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More Delay for HS2, and how should we proceed?

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76020

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No. You couldn't. OOC will be about 9 minutes from Tottenham Court Road. Add 10 minutes for changing trains, and 42 minutes for the journey, and you are in Birmingham in just over an hour
Ok fair enough but that is if everything goes like clockwork, if you have baggage you could be waiting at Old Oak Common for lifts for much more than 10 mins, but this is all pie in the sky, until it is all up and running everybody is having to guess on how good the connection between trains will be at Old Oak.

That isn't the right assumption, as otherwise Coventry and Wolverhampton wouldn't retain a fast service to London. The working assumption was two 'Intercity' trains from Euston to New Street calling at Watford, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Coventry and International, one continuing to Scotland.
At the moment there is an half hourly Intercity service from London Euston to Birmingham New Street, so you are saying that HS2 will provide additional services from London (Euston or Old Oak) to Birmingham Curzon Street, so where is the freeing up of capacity on the WCML?, this is one of the main aims of the project.
 
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Bletchleyite

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That is likely, but is because money for infrastructure is usually spent on London and any peppercorn left is distributed to the regions. Look at the quality and money spent on London stations and compare it to Leeds or Bradford etc. Londoners moan about 3 minute headways and seemingly have an inability to wait longer or for the next train. Travel between Sheffield and Huddersfield on the direct route over penistone, it's hourly -These are reasonably sized places.

How to say "I have never travelled by rail in the South East" without saying you've never travelled by rail in the South East.

The deep Tube has 3 minute headways. If it didn't, the queues would be down the road - it's the only way to get enough capacity operating.

Most London commuter lines by contrast operate on roughly half hour frequencies, with busier stations like Bletchley likely to have a "2 fast 2 slow" type pattern. Yes, this is better than you often get up North but there are exceptions, and the North is much better connected - you cite the Penistone line, possibly comparable to the Oxford-Cambridge service pre-Milton Keynes, which of course was closed. Yes, that's what I said - if the Penistone Line was in the South East it in all likelihood would not exist, or if it did then it'd have an hourly service like the Marston Vale which is perhaps a comparable-ish rural survivor.

The South East's rail network basically provides for getting to London and very poorly for anything else, and the buses are worse (often nonexistent) too.

Other than the TfL area, it is NOT a land of milk and honey, and examples like East Croydon and Clapham Jn are like pointing at Castlefield and saying the North has a train every 5 minutes - they are a core where many disparate services converge.

The one thing the SE does seem to recognise is that 2200ish is too early for a last train home from big cities, and that 2330 or later is necessary to enable things like theatre and gig trips.
 

DC1989

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That is likely, but is because money for infrastructure is usually spent on London and any peppercorn left is distributed to the regions. Look at the quality and money spent on London stations and compare it to Leeds or Bradford etc. Londoners moan about 3 minute headways and seemingly have an inability to wait longer or for the next train. Travel between Sheffield and Huddersfield on the direct route over penistone, it's hourly -These are reasonably sized places.

So are there politicians in Hudderfield and Sheffield putting plans together to build metro type railways with turn up and go frequencies ? If they did would they be voted for? Instead many people in those areas (not on this thread) would rather celebrate Crossrail 2 getting mothballed and Euston not being built.
 

Meerkat

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Travel between Sheffield and Huddersfield on the direct route over penistone, it's hourly -These are reasonably sized places.
Huddersfield has a population less than each of London's 32 Boroughs, less than half that of 14 of them.
Greater London's population is 16 times that of Sheffield, before you get onto including the commuter zone that also uses London's public transport.
 

The Planner

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Ok fair enough but that is if everything goes like clockwork, if you have baggage you could be waiting at Old Oak Common for lifts for much more than 10 mins, but this is all pie in the sky, until it is all up and running everybody is having to guess on how good the connection between trains will be at Old Oak.


At the moment there is an half hourly Intercity service from London Euston to Birmingham New Street, so you are saying that HS2 will provide additional services from London (Euston or Old Oak) to Birmingham Curzon Street, so where is the freeing up of capacity on the WCML?, this is one of the main aims of the project.
There should be three, as per Manchester as well. One of those two Birminghams is a fast so eats capacity. Don't look at it 100% as to what happens now. I would also ignore what is out there in terms of what a post HS2 service spec is, its changed multiple times since and will change again.
 

MattRat

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So are there politicians in Hudderfield and Sheffield putting plans together to build metro type railways with turn up and go frequencies ? If they did would they be voted for? Instead many people in those areas (not on this thread) would rather celebrate Crossrail 2 getting mothballed and Euston not being built.
I don't think anyone is saying things shouldn't be built. But, London has spent £5 billion pound (correct me if I'm wrong) on essentially nothing. The North wishes it could see that kind of money.

How about, instead of basically burning money, we start allowing some of that money to go up North. Even a 'measly' £5 billion would go far up North.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Euston is largely "for" the north west (and west mids, north Wales and Glasgow) .
The Eastern leg would have added east mids, Yorkshire, NE and Edinburgh.
It's not just, or even mainly, for London.

