London Thameslink to Brighton

[Josie]

I'm struggling a little bit with the London Thameslink destination - I've never bought a fare using it before.

My proposed tickets using this site's booking engine are as shown:

[Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston, Advance Single, Avanti West Coast only, restriction VR
London Thameslink to Brighton, Super Off-Peak Single, not valid on London Underground, restriction FB]

And the itinerary it offers is this:

[Manchester Piccadilly - London Euston - Willesden Junction - Clapham Junction - Brighton]

Instead of shuffling down the West London Line, can I make my own way from Euston to St Pancras and board a direct Brighton train, using the same tickets?

 

[Joe Paxton]

I'm struggling a little bit with the London Thameslink destination - I've never bought a fare using it before.

My proposed tickets using this site's booking engine are as shown:
View attachment 131757
[Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston, Advance Single, Avanti West Coast only, restriction VR
London Thameslink to Brighton, Super Off-Peak Single, not valid on London Underground, restriction FB]

And the itinerary it offers is this:
View attachment 131758
[Manchester Piccadilly - London Euston - Willesden Junction - Clapham Junction - Brighton]

Instead of shuffling down the West London Line, can I make my own way from Euston to St Pancras and board a direct Brighton train, using the same tickets?

Unequivocally yes, you can.

In fact I can't quite see how a ticket with an origin of London Thameslink would actually be valid from Euston and then via the West London Line as the generated itinerary suggests.
(That's leaving aside the rule that a ticket sold by an accreddited retailer inherently makes it valid as per the accompanying itinerary... though I can imagine seeking to exercise that right might not exactly be a frictionless experience!)

The rules for London Thameslink tickets are set out in this table on the National Rail website.

 

[MikeWh]

As far as I know, Euston is only a valid terminal for London Thameslink if the other end is Bedford.

 

[Watershed]

As far as I know, Euston is only a valid terminal for London Thameslink if the other end is Bedford.

The industry data is not that granular; London Euston is simply a member of the London Thameslink station group.

 

[fandroid]

The industry data is not that granular; London Euston is simply a member of the London Thameslink station group.

So the National Rail website table can be ignored?

 

[spag23]

Instead of shuffling down the West London Line, can I make my own way from Euston to St Pancras

It's only a short, level, walk along Euston Road. I reckon this is far quicker than using the Tube, with all its ups and downs. Especially to the STP Thameslink platforms, which alone are a good 7-8 minutes walk from this station's tube platforms.
Plus walking is (currently) free!

 

[Josie]

It's only a short, level, walk along Euston Road. I reckon this is far quicker than using the Tube, with all its ups and downs. Especially to the STP Thameslink platforms, which alone are a good 7-8 minutes walk from this station's tube platforms.
Plus walking is (currently) free!

This is why I want to do it! The walk along Euston Road is clearly more sensible than a tour of west London; I was checking the validity of my ticket to start from St Pancras, since I'm not familiar with London Thameslink tickets. Thanks to @Joe Paxton for the advice.

 

[spag23]

For any out of London readers, I meant just to get from Euston to St Pancras, road walking beats the Tube (unless there's a monsoon!).
Incidentally, use the STP Thameslink entrance up Midland Road. Going through the main entrance will take longer, and involve unnecessary ups and downs.
Agreed about the ludicrous tour of West London. I defer to Joe Paxton on validity issues.

 

[Haywain]

The walk along Euston Road is clearly more sensible than a tour of west London

There are a couple of better options than Euston Road. Going along Eversholt Street and turning right into Phoenix Road, and you then see St Pancras straight ahead of you. There is also a shorter route through Doric Way, Church Way, down the side of the Somers Town Coffee House and then along Dangoor Walk (at the side of the Crick institute) - not quite a straight line but not far off and very quick.

 

[SargeNpton]

Under what conditions Euston is a member of London Thameslink is irrelevant. The journey planner is offering split tickets Manchester-Euston and then London Thameslink-Brighton (where the London Thameslink origin is effectively St Pancras).

It's then failing on the fixed-link from Euston to St Pancras - which has "Tube" as the mode. As the tickets offered by the journey planner do not include the Underground fare it is offering that roundabout route via Willesden Junction instead - which is not valid for a London Thameslink-Brighton journey.

Whether the Euston-St Pancras fixed-link should be Tube or Walk is a moot point.

 

[Watershed]

So the National Rail website table can be ignored?

I'm just explaining why booking sites can offer itineraries from London Euston even on journeys that aren't to or from Bedford. You're contractually entitled to rely on any such itinerary offered in conjunction with a ticket purchase, but as others have said, you may encounter a degree of hassle.

(where the London Thameslink origin is effectively St Pancras)

That may be how it's intended to be used, but the industry data provides no such clue to journey planners.

