RMT TOC dispute update

[CFRAIL]

I've just received the following correspondence via email, it seems the RDG wish to negotiate with individual TOCs

Dear RMT Member

DEFEND JOBS, PAY & CONDITIONS – TRAIN OPERATING COMPANIES

I received correspondence from the Rail Delivery Group earlier today which sets out the intention to commence consultations at each individual Train Operating Company for a “Train Operators Programme of Workforce Change.”

The RDG states that this devolved plan at each of the TOCs will see consultation commence in April and conclude by the end of this year.

In response, your National Executive Committee has instructed me to write to the RDG demanding immediate talks on this matter and to discuss all other aspects of the current dispute, including seeking an improved pay offer.

Your NEC has also outlined the following:

Write immediately to each Train Operating Company with which we are in dispute, re-stating our existing pay claims and notifying them that negotiations on our claim commence immediately.

Seek legal opinion on whether the proposed Workforce Change constitutes a contractual matter for negotiation or consultation.

Confirm to those companies that RMT remains in dispute and will take further industrial action should they not provide a suitable proposal for the settlement of the dispute.

Convene a meeting of Lead Officers and Company Council Representatives with the NEC to brief them on our dispute, our negotiating strategy and confirming that all negotiated items must be referred to this NEC for consideration and will not be agreed by this union unless they are subject to NEC ratification.

To vigorously pursue our re-ballot of members in the TOCs as it is crucial that we secure that mandate and continue our campaign and settlements.

To prepare communications and messaging to members to focus their understanding on this new development in the campaign.

I will write to you again with further details of the RDG’s intentions following the meeting, which is currently being arranged. I will also keep you advised of any developments which arise within your own company and of any negotiations that are held.

All industrial action planned remains on and I will provide further information with regards to the re-ballot in due course.

 

[Russel]

So the all important question, what does this mean for us passengers who just want to get from A to B?

 

[CFRAIL]

Individual negotiations make sense given how wildly different T's & C's are. But presumably it reduces the ability of the RMT to cause mass disruption as Individual disputes become settled.

 

[43066]

If this is the beginning of an acknowledgement that negotiations need to happen on a TOC by TOC basis then that’s potentially a positive step forward towards a resolution.

ASLEF needs the same…

 

[Mainsideman]

Is this seen as a good thing? That whole email just confused me

 

[gazzaa2]

I was able to get a normal Merseyrail service today as that's a TOC not in dispute (but still needs the members sign off for the Network Rail offer to avoid further action there). Hopefully if that gets rubberstamped it should be easy for more TOC's to follow.

Some TOC's would settle easier than others. It might be tricker for those with really poor morale/staff and employer relations (TPE/Avanti for example).

 

[High Dyke]

I wonder if that's the letter they weren't going to share with the trade unions, having withdrawn the previous correspondence.

Meanwhile, this news was out today. I'll leave you to consider the information.

Railway Fat Cat pay increases

Fat cat rail bosses award themselves eye watering annual pay hikes while lecturing rail workers on need for pay restraint and reform.

www.rmt.org.uk

 

[dk1]

For a TOC that has less of a gap to conclude the RMT dispute this is good news for their employees. For those where it’s wider then the lack of support on a national scale will be worrying.

 

[driver9000]

Back to negotiations at company level.....exactly as it has been done since privatisation in the 1990s. The DfT and RDG have just wasted a whole year to go back to how it has been done all along!

 

[ValentaFan1974]

I read it as a proposal for the TOCs to force through the workforce changes they want without the pay offer….. the wording isn’t clear for me…

 

[Mainsideman]

I read it as a proposal for the TOCs to force through the workforce changes they want without the pay offer….. the wording isn’t clear for me…

Exactly how I read it

 

[PupCuff]

I perhaps wonder if some people in this thread have skim-read? It is not the pay talks which are going to consultation at each operator it is the proposals for workforce change. You can't make mass workforce changes in a company without undertaking some form of consultation with affected employees and this simply reads as a thinly veiled 'throwing down the gauntlet' - they're going to start the process of change whether the unions are around the table or not.

Whether it is a bluff ahead of any reballot, that would remain to be seen, though I'm unsure whether RDG would want to be seen climbing down.

 

[KM1991]

All this means is the government has told the TOCs to push ahead with implementation.