You have a better case with Crossrail spend, but HS2 was supposed to be the balancing "northern" project.
 

12LDA28C

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Euston is largely "for" the north west (and west mids, north Wales and Glasgow) .
The Eastern leg would have added east mids, Yorkshire, NE and Edinburgh.
It's not just, or even mainly, for London.

You have a better case with Crossrail spend, but HS2 was supposed to be the balancing "northern" project.

I was under the impression that HS2 was all about increasing capacity, specifically relieving congestion at the southern end of the WCML which is the busiest mixed-traffic railway in Europe. Not so much about reducing journey times from the North West and Scotland which is merely an added benefit, not the raison d'etre.
 

GRALISTAIR

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Post covid it was clearly not as urgent to push the go button but it was a BoJo vanity project and is too far committed ---

Amazing that a "Bojo vanity project" was mooted under Labour, started serious planning in 2009, go-ahead announced in 2012, and the hybrid bill received assent in 2017 - a full 2 years before he became PM. The guy must have been secretly laying the groundwork for his vanity project for a full decade.
Exactly. It is completely unfair to blame BoJo.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Exactly. It is completely unfair to blame BoJo.
Johnson made the case at cabinet and announced it to the Houses of Parliament for political capital. I still standby the fact its his vanity project as he wouldn't have got anywhere near the political capital out of a rolling electrification programme which would have served a much wider level of the country for far less expenditure and at least the network would be on the path to decarbonisation. Now we risk HS2 expenditure further delaying that goal but as i say its too far gone now to abort so phase 1 including Euston should be built as fast as possible so it earns revenue.
 

Xavi

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If HS2 was allowed to appoint an engineering consultancy to design a minimum specification station with 11 platforms it would be sub-£2bn. However, under planning law, stakeholders from Camden to DfT have their say and want signature architects and above-site development etc. That (as well as inflation) is where the £s go.
 

tomuk

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If HS2 was allowed to appoint an engineering consultancy to design a minimum specification station with 11 platforms it would be sub-£2bn. However, under planning law, stakeholders from Camden to DfT have their say and want signature architects and above-site development etc. That (as well as inflation) is where the £s go.
Reading the NAO report the Treasury dismissed plans for enhanced over site development which DfT believed would pay for itself and pay for the station as the Treasury didn't think it could be sold. Property development in London of all places not profitable.:s
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Reading the NAO report the Treasury dismissed plans for enhanced over site development which DfT believed would pay for itself and pay for the station as the Treasury didn't think it could be sold. Property development in London of all places not profitable.:s
Indeed complete nonsense. British Land have spent well over 1.5B developing Regents Place on the Euston Rd opposite Warren St over last 10 years transforming the area for office lettings. Likewise the railway lands to the north of KX and St.Pancras have also been developed and have successfully attracted tenants.
 

SynthD

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There’s also a conflict between HS2 and the government about how the oversite development would be provided, with the government pushing for more buildings to help recover more of the cost, but at the same time, the Treasury wasn’t approving the funding needed for the additional structural support needed in the station to hold them up.
Ianvisit's (and my) interpretation is that Treasury wants something but forgets it's the purse. Treasury thinking offices can't sell, DfT shrinking a station by spending more, people thinking Johnson had no influence before becoming PM, I'm surprised at the blind spots.
 

Xavi

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Reading the NAO report the Treasury dismissed plans for enhanced over site development which DfT believed would pay for itself and pay for the station as the Treasury didn't think it could be sold. Property development in London of all places not profitable.:s
An ‘enhanced’ over site development would, of course, added further cost which, I agree, may well have been self-funding had Treasury allowed.

The mistake (at the insistence of stakeholders) was the designing of the station below ground and (over site) providing a huge passenger concourse above all platforms with north and south entrances. A new Reading type station at ground level would probably have cost less than £2bn (Reading was £0.9 bn).
 

JamesT

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An ‘enhanced’ over site development would, of course, added further cost which, I agree, may well have been self-funding had Treasury allowed.

The mistake (at the insistence of stakeholders) was the designing of the station below ground and (over site) providing a huge passenger concourse above all platforms with north and south entrances. A new Reading type station at ground level would probably have cost less than £2bn (Reading was £0.9 bn).
How would an above-ground station work with HS2 coming in a tunnel from OOC? Would you have to bulldoze more of Camden to get the line in? Would buying up the properties required wipe out your savings from a cheaper station?
 

cuemaster

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No. You couldn't. OOC will be about 9 minutes from Tottenham Court Road. Add 10 minutes for changing trains, and 42 minutes for the journey, and you are in Birmingham in just over an hour
Ok if its only about 9/10 minutes to central london on the Elizabeth line from Old Oak Common, arriving at about the same time as the HS2 train into Euston - seems a reasonable temporary solution until Euston is completed in full.

BBC thinks we'll need to be using the Elizabeth Line for 30 minutes!! Where do they think OOC is - near Reading??

