TfW 175 shortages

[MOONY]

Hi,

I suspect I may have missed something here, so apologies in advance, but can anyone explain the recent chronic shortages of Class 175s on the South Wales to Manchester services please? This does not appear to have any relevance to the introduction of Mk 4 sets that I can see.

MTIA


Moony

 

[JonathanH]

recent chronic shortages of Class 175s

What are the symptoms of a 'chronic shortage of 175s'? 150 / 153 substitutions or cancellations?

Looking at RTT
175001 - Holyhead off 5D48 0233 Holyhead to Holyhead Car. M.D.
175002 - not in service
175003 - 1V41 1147½ Wilmslow to Swansea
175004 - 1W22 1445 Swansea to Manchester Piccadilly
175005 - not in service
175006 - 1B63 1357 Swansea to Cardiff Central
175007 - 1W63 1650 Cardiff Central to Manchester Piccadilly
175008 - 2B99 1431 Swansea to Cardiff Central
175009 - 1H90 1443 Llandudno to Manchester Airport
175010 - 1W22 1445 Swansea to Manchester Piccadilly
175011 - not in service

175101 - 1V96 1102 Bangor (Gwynedd) to Cardiff Central
175102 - 2B67 1512 Cardiff Central to Swansea
175103 - not in service
175104 - 1D37 1225 Manchester Airport to Llandudno
175105 - 1W18 1045 Swansea to Manchester Piccadilly
175106 - 1H89 1332 Bangor (Gwynedd) to Manchester Airport
175107 - 1W60 1246 Swansea to Manchester Piccadilly
175108 - not in service
175109 - not in service
175110 - not in service
175111 - not in service
175112 - Chester off 5D68 0034 Chester to Chester D.M.U.D.
175113 - not in service
175114 - 2B43 1550 Carmarthen to Milford Haven
175115 - 1H88 1240 Llandudno to Manchester Airport
175116 - 2B41 1401 Carmarthen to Milford Haven

On the Manchester to Cardiff / Swansea route, Manchester departures showing as
0627 153329+153922
0730 175107
0830 153361+153906
0930 175004+175010
1030 175007
1130 175003 (started Wilmslow)
1230 150285
1330 150262
1430 150241 to Shrewsbury, 153362+153935 further south
1530 175105
1630 158819
1730 175107
1830 153367+153921
1930 175004
2030 175010
2130 175102
2233 ?

Seems there are two things going on. 175s operating services off the Manchester to Cardiff route and 153 / 150 substitutions.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Hi,

I suspect I may have missed something here, so apologies in advance, but can anyone explain the recent chronic shortages of Class 175s on the South Wales to Manchester services please? This does not appear to have any relevance to the introduction of Mk 4 sets that I can see.

MTIA


Moony

A couple of 175s are out of use awaiting parts or exam authorisation. 011 is in the new sidings at Holyhead apparently in warm storage.

 

[Western 52]

Maybe fewer needed this week as Swansea to Carmarthen is closed for engineering works?

 

[Bikeman78]

On the Manchester to Cardiff / Swansea route, Manchester departures showing as
0627 153329+153922
0730 175107
0830 153361+153906
0930 175004+175010
1030 175007
1130 175003 (started Wilmslow)
1230 150285
1330 150262
1430 150241 to Shrewsbury, 153362+153935 further south
1530 175105
1630 158819
1730 175107
1830 153367+153921
1930 175004
2030 175010
2130 175102
2233 ?

Determined train crew on those 150s, looking at RTT. 150241 is usually a solid performer in my experience. There appears to be a problem between Shrewsbury and Crewe. That is where most of the time was lost on all three runs.

 

[MOONY]

Many thanks folks.

