Shortage of buses to replace trains

[infobleep]

SWR have had shortages this weekend too apparently, though luckily I've not needed the trains. And quite a lot of my stagecoach buses in the basingstoke area have been cancelled over the last few months it seems due to "driver shortage".

The buses were canceled ln the day without any reason added to their cancellation in the live departure boards on the Network Rail all.

I don't mind getting a tail replacement bus from its starting station or one that is manned but elsewhere it seems hit-and-miss.

For example tonight I arrived at bus stop C in Godalming, which isn't near the station and the 19:42 either bever showed up or left early.

Although Twitter staff got hold of the travel supplier they couldn't find out what had happened. When I actually got to Guildford station I asked some staff who were dealing with the replacement buses but they were only given a departure timetable and nothing about arrivals.

If the bus had been canceled, it certainly wasn't showing as such

 

[Edsmith]

I was shocked to see

Unbelievable.

Is rail a part of our capital city's public transport system or not? Does effective public transport matter to the functioning of our economy? (Especially for poorly-paid hospital and other public sector workers...)

Might it be part of the solution to reducing our carbon emissions?

I'm not saying rail maintenance shouldn't happen, just that the whole transport infrastructure needs restructuring. Maybe some sort of a "national bus company" which employs drivers (not gig economy exploitation) and can provide enough drivers and vehicles for another part of our transport network's needs as part of their own long-term "business plan."

Don't bother to reply, just email your MP if you answered "yes" to any of the above!

Well it's certainly not ideal but what else can they say in the circumstances?

Rail replacement provision has always been a 'gig economy' because it varies from week to week. There are a lot of part time/semi retired drivers who just do the job for a bit of beer money and many have left or found jobs elsewhere rather than faff around doing the CPC.

Roll on self driving buses!

 

[Goldfish62]

There is a particular shortage of part time drivers because the job is no longer worth doing if you've got to pay around £500 for the driver CPC and there are plenty of part time jobs available for home delivery drivers.

Not sure where you get £500 from. I've just done an online module virtually from the comfort of my armchair for £45. Five of them spread over five years is £225.

Furthermore, because I'm self-employed that's an expense to be set against tax.

 

[Bletchleyite]

CPC is available on line for £200 for 5 days training, however if you take into account days off work it works out at over 500, unless you do it on rest days.

If the position is that they will never be available then what?

Then the railway needs to become more proactive in providing alternatives by rail and by contracting acceptance by local bus, not just shrug its shoulders and go "not my fault guv".

 

[Goldfish62]

Then the railway needs to become more proactive in providing alternatives by rail and by contracting acceptance by local bus, not just shrug its shoulders and go "not my fault guv".

"National bus driver shortage innit. Not our problem. Use alternative transport."

 

[Edsmith]

Not sure where you get £500 from. I've just done an online module virtually from the comfort of my armchair for £45. Five of them spread over five years is £225.

Furthermore, because I'm self-employed that's an expense to be set against tax.

Prices have come down a bit but £300 plus is still quoted by many.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Apr 2023 ==

"National bus driver shortage innit. Not our problem. Use alternative transport."

Not much the railway industry can do about bus driver shortages.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Apr 2023 ==

Then the railway needs to become more proactive in providing alternatives by rail and by contracting acceptance by local bus, not just shrug its shoulders and go "not my fault guv".

Ticket acceptance on local buses may help in some cases but it often seems to be a case of make your own arrangements, get a receipt for any taxis etc and we'll reimburse you.

 

[philthetube]

Then the railway needs to become more proactive in providing alternatives by rail and by contracting acceptance by local bus, not just shrug its shoulders and go "not my fault guv".

agreed, however ' very few possessions could be covered by local bus services, at least outside the cities.

 

[Taunton]

so many have left the industry and there aren't many drivers coming through to replace them.

This is not actually true in London, where a substantial training programme has been obviously in hand over the last 12 months. We are particularly aware as one of their regular training "runs" is the main road near our house, where we pretty much see one or more in progress, with specially painted older buses, every morning.

Now I know some will respond about "London bus wages", but it really shows the applicants are there provided the pay at appropriate levels is. It is the same major bus groups running groups of services there as elsewhere in the country, so they should be able to readily learn from this.

 

[Edsmith]

This is not actually true in London, where a substantial training programme has been obviously in hand over the last 12 months. We are particularly aware as one of their regular training "runs" is the main road near our house, where we pretty much see one or more in progress, with specially painted older buses, every morning.

Now I know some will respond about "London bus wages", but it really shows the applicants are there provided the pay at appropriate levels is. It is the same major bus groups running groups of services there as elsewhere in the country, so they should be able to readily learn from this.

That is slightly different as it's a full-time permanent job rather than the 'gig economy' of rail replacement work, however there are bus operators still struggling to recruit full-time drivers.

 

[Goldfish62]

Not much the railway industry can do about bus driver shortages.

The inability to provide reliable alternatives during engineering processions very much is the railway's problem, however much the industry likes to blame everyone else for all its ills.

 

[43066]

The inability to provide reliable alternatives during engineering processions very much is the railway's problem, however much the industry likes to blame everyone else for all its ills.

I’m sure if the railway was prepared to pay enough it would rapidly become a case of “what shortage?” !

 

[Edsmith]

The inability to provide reliable alternatives during engineering processions very much is the railway's problem, however much the industry likes to blame everyone else for all its ills.

The general rule seems to be get a taxi, get a receipt and they'll reimburse. What else do you suggest they do?