 

matacaster

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So are there politicians in Hudderfield and Sheffield putting plans together to build metro type railways with turn up and go frequencies ? If they did would they be voted for? Instead many people in those areas (not on this thread) would rather celebrate Crossrail 2 getting mothballed and Euston not being built.
Politicians of all parties put in a bid for tram train trial (rejected some time ago, probably correctly in fairness) and very recently a couple of extra loops or lengthening thereof (it's single track). The latter was pretty cheap as railway upgrades go and would have allowed a half hourly service. This also failed to get funding.
 

DC1989

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Politicians of all parties put in a bid for tram train trial (rejected some time ago, probably correctly in fairness) and very recently a couple of extra loops or lengthening thereof (it's single track). The latter was pretty cheap as railway upgrades go and would have allowed a half hourly service. This also failed to get funding.

It's a shame - I think you just have the look at the success of the Edinburgh trams to see what a tram service can do to a small-mid sized city
 

zwk500

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It's a shame - I think you just have the look at the success of the Edinburgh trams to see what a tram service can do to a small-mid sized city
AIUI the exact nature of what trams have done to Edinburgh (and whether this is desirable or not) is a subject of considerable debate at the moment. Not least because they're very young by transport system terms.
 

DC1989

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AIUI the exact nature of what trams have done to Edinburgh (and whether this is desirable or not) is a subject of considerable debate at the moment. Not least because they're very young by transport system terms.

Interesting, a few people I know that are from there and now live in London rave about them after they go back and visit (I wish they had this when I was younger etc)
 

zwk500

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Interesting, a few people I know that are from there and now live in London rave about them after they go back and visit (I wish they had this when I was younger etc)
Cyclists have drawn attention to the design of tram-cycle infrastructure interface which sometimes leaves a lot to be desired, also the management of the project was hardly a roaring success story and the financial toll on the City council (or whoever ended up paying for it) is still to be determined. I'm less bothered about motorist's complaints about disruption during construction, but certainly the way it was chopped and changed and redone to the nth degree didn't help the city.
Maybe this 2nd phase has learnt the lessons so that there's not a hidden cost for it all. I hope so. I'm sure that the service itself now that it's running will be of benefit to the people who use it.
 

DC1989

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Cyclists have drawn attention to the design of tram-cycle infrastructure interface which sometimes leaves a lot to be desired, also the management of the project was hardly a roaring success story and the financial toll on the City council (or whoever ended up paying for it) is still to be determined. I'm less bothered about motorist's complaints about disruption during construction, but certainly the way it was chopped and changed and redone to the nth degree didn't help the city.
Maybe this 2nd phase has learnt the lessons so that there's not a hidden cost for it all. I hope so. I'm sure that the service itself now that it's running will be of benefit to the people who use it.
In many projects, when all is said and done and the thing that was being built is finished and starts getting used, after a little while people tend to forget about it all and think what was all the fuss about. I imagine this will happen with HS2 if they just get the damn thing built!

NIMBYism is really destroying this country imo.
 

zwk500

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In many projects, when all is said and done and the thing that was being built is finished and starts getting used, after a little while people tend to forget about it all and think what was all the fuss about. I imagine this will happen with HS2 if they just get the damn thing built!

NIMBYism is really destroying this country imo.
Couldn't agree with you more.

Although the first phase of Edinburgh Trams construction was very badly managed both in terms of preparing the case and actually laying the tracks. There are substantial costs that will stay on the public books for a very long time. As with HS2, just because people forget about the problems doesn't mean they don't continue to cause issues down the line. However the lesson from both projects is to stop Politicians from getting involved in micro-managing projects and not to change their minds! Changing Euston from a 11 to 10 platform station is now estimated to cost more than if they'd left the damn thing alone.
 

snowball

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And the inquiry into what went wrong with the trams project, set up by the last First Minister but one, has yet to publish its report, after 8.75 years and counting.
 

HSTEd

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Changing Euston from a 11 to 10 platform station is now estimated to cost more than if they'd left the damn thing alone.
Only because the price of the 11 platform option is frozen in time now, when in reality it would have continued to escalate out of control, just as the 10 platform station option has.

The reality is the concept for Euston is simply undeliverable on the space available - and tearing down even more of Camden to make room is also unworkable for political reasons.

EDIT:
And that old plan to hack Euston suburbans onto Crossrail to make room at the station is unworkable now with the construction already complete at OOC.

They've really made themselves a gordian knot.
 
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stuu

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The reality is the concept for Euston is simply undeliverable on the space available - and tearing down even more of Camden to make room is also unworkable for political reasons.
What are you basing that on?
 

HSTEd

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What are you basing that on?
We've now had two attempts by learned groups of engineering consultants, and neither of them has delivered a workable design.

Is there any evidence that the third time around will be any better? At some point it becomes rather more likely that what they want simply isn't deliverable.
 

AndrewE

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We've now had two attempts by learned groups of engineering consultants, and neither of them has delivered a workable design.

Is there any evidence that the third time around will be any better? At some point it becomes rather more likely that what they want simply isn't deliverable.
Maybe it's time to ask some experienced railwaymen instead then?
 
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