BSK Carriages

[Taunton]

Out of curiosity, I had a look for 'mixed trains' and found this site which has pictures of the far north of Scotland line.

The 'mixed trains' appear to include parcels vans (which could generally run with passenger carriages) rather than what I'd regards as 'goods wagons'.

Although this one from 1975 has a small 4 wheel van at the rear which may be borderline,

The rear van here would have vacuum brakes (as most later vans did) as it is painted brown - officially "bauxite" I believe. Freight vehicles were painted grey if unfitted and brown if vacuum braked - a handy way to tell them in the yard. Classification of trains in former times, 0 to 9, used about half of the numbers available for various proportions of a freight train having vacuum brakes, sometimes for faster freight services where there were insufficient "fitted" vehicles in the load, extra empty fitted vehicles would need to be added behind the locomotive just to provide the stipulated braked proportion - a "fitted head".

Vacuum brakes do indeed automatically apply if the train divides, but these "leak off" after a while. As described above there used to be a regulation that only two coaches could be behind the rear brake van, but if their coupling failed and they were on a gradient, particularly a rising one, with passengers inside, it was an obvious concern, and guards might resort to such measures as packing ballast under every wheel while awaiting recovery. In their van they could screw down the handbrake. I believe there were some steeply graded lines which banned "swingers" behind the brake.

 

[Gloster]

I remember that on the Portsmouth - Cardiff route when the 33s hauled most services the guards section was generally in the middle of the train which I presume was because there were short platforms being called at maybe?

The late 1970s/early 1980s Waterloo-Exeter trains were eight coaches and, if formed correctly, would have two BSK (later BFK) in the middle, so three non-brakes behind the brake. If they were full length but short of one brake coach it could be four.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

NSE era mk 2 formations were usually 3X TSO-BFK-TSO-BFK-3X TSO, again with the brake vans in the centre taking into account the short platforms on the mule

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Although this one from 1975 has a small 4 wheel van at the rear

Slightly OT, but as late as 1981 a run to Thurso with 26030 included 2 TSO + 1 BG + 1 four wheel Van, the latter (used for fish I believe?) was shunted off by the 26 and left in the yard.

 

[Andy873]

Yes that’s what I was thinking and further to what @Roger1973 said above, @Andy873 - when you said this:


I’d expect that one of those three coaches would have a guards section which might be half of one of the coaches or possibly only short section like on this mk1 BCK:
View attachment 131117

Unfortunately most of the photos I know of only show the passenger trains from either the front or back of the trains. The few that show more of the carriages don't seem to show a brake van - but it's highly likely I'm wrong.

In a previous topic I was told the most common coaches were of the ex-LMS non-corridor type. The regular services stopped in 1957 and excursions in 1964.

Thanks all for the replies of which I'm still reading through.

Can anyone spot a brake van on any of these photos?

Last Days of the North East Lancs Loop line - SteamingNorth.com ... (Click on a picture to open that album and then on a picture to enlarge it...........Pictures copyright of Author

www.steamingnorth.com

Thanks.

 

[Taunton]

Getting back to the possibility of the coaches behind the brake van position breaking a coupling, I seem to recall that on Exeter St Davids up to Central in steam days that if the guard was not in the last vehicle it had to be banked (which most were anyway) up the steep gradient.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

NSE era mk 2 formations were usually 3X TSO-BFK-TSO-BFK-3X TSO, again with the brake vans in the centre taking into account the short platforms on the mule

3TSO-BFK-TSOT-BFK-3TSO was the standard West of England formation for NSE. Originally the TSOT was outside the BFKs with them back to back in the middle but this was changed around 1990. Later most of the sets were shortened to 8 coaches most loosing the TSOT but some retained it more as a normal coach and from memory I think the BFKs ended up back to back again.

The Salisbury short sets where load 6 and generally had a FK but only one brake vehicle, a BSO?

The Paddington NSE sets I’m not sure ever had consistent formations?

 

[Andy873]

Is this first carriage a brake / guards van?