 

[Silverlinky]

The pay deal is on the table, a full and final offer. TSSA have accepted it, ASLEF is considering it, RMT are still striking. The pay deal is what it is, especially given the 5% offer to NHS staff today, that's the best that anyone is going to get.
There is possibly movement on the backpay, ie push the backpay date back to get a bigger sum whilst keeping the percentage increases the same.

I agree with the above, this is the RDG (Government) throwing down the gauntlet. Change is coming whether the unions or the staff like it or not. Government is playing hardball with the RMT and vice versa. Changes will be consulted on and potentially brought in with or without the RMT, what's the worst that can happen? RMT members go out on strike?

 

[Mainsideman]

I suppose one way or another this is coming to an end.

 

[43066]

I perhaps wonder if some people in this thread have skim-read? It is not the pay talks which are going to consultation at each operator it is the proposals for workforce change. You can't make mass workforce changes in a company without undertaking some form of consultation with affected employees and this simply reads as a thinly veiled 'throwing down the gauntlet' - they're going to start the process of change whether the unions are around the table or not.

Whether it is a bluff ahead of any reballot, that would remain to be seen, though I'm unsure whether RDG would want to be seen climbing down.

In my case I was careful to preface my post with an “if” .

My hope would be that, once the proposals are tailored to each TOC, and are being discussed on a local basis, there will be a framework for a negotiation based on those; there has clearly been an acceptance at some level of government that once size doesn’t fit all.

It altogether sounds a little more pragmatic, and this beleaguered government is perhaps increasingly in the mood to settle disputes to get rid of bad headlines, hence the news regarding the NHS today.

Sorting things out on the railway will be far cheaper.

 

[lammergeier]

The pay deal is on the table, a full and final offer. TSSA have accepted it, ASLEF is considering it, RMT are still striking. The pay deal is what it is, especially given the 5% offer to NHS staff today, that's the best that anyone is going to get.
There is possibly movement on the backpay, ie push the backpay date back to get a bigger sum whilst keeping the percentage increases the same.

I agree with the above, this is the RDG (Government) throwing down the gauntlet. Change is coming whether the unions or the staff like it or not. Government is playing hardball with the RMT and vice versa. Changes will be consulted on and potentially brought in with or without the RMT, what's the worst that can happen? RMT members go out on strike?

ASLEF haven't had a proper offer, hence why they're still in talks. There's nothing to consider (yet.)

 

[Silverlinky]

ASLEF haven't had a proper offer, hence why they're still in talks. There's nothing to consider (yet.)

a "proper" offer? I thought an offer was made in January? 4% and 4% with conditions. I have heard that two weeks of talks will recommence next week to consider whatever has been offered or whatever there is to consider!

 

[43066]

I thought an offer was made in January?

Not a proper one that is anywhere near acceptable to the membership.

Anyway, this thread is about the RMT dispute, so we should try and stick to discussing that.

 

[LowLevel]

In my case I was careful to preface my post with an “if” .

My hope would be that, once the proposals are tailored to each TOC, and are being discussed on a local basis, there will be a framework for a negotiation based on those; there has clearly been an acceptance at some level of government that once size doesn’t fit all.

It altogether sounds a little more pragmatic, and this beleaguered government is perhaps increasingly in the mood to settle disputes to get rid of bad headlines, hence the news regarding the NHS today.

Sorting things out on the railway will be far cheaper.

I'm tending to the pessimistic and they're doing what they did with Network Rail.

 

[Robertj21a]

Surely, even the RMT must finally realise that this is the end ?
The government was never going to allow the significant pay increases that the RMT demanded and it looks like that might be finally sinking in.

 

[dk1]

I suppose one way or another this is coming to an end.

I wouldn’t hold my breath.

 

[lammergeier]

a "proper" offer? I thought an offer was made in January? 4% and 4% with conditions. I have heard that two weeks of talks will recommence next week to consider whatever has been offered or whatever there is to consider!

There is nothing to consider as yet. The unnegotiated 'offer' in January was sent to the press before Aslef, it was a disgraceful way to proceed and resulted in further strike dates being announced. Now cooler heads are prevailing, as you said further talks are planned and the hope is a new offer can be negotiated.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I've just received the following correspondence via email, it seems the RDG wish to negotiate with individual TOCs

If this is the beginning of an acknowledgement that negotiations need to happen on a TOC by TOC basis then that’s potentially a positive step forward towards a resolution.

ASLEF needs the same…

Back to negotiations at company level.....exactly as it has been done since privatisation in the 1990s. The DfT and RDG have just wasted a whole year to go back to how it has been done all along!