Moony

 

[Jez]

I have noticed for months there has been at least 3 or 4 sprinters covering for 175 diagrams each day. Usually a 150 or pair of 153s. Sometimes a 158 but they are pretty much taken up with the Cambrian/Birmingham/Holyhead services. Some days it has been far more than 3 or 4 diagrams covered by a 150 or pair of 153s

I assume the reason is because the 197s have now arrived at Chester depot and therefore there are less 175s ready for service each day. Also as mentioned above some are needing repairs. By the end of the year the 175s should have gone and been replaced by the 197s on all diagrams.

Maybe fewer needed this week as Swansea to Carmarthen is closed for engineering works?

In theory that should mean they are able to provide a 175 for most Manchester-South Wales services as less diagrams with them turning at Swansea. But still an abundance of sprinters on the route this week.

What are the symptoms of a 'chronic shortage of 175s'? 150 / 153 substitutions or cancellations?

Looking at RTT
175001 - Holyhead off 5D48 0233 Holyhead to Holyhead Car. M.D.
175002 - not in service
175003 - 1V41 1147½ Wilmslow to Swansea
175004 - 1W22 1445 Swansea to Manchester Piccadilly
175005 - not in service
175006 - 1B63 1357 Swansea to Cardiff Central
175007 - 1W63 1650 Cardiff Central to Manchester Piccadilly
175008 - 2B99 1431 Swansea to Cardiff Central
175009 - 1H90 1443 Llandudno to Manchester Airport
175010 - 1W22 1445 Swansea to Manchester Piccadilly
175011 - not in service

175101 - 1V96 1102 Bangor (Gwynedd) to Cardiff Central
175102 - 2B67 1512 Cardiff Central to Swansea
175103 - not in service
175104 - 1D37 1225 Manchester Airport to Llandudno
175105 - 1W18 1045 Swansea to Manchester Piccadilly
175106 - 1H89 1332 Bangor (Gwynedd) to Manchester Airport
175107 - 1W60 1246 Swansea to Manchester Piccadilly
175108 - not in service
175109 - not in service
175110 - not in service
175111 - not in service
175112 - Chester off 5D68 0034 Chester to Chester D.M.U.D.
175113 - not in service
175114 - 2B43 1550 Carmarthen to Milford Haven
175115 - 1H88 1240 Llandudno to Manchester Airport
175116 - 2B41 1401 Carmarthen to Milford Haven

On the Manchester to Cardiff / Swansea route, Manchester departures showing as
0627 153329+153922
0730 175107
0830 153361+153906
0930 175004+175010
1030 175007
1130 175003 (started Wilmslow)
1230 150285
1330 150262
1430 150241 to Shrewsbury, 153362+153935 further south
1530 175105
1630 158819
1730 175107
1830 153367+153921
1930 175004
2030 175010
2130 175102
2233 ?

Seems there are two things going on. 175s operating services off the Manchester to Cardiff route and 153 / 150 substitutions.

Looking at that list I make that 9 not in service today. I think 23 were booked on Saturdays and 24 in the week out of the total 27 (correct me if im wrong) so that's 5 extra that are not in service that should be. The 23 on a Saturday accounts for the 0630 Manchester diagram being booked for a 158 on Saturday which ends with the 1930 Manchester-Cardiff. Its not unusual for that 158 booked diagram to also be subbed for a 150 or pair or 153s. Infact recently it seems to be almost always a 150.

Unsure how many 175s are booked on Sundays. Possibly less as there has always been a lot of 150s/158s on Sundays.

This has been going on long before the December TT change with the MK4 booked services so I dont think its a result of 175s covering for MK4. In theory there should be more than enough 175s with some 197s and MK4 in service on what used to be their diagrams. But clearly there is not.

 

[Bevan Price]

197s have started appearing on Manchester / North Wales services - two each on 19/20 January, but only one diagram today (21 January)

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

197s have started appearing on Manchester / North Wales services - two each on 19/20 January, but only one diagram today (21 January)

Yes, since 19th December.

 

[Jamesrob637]

How many should be out of use at a given point? That number seems excessive.