Last Days of the North East Lancs Loop line - LMS Stanier Black 5 4-6-0 - 45205 - SteamingNorth.com ... (Click on a picture to open that album and then on a picture to enlarge it...........Pictures copyright of Author

www.steamingnorth.com

 

[Cowley]

Is this first carriage a brake / guards van?

Last Days of the North East Lancs Loop line - LMS Stanier Black 5 4-6-0 - 45205 - SteamingNorth.com ... (Click on a picture to open that album and then on a picture to enlarge it...........Pictures copyright of Author

www.steamingnorth.com

Yes it is, the guards section being right behind the loco. The boxed part which is proud of the body has small forward and rear facing windows.

 

[Andy873]

Yes it is, the guards section being right behind the loco. The boxed part which is proud of the body has small forward and rear facing windows.

Thanks @Cowley I see them now, it's such a subtle difference to an ordinary coach.
Thanks too for telling me what the box part was, you were ahead of me there!

 

[Cowley]

Thanks @Cowley I see them now, it's such a subtle difference to an ordinary coach.
Thanks too for telling me what the box part was, you were ahead of me there!

It’s an interesting subject isn’t it?
Re the box thing - I remember being on one coach that had a periscope type arrangement but I’m not sure what it was? It might have been a Bulleid coach at the Mid Hants though.

 

[Taunton]

Thanks @Cowley I see them now, it's such a subtle difference to an ordinary coach.
Thanks too for telling me what the box part was, you were ahead of me there!

Known as lookout duckets, with a very narrow vertical window, all within the loading gauge, pre-nationalisation companies either used these or a periscope, to allow the guard to check the line ahead, and behind. You can lean into them to see ahead while sat in the guard's seat.

 

[Andy873]

It’s an interesting subject isn’t it?
Re the box thing - I remember being on one coach that had a periscope type arrangement but I’m not sure what it was? It might have been a Bulleid coach at the Mid Hants though.

It certainly is an interesting subject.

Known as lookout duckets, with a very narrow vertical window, all within the loading gauge, pre-nationalisation companies either used these or a periscope, to allow the guard to check the line ahead, and behind. You can lean into them to see ahead while sat in the guard's seat.

I presume all of this was for safety? that is, you didn't need to risk sticking your head out of the window?

 

[Rescars]

It’s an interesting subject isn’t it?
Re the box thing - I remember being on one coach that had a periscope type arrangement but I’m not sure what it was? It might have been a Bulleid coach at the Mid Hants though.

The periscope arrangement was presumably a replacement for the duckets which has been a feature of earlier guard's compartments. Goodness knows how the glass was kept clean given that it would have been in direct "line of fire" of the locos exhaust.

Comment has been made above about the Southern's practice of positioning a brake compartment at the end of each set. This would have made the location of parcel space predictable for station staff. IIRC the desire for predictability was the reason for painting an inverted black triangle on the van end of Southern Region DEMUs.

 

[Tester]

It’s an interesting subject isn’t it?
Re the box thing - I remember being on one coach that had a periscope type arrangement but I’m not sure what it was? It might have been a Bulleid coach at the Mid Hants though.

The Southern were big users of periscopes, later than you might expect.

Among others, the 4-BEP/CEPs had them pre-refurbishment. It used to be fun to sit in an empty guard's compartment (totally open then) and look forward!

They had a manual 'window wiper', but in latter days were not maintained and became unusable.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Just to point out that a fitted freight vehicle, painted bauxite, was one fitted with vac, pipes. That didn't mean it was vacuum braked; quite a lot of wagons were through piped with no vac. brake (called 'blow-throughs' by staff), and this was indicated by the colour of a ring at the base of the vac. pipe stand - white for piped, red for braked (I hope I've got that the right way round.)

The reason was that it was obviously cheaper to fit just through pipes than brakes, and, in the days when freight train classification was based on the proportion of braked vehicles - it could be rather less than 100% - it made forming up a train easier, piped wagons could be in the fitted head, though of course not included in the brake calculations.

 

[30907]

As others have explained the brake van in this context means a passenger-rated vehicle with accommodation for the guard.