You have all misread one vital word.

The email says there will be Consultation at each TOC - not Negotiation.

The two are very different things.

Consultation is basically the employer telling you what they are going to do, and when, and how, and there is little to nothing you can do about it.

I read it as a proposal for the TOCs to force through the workforce changes they want without the pay offer…

Agreed.

I perhaps wonder if some people in this thread have skim-read? It is not the pay talks which are going to consultation at each operator it is the proposals for workforce change. You can't make mass workforce changes in a company without undertaking some form of consultation with affected employees and this simply reads as a thinly veiled 'throwing down the gauntlet' - they're going to start the process of change whether the unions are around the table or not.

Agreed.

All this means is the government has told the TOCs to push ahead with implementation.

Correct.

 

[JonathanH]

I suppose one way or another this is coming to an end.

I wouldn't be so sure. Forcing the issue is hardly going to ease the distrust between the railway and its workers.

 

[Starmill]

Back to negotiations at company level.....exactly as it has been done since privatisation in the 1990s. The DfT and RDG have just wasted a whole year to go back to how it has been done all along!

I'm not sure - does anything in this suggest that further negotiations are even going to take place? Not as if there's even a hope of a settlement if there are no actual negotiations going on.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Mar 2023 ==

a "proper" offer? I thought an offer was made in January? 4% and 4% with conditions. I have heard that two weeks of talks will recommence next week to consider whatever has been offered or whatever there is to consider!

At least with Aslef they're actually negotiating. Are they negotiating with RMT right now? When were they last?

 

[43066]

You have all misread one vital word.

The email says there will be Consultation at each TOC - not Negotiation.

The two are very different things.

Consultation is basically the employer telling you what they are going to do, and when, and how, and there is little to nothing you can do about it.

It didn’t misread - this means there will at least be an ability for local issues to be thrashed out.

The consultation is expressed to run from April until the end of the year. Hire and refire wouldn’t take as long, if that was the route they were going down, and it seems a long period of time to continue the dispute, given how close we will then be getting to election season.

See what happens…

 

[Solent&Wessex]

As alluded to above, my take is that they will make the proposed changes whether the pay rise is agreed or not. It is likely that any changes won't be attached to a pay rise. The consultations at local level will be satisfy legal processes that your employer must consult on changes. The consultation doesn't need union agreement, in practical terms it just means that each individual employer will tell their own staff how the changes will affect them in relation to the actual Ts & Cs they have currently, as opposed to the wishy washy "we want to work towards this but it's up to each TOC to work out how it works best for them" type of framework which was the national agreement.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Mar 2023 ==

It didn’t misread - this means there will at least be an ability for local issues to be thrashed out.

The consultation is expressed to run from April until the end of the year. Hire and refire wouldn’t take as long, if that was the route they were going down, and it seems a long period of time to continue the dispute, given how close we will then be getting to election season.

See what happens…

But the important thing is that the employer doesn't need to get agreement from the union for any changes. So local issues can be discussed - but ultimately the employer can just turn around and say "thanks for your feedback, it was very interesting, but we're going to do it just as we proposed anyway" whether the union agrees to it or not.

And because there is no suggestion that pay is included in these talks then someone such as me, a Conductor on (comparatively) low wages but good old fashioned Ts & Cs, could see all my Ts & Cs ripped to shreds and thrown away and not get a single penny extra in wages.

Obviously these consultations will discuss the details at each TOC and how each grade will be affected based on their own local Ts & Cs, but in the end it just a consultation where the company decides what is happening and there is nothing you can do about it.

 

[Bertie the bus]

At least with Aslef they're actually negotiating. Are they negotiating with RMT right now? When were they last?

Can they negotiate with the RMT? After 7 months of strikes and numerous rounds of negotiations the RMT said they won't accept any changes to working practices and want an unconditional pay rise. It looks as though throughout the RMT have been negotiating in bad faith and aren't prepared to budge 1 inch from their starting position. What would be the point of further negotiations?

 

[jettofab]

I'm not seeking to open any debate but asking about the consultation process (any consultation process anywhere): is there a point/threshold above which a business could not force changes? So could a law firm give their staff sufficient notice and then force them to work shifts, or permanent nights, or weekends? Presumably at some point it becomes a redundancy situation?

Edited to add the example I've chosen may, on reflection, be a little close to the subject. I want to be crystal clear I am asking about the process as it would be applied across any industry.