 

[CaergwrleKen]

Current TfW diagrams are distorted by West Wales closures, mk4 availability and Valleys engineering. Best guess is there are currently approx 18 diagrams currently for the 175 fleet since 197 and enhanced mk4 introduction which would indicate that there isn’t actually a shortage of them as such. On recent viewings/reports 002 011 103 108 111 113 appear to be currently out of use which would leave approx 21 units for 18 diagrams. The concern is that Chester are now concentrating on 197s and there doesn’t appear to be a set plan for their maintenance, storage or future TOC use leaving them in limbo somewhat. A shame for a unit that despite various issues is 100mph capable, has a decent Inter City style interior and has given fairly solid service over the last 20 years.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

On the Manchester to Cardiff / Swansea route, Manchester departures showing as
0627 153329+153922
0830 153361+153906
1230 150285
1330 150262
1430 150241 to Shrewsbury, 153362+153935 further south
1630 158819
1830 153367+153921

I’m sorry, but that many Sprinters on the route is appalling. No less than twelve Sprinters on the route all in 2 carriage formations.

 

[Jez]

I’m sorry, but that many Sprinters on the route is appalling. No less than twelve Sprinters on the route all in 2 carriage formations.

I agree it's dreadful. A 158 is acceptable but not so many 150s and 153s. 3 consecutive hours between 1230-1430 all 150s!

How many should be out of use at a given point? That number seems excessive.

Used to be 3 or 4 each day booked for maintenance I think. So 23 or 24 diagrams.

Current TfW diagrams are distorted by West Wales closures, mk4 availability and Valleys engineering. Best guess is there are currently approx 18 diagrams currently for the 175 fleet since 197 and enhanced mk4 introduction which would indicate that there isn’t actually a shortage of them as such. On recent viewings/reports 002 011 103 108 111 113 appear to be currently out of use which would leave approx 21 units for 18 diagrams. The concern is that Chester are now concentrating on 197s and there doesn’t appear to be a set plan for their maintenance, storage or future TOC use leaving them in limbo somewhat. A shame for a unit that despite various issues is 100mph capable, has a decent Inter City style interior and has given fairly solid service over the last 20 years.

Hopefully once the 197s start appearing on more diagrams and the MK4s improve reliability it won't be so noticeable the lack of 175s. If the plan is for 175s to cover some 170s diagrams when they go then being subbed for sprinters won't seem so bad on routes like Ebbw Vale and Maesteg who were used to seeing sprinters until the 170s arrived.

 

[Caaardiff]

Some of those sprinters covering Manchester services are probably partly down to the Mk4 reliability issues, mixed in with 175 maintenance issues.

 

[childwallblues]

Yesterday morning there were 4 x 175 in the sidings at Chester, three of which were 175/1. 197010 and 197002 were on MIA-LLD and 158826 on CTR-LIV.

 

[Jez]

According to RTT the 0857 Milford Haven to Crewe is a single 153 (153320). Running 10 mins late currently.

Something that crossed my mind the other day is what was the 0630 Manchester to Milford on a Saturday that used to be the booked 158 working now gets split at Cardiff is is the 0627 Manchester to Cardiff booked for a MK4 (even though it might not be a MK4 at the moment). I guess that puts an end to 158s being officially booked for any Manchester-South Wales runs apart from maybe a Sunday.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

According to RTT the 0857 Milford Haven to Crewe is a single 153 (153320). Running 10 mins late currently.

Something that crossed my mind the other day is what was the 0630 Manchester to Milford on a Saturday that used to be the booked 158 working now gets split at Cardiff is is the 0627 Manchester to Cardiff booked for a MK4 (even though it might not be a MK4 at the moment). I guess that puts an end to 158s being officially booked for any Manchester-South Wales runs apart from maybe a Sunday.

0627 is one of the usual Mk4s now.

 

[Jez]

0627 is one of the usual Mk4s now.

So the replacement from Cardiff to Milford 1005 departure is no longer booked as a 158 on Saturday now it starts at Cardiff?