Regarding the Bluebell Railway piece which says there would be a brake van at each end this reflected Southern practice. Unlike the other regions the Southern ran their carriages in fixed sets in the same way they ran their EMUs.

But it was still generally possible to have a "loose" coach outside the rear brake

The largest number of non-brake vehicles I can find "outside" a brake vehicle was on the 1350 Manchester - St Pancras. This started out as 6 coach train with a BSK at each end, but at Derby four coaches (none of them a Brake) were placed on the rear.

I must say I didn't realise 4 was allowed before the 1960s relaxation (which covers most of the examples in later posts).

 

[Andy873]

Just to point out that a fitted freight vehicle, painted bauxite, was one fitted with vac, pipes. That didn't mean it was vacuum braked

It might surprise a few people but although I love the railways, I've never worked on them and always thought those connecting hoses were simply for heating carriages.

I know better now!

Even more than that, I've learnt that there was a balance between an engines power capacity, the weight of the stock it was pulling and the whole train's braking capacity.

On all the BR WTT's I have it clearly says on the front cover:

"When a passenger train is running late, drivers (and motormen) must endeavour to make up time, with due regards to speed restrictions and the braking power of the engine and train".

 

[edwin_m]

I believe there were some steeply graded lines which banned "swingers" behind the brake.

Just to point out that this term means different things to different people ... even when sticking strictly to the field of railways ...

In the post above it refers to vehicles with no guard's position or handbrake, but it can also be used for the situation where the end vehicle is totally unbraked due to not being fitted with continuous brakes, or being fitted but for some reason not connected up and in use. These are obviously an immediate danger if the coupling breaks, due to the risk of re-collision with the separating portion or rolling off to cause trouble elsewhere.

 

[Rescars]

On a previous thread, someone noted the WR's preference for dividing trains and leaving part of the set behind (including the buffet car at an intermediate point - Worcester Shrub Hill with the remainder of the train going forward to Hereford as an example. Does anyone know what the implications were in regard to guards vans on these workings? Were there separate guards van in each section? Did the coupling and uncoupling of the sections have implications for where the guards vans were marshalled to enable running in either direction? IIRC part of the train was simply uncoupled on the down trips and added to the rear on the up workings. Surely these sets did not have to be turned or remarshalled at the end of each trip.

 

[Friary Yard]

On a previous thread, someone noted the WR's preference for dividing trains and leaving part of the set behind (including the buffet car at an intermediate point - Worcester Shrub Hill with the remainder of the train going forward to Hereford as an example. Does anyone know what the implications were in regard to guards vans on these workings? Were there separate guards van in each section? Did the coupling and uncoupling of the sections have implications for where the guards vans were marshalled to enable running in either direction? IIRC part of the train was simply uncoupled on the down trips and added to the rear on the up workings. Surely these sets did not have to be turned or remarshalled at the end of each trip.

I worked at Plymouth in the late 1970's. Trains were regularly divided with the Plymouth Portion being detached from the rear of a "Down" Cornwall bound train and then attached to the front of an "up " train.
The Plymouth Portion would typically consist of an RB+FO+TSO. The Penzance Portion, usually 5 vehicles, would have a BG at the extreme Cornish end.
A typical scenario would be the arrival of a Paddington to Penzance train at Platform 4. The 08 Station Pilot would then drop in behind the train and the rear 3 coaches would be detached and shunted across to platform 8. locomotive would arrive from Laira Depot and be attached to the coaches. This would be the train engine for the onward journey.
A 5 coach Penzance to Paddington train would then arrive at Platform 7 and the engine would be cut off and run light to Laira Depot. The fresh engine would then draw the 3 coaches out from platform 8 and set back onto the train in platform 7 ready to set off as a 8 coach train to London.
Passengers were permitted to join the coaches when at platform 8 and remain on board during the attachment. No brakevan and no Guard. The movement was under the control of the Station Shunter and signalled by Main Aspects which meant that all points were locked for facing movements.
Dining Car portions could be worked to and from Laira without a brake van.

