TfW 175 shortages

[43096]

If TfW are accepting liability for it, they can simply return the trains as they are and pay liquidated damages. They may not be accepting the full cost however, so it could be subject to negotiation. If insurance cover on them does come into play, that could cover some of TfW's costs.

It’s not for TfW to decide: the ROSCO holds the cards in terms of return condition.

 

[Razorblades]

Victoria - Clapham Jn - Shepherd's bush - Lancaster Gate - short walk.

Presumably the train required the services of a conductor driver etc... Who'd have thought 175s were cleared round there?

 

[SuperLuke2334]

I don't know how long it would take to find rotas that worked, was hoping it might be possible from the summer when the Cambrian needs its 158s back. I appreciate staffing is tight but I do not think it needs that many to run an additional train from Manchester to Crewe. Maybe it does, and if the overtime ban continues then I can see that it is impossible.

It feels like the situation at the moment is one of finding reasons why things cannot be done and it does not matter what sort of company is running the trains. When Arriva were kicked off everything was about how great TfW would be but my experience has been anything but.

I would still look seriously at Crewe to terminate the Manchester trains until there are enough units available to run more than a single 150 on the Marches. Knowing that you have to be at Piccadilly for the xx06 Northern to Crewe is absolutely fine, because presently to catch the xx30 you have to be at Piccadilly in time for the inward working.

It might help to stop selling advance tickets for the change at Crewe onto London trains, that surely can be changed to the Northern services for ticket acceptance between Manchester and Crewe.

Its coming to something when waiting at Piccadilly the 4 car Northerns on Buxton/Chester runs inspire jealousy.

More 197s should be in Marches service by then so hopefully the 158 need will decrease. More Mk4s planned on Manchesters from May TT too, having removed some of the Holyhead services that are Mk4, reverting to units.

 

[Caaardiff]

I wouldn't exactly say TFW are "scraping by"
Currently these services are suspended

Chester - Liverpool
Wrexham - Bidston
Blaenau Branch
Birmingham services terminating Wolverhampton
Shrewsbury - Aberystwyth services (Not the BHM/WVH services)
Carmarthen - Milford Haven (Not including early morning and late night)
Carmarthen/Cardiff/Swansea - Fishguard (Select services)
Newport - Cross Keys
Many Valleys services

All to free up units. That's a fair whack of the network.

If TFW had any sense they would put Mk4's on Cardiff - Manchester only now, not in May. Leave Cardiff - Holyhead to another unit.

The 170's had already been extended beyond the original agreed timescale to EMR, but hopefully sense will prevail given the current situation and all 8 of them can be kept. There was talk about 4 or 5 of them leaving by May.

3 175's are out today, 003, 006 and 011.
Apparently it's all down to radiator issues.

Some photos doing the rounds of Holyhead

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ryanlloyd96/52745634983/in/photostream/

 

[Topological]

More 197s should be in Marches service by then so hopefully the 158 need will decrease. More Mk4s planned on Manchesters from May TT too, having removed some of the Holyhead services that are Mk4, reverting to units.

That would be nice, but it feels like the narrative is towards December for the 197s. The Mk4 have not exactly proved reliable on the route, and they have been running Holyhead's for long enough now to be more reliable than they are.

Its already effectively a one every 2 hours service since the Cardiff splits do not have connections. The hope is to know that either the train from Swansea can make it north, or that sufficient allowance has been made that the Cardiff connections will work and that the train that does the part from Cardiff will have space.

Seeing the picture of Holyhead that @Caaardiff just posted makes me wonder whether any attempt is actually being made to get the 175s back into service quickly. In my head the 197s have been moved out of the way to allow the 175s to be prioritised to help passengers.

 

[Anonymous10]

I wouldn't exactly say TFW are "scraping by"
Currently these services are suspended

Chester - Liverpool
Wrexham - Bidston
Blaenau Branch
Birmingham services terminating Wolverhampton
Shrewsbury - Aberystwyth services (Not the BHM/WVH services)
Carmarthen - Milford Haven (Not including early morning and late night)
Carmarthen/Cardiff/Swansea - Fishguard (Select services)
Newport - Cross Keys
Many Valleys services

All to free up units. That's a fair whack of the network.

If TFW had any sense they would put Mk4's on Cardiff - Manchester only now, not in May. Leave Cardiff - Holyhead to another unit.

The 170's had already been extended beyond the original agreed timescale to EMR, but hopefully sense will prevail given the current situation and all 8 of them can be kept. There was talk about 4 or 5 of them leaving by May.

3 175's are out today, 003, 006 and 011.
Apparently it's all down to radiator issues.

Some photos doing the rounds of Holyhead

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ryanlloyd96/52745634983/in/photostream/

That is a sad sight and gives an idea of the scale of the problem that lies ahead

 

[Starmill]

It’s not for TfW to decide: the ROSCO holds the cards in terms of return condition.

TfW could be of the view that the rolling stock doesn't meet the original contract specification and that's the cause of the fire damage. However this depends on the commercially confidential terms. Lessees may also try to hand back trains early if they are of the opinion that they're not compliant.