 

[sd0733]

So the replacement from Cardiff to Milford 1005 departure is no longer booked as a 158 on Saturday now it starts at Cardiff?

Its the Northern 150 on it today but its a CH7xx diagram so booked 175

 

[Jez]

A quick look at RTT shows there were more sprinters than 175s yesterday on the Crewe-Cardiff/Carmarthen/Pembroke runs. Wouldn't fancy doing 6 hours from Crewe-Pembroke Dock on a pair of 153s! Crewe to Neath was bad enough on a freezing cold 153 back in December.

 

[Western 52]

Several 175s in west Wales today, including 175001 on the Pembroke line.

 

[Krokodil]

175011 and 175108 dumped at Holyhead to make room at Chester. Several other demic units in Chester Middle Yard. Basically Chester DMUD only had one spare slot per night on top of the 175 maintenance to perform maintenance on 197s. Therefore as 197s have entered service, 175s have had to be sidelined because there is no capacity to maintain them. Bear in mind that some of the 197s are not available for passenger use (such as those on crew training) but still have to be maintained. To fill the gaps 15x get poached off of Valley Lines diagrams, with services on the latter either short-formed or cancelled.

 

[paddyb6]

175011 and 175108 dumped at Holyhead to make room at Chester. Several other demic units in Chester Middle Yard. Basically Chester DMUD only had one spare slot per night on top of the 175 maintenance to perform maintenance on 197s. Therefore as 197s have entered service, 175s have had to be sidelined because there is no capacity to maintain them. Bear in mind that some of the 197s are not available for passenger use (such as those on crew training) but still have to be maintained. To fill the gaps 15x get poached off of Valley Lines diagrams, with services on the latter either short-formed or cancelled.

Are 175011 and 175108 now out of service permanently?

 

[Krokodil]

I think that a Holyhead driver has to go out each day and start them up but yes, I doubt that they'll see service in Wales again. What happens next will depend on if the ROSCO can find a new home for them.

 

[12LDA28C]

I think that a Holyhead driver has to go out each day and start them up but yes, I doubt that they'll see service in Wales again. What happens next will depend on if the ROSCO can find a new home for them.

175s have been mentioned as one of the options being looked at by Chiltern Railways

 

[D365]

175s have been mentioned as one of the options being looked at by Chiltern Railways

Speculative discussion here.

 

[Llanigraham]

A quick look at RTT shows there were more sprinters than 175s yesterday on the Crewe-Cardiff/Carmarthen/Pembroke runs. Wouldn't fancy doing 6 hours from Crewe-Pembroke Dock on a pair of 153s! Crewe to Neath was bad enough on a freezing cold 153 back in December.

Surely having any train running is better than not having a service at all?

 

[Jez]

Surely having any train running is better than not having a service at all?

Yes I agree. But 4 hours on a freezing cold train isn't great.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Surely having any train running is better than not having a service at all?

Probably the most repeated phrase on this forum.

Not in all circumstances. For those in a rush, yes.
For those with Advance tickets that aren’t in a rush, cancelling the train gives them the opportunity to take the next one which has heating, quiet motors and a more welcoming ambience. If their train still runs they don’t have that option.

 

[Jez]

Probably the most repeated phrase on this forum.

Not in all circumstances. For those in a rush, yes.
For those with Advance tickets that aren’t in a rush, cancelling the train gives them the opportunity to take the next one which has heating, quiet motors and a more welcoming ambience. If their train still runs they don’t have that option.

I agree with you. It would be nice to have the option with an advance ticket to change it to the next service free of charge due to unsuitable rolling stock on the hooked service!

I dont usually mind a 153 that much (not great for 3-4 hours hours but i tolerate it) but this day it was particularly cold, everyone had coats/hats/layers on. I did complain to TFW on twitter and was told the trains had warm and cold spots and to try and move seats if possible. It seemed just as cold elsewhere on the train and it was quite busy so i didnt move.