 

[30907]

On a previous thread, someone noted the WR's preference for dividing trains and leaving part of the set behind (including the buffet car at an intermediate point - Worcester Shrub Hill with the remainder of the train going forward to Hereford as an example. Does anyone know what the implications were in regard to guards vans on these workings? Were there separate guards van in each section? Did the coupling and uncoupling of the sections have implications for where the guards vans were marshalled to enable running in either direction? IIRC part of the train was simply uncoupled on the down trips and added to the rear on the up workings. Surely these sets did not have to be turned or remarshalled at the end of each trip.

From my one early 70s experience, the Worcester portion was attached front at Shrub Hill (as with the Plymouth example, which also fits my experience).
This simplified the working at Paddington.
Go back 10 years, and it would have been much more common for stock to have been remarshalled during a layover of a few hours at Old Oak Common (I presume - it was certainly the case at Clapham Yard on the SWD).
Workings at Exeter C involved shunting the RCs (maybe plus a BCK) into/from the middle of London trains, but I am too young to have experienced this

 

[Gloster]

Workings at Exeter C involved shunting the RCs (maybe plus a BCK) into/from the middle of London trains, but I am too young to have experienced this

At Exeter Central there were scissor crossovers half way up the Up platform which made combining the portions much easier: there was no equivalent on the Down. Some trains lost their North Cornwall portions at Okehampton: from a story I read (*) the train was split just behind the dining saloon.

* - The story went roughly that they split a train at Okehampton and the front portion departed, only for a waiter to be seen in the gangway as they had split between the kitchen and saloon. Someone in Exeter had telegraphed the wrong number of vehicles in each portion, and at Okehampton they had just counted the number and uncoupled without checking the type. (That was roughly the story: I may have got the kitchen car and dining saloon the wrong way round.)

 

[Rescars]

Many thanks for these responses. I am going back to the late 60s / early 70s and my memory is probably playing tricks! Adding the additional stock to the front of the up workings would make much better sense. IIRC there was a scissors crossovers half-way along the platform which would have facilitated the release of the loco which bought in the Hereford portion. Very interesting to hear about all the movements at Plymouth which were worked without brakevans.

Great story about the unfortunate split at Okehampton!

 

[30907]

At Exeter Central there were scissor crossovers half way up the Up platform which made combining the portions much easier: there was no equivalent on the Down.

...which made the operation more challenging I imagine.

Some trains lost their North Cornwall portions at Okehampton: from a story I read (*) the train was split just behind the dining saloon.

* - The story went roughly that they split a train at Okehampton and the front portion departed, only for a waiter to be seen in the gangway as they had split between the kitchen and saloon. Someone in Exeter had telegraphed the wrong number of vehicles in each portion, and at Okehampton they had just counted the number and uncoupled without checking the type. (That was roughly the story: I may have got the kitchen car and dining saloon the wrong way round.)

Good one! ISTR the split only happened on summer Saturdays.

 

[Gloster]

...which made the operation more challenging I imagine.

Good one! ISTR the split only happened on summer Saturdays.

Looking at some 1950s Carriage Working Diagrams it seems that on the Down the Plymouth portion was normally at the front on arrival at Exeter Central; I am not sure if the Merchant Navy ran through to Plymouth (although I don’t think so). On departure of Up trains the Plymouth portion was at one end or the other. In both cases the kitchen was in the middle.

In the mid-1970s there weren’t many through trains to Hereford and one was the nine-coach whole set. The others split at Worcester, with three or four coaches going on to Hereford and four (including the buffet) staying in Worcester: the only brake vehicle was in the Hereford portion.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Merchant Navies did not venture west of Exeter Central due to weight restrictions; the rebuilt Light Pacifics only did on the Plymouth route once Meldon Viaduct had been strengthened in 1961.

Normally catering vehicles did not venture west of Exeter Central, except for the Plymouth - Brighton service. On Summer Saturdays, however, when the ACE and others ran as multiple trains rather than portion working, some Ilfracombe services had them throughout. One down and one up Padstow also had a restuarant car to and from Okehampton - there being about an hour layover to swop over.