 

[43096]

TfW could be of the view that the rolling stock doesn't meet the original contract specification and that's the cause of the fire damage. However this depends on the commercially confidential terms. Lessees may also try to hand back trains early if they are of the opinion that they're not compliant.

They can try. I bet they wouldn’t succeed. Apart from anything else, it is TfW who have changed the maintenance provider.

 

[Caaardiff]

TfW could be of the view that the rolling stock doesn't meet the original contract specification and that's the cause of the fire damage. However this depends on the commercially confidential terms. Lessees may also try to hand back trains early if they are of the opinion that they're not compliant.

I would imagine if TFW were held accountable by the leasing company, that TFW would be looking to hold Alstom (or CAF) responsible for the maintenance issues.
Alstom Chester weren't TFW owned. Different if the maintenance was in house like Canton or Machynlleth.

 

[Jez]

Ohh I was forgetting the 170s have to get gone. They need the 175s for Maesteg Cheltenhams don’t they.

@Jez RE your last comment, Manchester Llandudno is not yet exclusively 197. I’ve seen there are some Sprinters and 175s still doing stuff.

Yes apparently 175s are going on Maesteg and Cheltenham and 150s on Ebbw Vale from May when the 170s are meant to be going. But Todays Railways magazine said they are in talks about keeping some 170s a bit longer. So it sounds to me like they are expecting the 175s to be out of service for some time?

Yes was aware there are still some 175s involved with the Manchester-Llandudno but surely cancelling Conwy Valley etc should free up some 197s for other routes otherwise they might as well just run it as a train.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Mar 2023 ==

I wouldn't exactly say TFW are "scraping by"
Currently these services are suspended

Chester - Liverpool
Wrexham - Bidston
Blaenau Branch
Birmingham services terminating Wolverhampton
Shrewsbury - Aberystwyth services (Not the BHM/WVH services)
Carmarthen - Milford Haven (Not including early morning and late night)
Carmarthen/Cardiff/Swansea - Fishguard (Select services)
Newport - Cross Keys
Many Valleys services

All to free up units. That's a fair whack of the network.

If TFW had any sense they would put Mk4's on Cardiff - Manchester only now, not in May. Leave Cardiff - Holyhead to another unit.

The 170's had already been extended beyond the original agreed timescale to EMR, but hopefully sense will prevail given the current situation and all 8 of them can be kept. There was talk about 4 or 5 of them leaving by May.

3 175's are out today, 003, 006 and 011.
Apparently it's all down to radiator issues.

Some photos doing the rounds of Holyhead

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ryanlloyd96/52745634983/in/photostream/

Its a shambles at the moment and we all said last Summer that Summer 2023 would be a marked improvement. The way things are going I can still see the same issues this Summer on the Marches and North Wales coast (unless of course 197s can double up in North Wales).

 

[Starmill]

They can try. I bet they wouldn’t succeed. Apart from anything else, it is TfW who have changed the maintenance provider.

Whether they would succeed or not is a matter for negotiation, and we'd probably never find out, unless TfW are just going to pay up a whole load of money of course.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I don’t know who it was that attached this photo earlier, I can’t remember and only have it as I screenshotted to show someone, but as a fan of these DMUs I just think it’s so sad. What a disaparaging, unfortunate way for nice units to end their fairly short lives. I feel as though there’s no chance they’ll be taken on by anyone else now. I only hope I’ll get an opportunity for one more ride when I’m back in the UK in late June.

 

[Express380]

Today has seen 175003,006,011,116 out in service today according to RTT, hopefully more will follow 116 and will slowly start to see an increase.

 

[185143]

Today has seen 175003,006,011,116 out in service today according to RTT, hopefully more will follow 116 and will slowly start to see an increase.

116 was out on Sunday, so not a recent change.

 

[Express380]

116 was out on Sunday, so not a recent change.

Apologies hadn't noticed that

 

[animationmilo]

003, 006, 011 out and 003 is on Central Wales line via Llanwrtyd to Swansea
0856 from Shrewsbury

 

[Caaardiff]

Almost the entire 175 fleet out of service and they use one of the three available on the heart of wales! Madness.

 

[_toommm_]

Almost the entire 175 fleet out of service and they use one of the three available on the heart of wales! Madness.

Looks like a positioning move to be fair, as it’s going onto 1B63, with 150254 coming off it and going onto the HoW line.

 

[Topological]

I now wonder whether there is a reason the 175/0 are coming back into service before the 175/1. It might have been thought they would have looked to get 175/1 into service for the most crowded trains.

I am assuming here that much of the maintenance time is the fixed cost of moving units around, running through washers, emptying any tanks etc., and that the marginal part of adding another carriage to inspect is not as major a time component.

 

[animationmilo]

I now wonder whether there is a reason the 175/0 are coming back into service before the 175/1. It might have been thought they would have looked to get 175/1 into service for the most crowded trains.

I am assuming here that much of the maintenance time is the fixed cost of moving units around, running through washers, emptying any tanks etc., and that the marginal part of adding another carriage to inspect is not as major a time component.