It's then failing on the fixed-link from Euston to St Pancras - which has "Tube" as the mode

It's not "failing" at all; the data tells it that Euston is one of the members of the London Thameslink group. And the shortest route from Euston to Brighton, on a ticket that doesn't permit the use of the Underground, is indeed via Willesden Junction.

As the tickets offered by the journey planner do not include the Underground fare it is offering that roundabout route via Willesden Junction instead - which is not valid for a London Thameslink-Brighton journey.

It's certainly valid in conjunction with the itinerary, and if it weren't for the publicly noted limitation of Euston only being a part of the London Thameslink group for tickets from Bedford, then it would also be a permitted route even if you determined it under your "own steam".

 

[spag23]

Some of these itineraries are ludicrous. A few years back I got one that included a circular, four station, 30 minute, Tube journey to get from St Pancras Thameslink to Kings Cross NR.

 

[Josie]

Some of these itineraries are ludicrous. A few years back I got one that included a circular, four station, 30 minute, Tube journey to get from St Pancras Thameslink to Kings Cross NR.

I was expecting something a bit wonky after asking for split tickets, and I would have been happy to go with it if a split ticket 1.) required a long way round and 2.) was much cheaper than the direct route. I'm glad I checked on this occasion!

 

[yorkie]

Unequivocally yes, you can.

Yes, agreed.

Unfortunately booking sites are not allowed to offer this very straightforward walk (despite it being signed and easy) at times when the tube is running. This is because the fixed link data only allows the walk out of tube operating times. It would be very easy for RDG to fix this.

In fact I can't quite see how a ticket with an origin of London Thameslink would actually be valid from Euston and then via the West London Line as the generated itinerary suggests.
(That's leaving aside the rule that a ticket sold by an accreddited retailer inherently makes it valid as per the accompanying itinerary... though I can imagine seeking to exercise that right might not exactly be a frictionless experience!)

The rules for London Thameslink tickets are set out in this table on the National Rail website.

Unfortunately it's not that simple; London Thameslink is a valid station for tickets from Brighton to London but the data isn't as granulated as that. To "fix" this would require some sort of manual hack.

Some of these itineraries are ludicrous.

It's only because it's trying to find cheap itineraries i.e. avoid the use of the tube, and yet itineraries that involve the simple walk are not possible as the walking fixed link is not allowed to be used at those times.

I was expecting something a bit wonky after asking for split tickets, and I would have been happy to go with it if a split ticket 1.) required a long way round and 2.) was much cheaper than the direct route. I'm glad I checked on this occasion!

Its nothing to do with split tickets as such; the same issue would apply on just one ticket for a journey from Euston.

All you need to do is ignore the circuitious route and walk from Euston to St Pancras; the shortest route is only about 8 minutes and has very little traffic.

 

[Haywain]

To "fix" this would require some sort of manual hack.

Like a negative easement?

 

[yorkie]

Like a negative easement?

Similar in concept; basically a rule that says only issue itineraries to London Thameslink with Euston as an origin/destination if the other origin/destination is Bedford.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

The industry data is not that granular; London Euston is simply a member of the London Thameslink station group.

Well, the data, as it is, is never enough to sell a valid ticket. Euston being valid only valid from Bedford needs to be handled specifically, as other journey planners do. Edit: as I see Yorkie said

 

[T-Karmel]

What is the reason for Euston to be in London Thameslink group? How the journey from Bedford to Euston will look like on a London Thameslink ticket - via West Hampstead and Willesden?

 

[CyrusWuff]

Unfortunately booking sites are not allowed to offer this very straightforward walk (despite it being signed and easy) at times when the tube is running. This is because the fixed link data only allows the walk out of tube operating times. It would be very easy for RDG to fix this.

One issue with RDG changing the data to allow a walk 24/7 is that it would break connections that are currently possible, as I doubt that you can have concurrent fixed links with different mode settings.

As such, the minimum total connection time would increase from 35 minutes (15 minute interchange time at each end plus 5 minutes on the tube between 0700 and 1900) to 45 minutes (as 15 minutes is allowed for the walk.)

 

[MikeWh]

What is the reason for Euston to be in London Thameslink group? How the journey from Bedford to Euston will look like on a London Thameslink ticket - via West Hampstead and Willesden?

Euston was a valid destination when London Terminals was used because of the line to Bletchley and then to Euston. When London Thameslink was introduced for stations between London and Bedford they had to allow the previous validity into Euston.

 

[miklcct]

Euston was a valid destination when London Terminals was used because of the line to Bletchley and then to Euston. When London Thameslink was introduced for stations between London and Bedford they had to allow the previous validity into Euston.

Why don't they exist at the same time like from the South?

 

[yorkie]

Why don't they exist at the same time like from the South?

There is no need to have a choice between London Terminals and London Thameslink from the north. If you have any proposal to the contrary, feel free to state your proposal in a new thread.