 

[Taunton]

I worked at Plymouth in the late 1970's. Trains were regularly divided with the Plymouth Portion being detached from the rear of a "Down" Cornwall bound train and then attached to the front of an "up " train.

This was indeed common at the various WR dividing points, for the detachable portion to be at the London end. Among other things it favoured boarding at Paddington, where passengers commonly would get in to the first seat they saw - if the longer distance portion was at the barrier end it could get crowded out by those travelling shorter distances, while up at the front the detaching portion would be lightly loaded. The one line this didn't work on was West Wales, where the terminus at Swansea meant the onward portion for Milford Haven etc just had to be on the back.

Besides adding vehicles at Worcester, Cotswold line trains could also have them added at Oxford, and often these might be a through service from Wolverhampton which came in a few minutes before. This progressive increase in load suited the demand to London.

The approach where the Up portion was attached by a fresh main line loco suited smaller locos handling the extremities, and was why Kings did not get beyond Plymouth, Wolverhampton, etc. The day Plymouth to Liverpool had a Paignton (in fact probably Kingswear) portion, and this was why, again attached on the front, it was actually a Newton Abbot lodging turn, in steam days with a well-polished Castle, all the way to Shrewsbury, longest turn on the WR. Similar happened to some London trains.

The "swinger" expression was one I recall to one or two extra spare vehicles added to West of England expresses in the summer in the 1960s, beyond the booked formation and its van, and sometimes at places like Exeter if the incoming train was full by Newton Abbot - I presume waiting passengers were advised appropriately. On a Mk1 set these would commonly be a late-1940s build Hawksworth SK, looking slightly lost there.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Known as lookout duckets, with a very narrow vertical window, all within the loading gauge

Duckets survived longest on goods brake vans, long after passenger carrying vehicles so fitted were withdrawn. Ex SR pillbox, ex SR Queen Mary's, ex LM 20T, BR standard 20T etc. The duckets fitted to the SR pattern vans were never directly opposite each other (each side), but were staggered, set to the right of centre when looking at a side on view. This may have been due to the stoves(?), which certainly in a Queen Mary I rode on, were positioned in the dead centre of the floor. There were small bench seats positioned by the duckets so the guard could sit, whilst skewing their neck sideways to look out through the ducket window.

Goodness knows how the glass was kept clean

It wasn't as the years went by. Tried cleaning one myself (image attached) before setting out, but the brake dust was so grimed on, had to forget any ideas I had of taking a picture through the window!

In addition to Duckets and periscopes, there were also the Birdcage Brakes (SECR and LBSCR generally), where the guard had to perch on a seat high up just under the ceiling in the van. See my image of S3363 taken on the Bluebell. That vehicle is a fantastic example of the Birdcage type and a real credit to the Bluebell's C&W team.

 

[Rescars]

Duckets survived longest on goods brake vans, long after passenger carrying vehicles so fitted were withdrawn. Ex SR pillbox, ex SR Queen Mary's, ex LM 20T, BR standard 20T etc. The duckets fitted to the SR pattern vans were never directly opposite each other (each side), but were staggered, set to the right when looking at a side on view. This may have been due to the stoves(?), which certainly in a Queen Mary I rode on, were positioned in the dead centre of the floor. There were small bench seats positioned by the duckets so the guard could sit, whilst skewing their neck sideways to look out through the ducket window.

It wasn't as the years went by. Tried cleaning one myself (image attached) before setting out, but the brake dust was so grimed on, had to forget any ideas I had of taking a picture through the window!

In addition to Duckets and periscopes, there were also the Birdcage Brakes (SECR and LBSCR generally), where the guard had to perch on a seat high up just under the ceiling in the van. See my image of S3363 taken on the Bluebell. That vehicle is a fantastic example of the Birdcage type and a real credit to the Bluebell's C&W team.

Great pictures!

The width of ducket windows was largely dictated by the loading gauge. IIRC, pre-grouping, the LBSC had a more generous loading gauge than its neighbours and its guards' duckets were more generous and protruded further in consequence.