003, 006, 011 seem to be working sets

 

[sd0733]

I now wonder whether there is a reason the 175/0 are coming back into service before the 175/1. It might have been thought they would have looked to get 175/1 into service for the most crowded trains.

As i understand it it is deliberate. The situation is so dire that if it takes x amount of time/manpower per engine then it's seen as more beneficial to get a 2 car back in 2/3rds of the time, an extra unit released into service.
After 6 engines for example are repaired you've then got 3 2 car units in service rather than 2 3s, whilst some services can do with the capacity that extra set in service is 2 cars instead of 0 for a diagram.

 

[Topological]

As i understand it it is deliberate. The situation is so dire that if it takes x amount of time/manpower per engine then it's seen as more beneficial to get a 2 car back in 2/3rds of the time, an extra unit released into service.
After 6 engines for example are repaired you've then got 3 2 car units in service rather than 2 3s, whilst some services can do with the capacity that extra set in service is 2 cars instead of 0 for a diagram.

Thanks

So the per engine time is large relative to the per unit time.

In that case definitely right to get the /0 out first.

Hope they get onto the /1 soon though, 2 carriages is really not enough for the Manchester trains.

 

[Jez]

Almost the entire 175 fleet out of service and they use one of the three available on the heart of wales! Madness.

Usually when one is used on the HOW its either because of disruption of some sort or the line is closed on the Marches.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Mar 2023 ==

As i understand it it is deliberate. The situation is so dire that if it takes x amount of time/manpower per engine then it's seen as more beneficial to get a 2 car back in 2/3rds of the time, an extra unit released into service.
After 6 engines for example are repaired you've then got 3 2 car units in service rather than 2 3s, whilst some services can do with the capacity that extra set in service is 2 cars instead of 0 for a diagram.

it makes sense the 2 cars come back first as it will be faster to fix them with just 2 carriages. It was the same when they refurbished them, didn't the 2 car sets for the most part get done before the 3 cars?

 

[Starmill]

Hope they get onto the /1 soon though, 2 carriages is really not enough for the Manchester trains.

Returning two cars to service more quickly could be the way to restore the three car diagrams though, because they do have the option to use a triple 153, or a 158+153.

Likely they'll try to get everything covered with a two car (other than the 153 solo work of course) first though and then return to the three car diagrams.

 

[tomm]

They had them in summer 2007 think it was on heart of Wales when engineering works on the marches plus 175006 went down to Llanwrtyed on 09:05 Shrewsbury terminated on Saturday 27th November 2010 Arriva replacing 153312 which was extremely delayed due to points freeing.

 

[Jez]

They had them in summer 2007 think it was on heart of Wales when engineering works on the marches plus 175006 went down to Llanwrtyed on 09:05 Shrewsbury terminated on Saturday 27th November 2010 Arriva replacing 153312 which was extremely delayed due to points freeing.

I think this may be the 5th time (at least) that a 175 has been on the HOWL in passenger service. The twice you mentioned above plus a few years ago a 153 due to run the HOWL had a fault and needed to get back to Canton from Swansa. So they swapped the 175 due to do the 1510 Chester service and sent the 153 on the Chester service as far as Cardiff. The 175 then did the 1435 HOWL from Swansea. The other time was during the Royal Welsh Show. Cant remember the year but a 175 did the show special on one of days a few years back.

But it sure is very rare for a 175 to be on the HOWL. Wonder if this will be the last time before they get withdrawn!

 

[Parallel]

The other time was during the Royal Welsh Show. Cant remember the year but a 175 did the show special on one of days a few years back.

It did indeed! I used it in 2018. Photo attached of it departing Ffairfach towards Builth Road.

 

[The Prisoner]

Plaid Cymru MS Delyth Jewell is saying that a change of maintenance regime has caused the issue:

https://www.deeside.com/politician-...of-transport-for-wales-class-175-train-fires/

“Now, as I understand it, the enclosed engine of the trains requires regular cleaning to prevent fires. ‌‌‌‍‌‌‌‌‌‍‌‌‌‌‍‌‌‌‌‌‌‍‌‌‌‌‌ ‌‌‌‌‌‌‍‌‌‌‌‌‍‌‌‌‌‌

“This has been managed by the maintenance teams at Canton depot, but apparently the maintenance contract was recently transferred to a new provider. Minor repairs at the Canton depot have now stopped. ‌‌‌‍‌‌‌‌‌‍‌‌‌‌‍‌‌‌‌‌‌‍‌‌‌‌‌ ‌‌‌‌‌‌‍‌‌‌‌‌‍‌‌‌‌‌

 

[Andy Pacer]

Looks like a positioning move to be fair, as it’s going onto 1B63, with 150254 coming off it and going onto the HoW line.

Looks like it had problems en route, finally arriving in Swansea 2 hours late.

 

[Russel]

Without reading through all 14 pages, has the defect that has been causing the fires been identified yet?

I was looking to do a day in North Wales in mid April, I think I should maybe hold off for a few more weeks.