And the "MM is not in this deal" people it kind of is as we will no longer be able to strike to fight it.

This whole thing is the slow death of the railways for staff and people are jumping for a very average pay rise in exchange for selling terms.

Even the signalling terms are vague and dodgy IMHO.