 

[Goldfish62]

The general rule seems to be get a taxi, get a receipt and they'll reimburse. What else do you suggest they do?

Completely inadequate. That puts the onus on the customer and requires you to wait at a station for some considerable time until it's obvious the bus isn't going to turn up.

Pay operators a decent rate so they can pass that on to attract drivers. The bus operators aren't there to dig the railways out of a hole of their own making.
Review processions and look to where diversions can be used to reduce the need for replacement buses. This has the double benefit of actually being what passengers would generally prefer, even if it means a longer end to end journey.

 

[Horizon22]

If works are planned months in advance, surely it at that point months earlier when the rail replacement buses should be contracted, rather than nearer the date? That would give greater ability for bus companies to plan for abailability.

They often are, at least with outline provision. Then the bus company says “sorry can’t provide it”.

Much like how a rail timetable is planned for the following 6 months in May and rosters planned to cover all train crew shifts until there’s shortages / sickness / AL / medical restrictions etc which are fed in only a week or days in advance.

There’s a difference between rostering/planning (longer-term) and resourcing (short-term).

 

[The Planner]

Completely inadequate. That puts the onus on the customer and requires you to wait at a station for some considerable time until it's obvious the bus isn't going to turn up.

Pay operators a decent rate so they can pass that on to attract drivers. The bus operators aren't there to dig the railways out of a hole of their own making.
Review processions and look to where diversions can be used to reduce the need for replacement buses. This has the double benefit of actually being what passengers would generally prefer, even if it means a longer end to end journey.

Won't work in the short term due to loss of TOC route knowledge. Even the FOCs are struggling.

 

[Horizon22]

In a lot of cases rail replacement is given out on an ad-hoc basis. It’s necessary to do it this way because the requirements for buses vary greatly from week to week. When people aren’t guaranteed work on a routine basis, they can’t sustainably reserve their weekends just in case they are needed.

The driver shortage problem might go away if contracts were created where the operators committed to provide a fixed number of buses each weekend. If it’s a quiet weekend for closures the buses could be on standby in strategic places. The consistent provision of work will increase the pool of quality, trained drivers. Maybe once upon a time this would be viewed as an unnecessary expense, but this shortage of resource is becoming a recurring theme.

Yes if the issue could go beyond just one TOC and support a wider region/area they could be redeployed accordingly. But the railway structure doesn’t work like this currently.

 

[Goldfish62]

Won't work in the short term due to loss of TOC route knowledge. Even the FOCs are struggling.

But surely it would address it medium to long term?

 

[Horizon22]

Then the railway needs to become more proactive in providing alternatives by rail and by contracting acceptance by local bus, not just shrug its shoulders and go "not my fault guv".

What if local buses start/finish long after / well before the end of the train service and at tiny frequencies, often not serving the station areas? They’d be overwhelmed not to mention still under-provision.

This really isn’t easy to solve nor can the “railway” wave a magic wand to resolve it, even if TOCs were able to double their budget.

 

[The Planner]

But surely it would address it medium to long term?

File under GBR.

 

[Goldfish62]

They often are, at least with outline provision. Then the bus company says “sorry can’t provide it”.

I think one of the problems these days is the huge volume of weekend engineering work requiring replacement buses. Even without the current driver shortages at some operators there simply wouldn't be the volume of buses and drivers to consistently provide the required amounts.

It feel to me like those planning engineering possessions are unaware that there are only finite numbers of buses and drivers out there and sooner or later the ceiling was always going to be hit.

 

[The Planner]

It feel to me like those planning engineering possessions are unaware that there are only finite numbers of buses and drivers out there and sooner or later the ceiling was always going to be hit.

Incorrect, TOCs are part of the planning and are aware of the implications.

 

[Ken H]

Surely Network Rail should source the buses. They would be for passengers of any TOC on that line. NR know when they are doing a possession, so would know they have to book buses, and to book them early. At the same time they book cranes and track workers. And like any input into a piece of work, if its not available, then the work is cancelled.
This slapdash approach has to be resolved. Its become the subject of satire.

 

[Horizon22]

I think one of the problems these days is the huge volume of weekend engineering work requiring replacement buses. Even without the current driver shortages at some operators there simply wouldn't be the volume of buses and drivers to consistently provide the required amounts.

It feel to me like those planning engineering possessions are unaware that there are only finite numbers of buses and drivers out there and sooner or later the ceiling was always going to be hit.

Is there more than there was say, 5 years ago? I honestly don't know, but it doesn't seem drastically different anecdotally. If there isn't then that wouldn't be a valid reason.

There may also be local factors in that some parts of the country this is particularly acute.

 

[Ken H]

Is there more than there was say, 5 years ago? I honestly don't know, but it doesn't seem drastically different anecdotally. If there isn't then that wouldn't be a valid reason.

There may also be local factors in that some parts of the country this is particularly acute.

For a variety of reasons, many EU workers dont want to work in the UK any more. The increasing wages available nearer home, and a better tax code in the EU (no IR35) mean many can work close to home, without the costs of running another home in the UK.
That led to HGV driver shortage, so they poached bus drivers. All this came to a head when Covid struck, and HGV and bus tests effectively stopped.

 

[Edsmith]

Completely inadequate. That puts the onus on the customer and requires you to wait at a station for some considerable time until it's obvious the bus isn't going to turn up.

Pay operators a decent rate so they can pass that on to attract drivers. The bus operators aren't there to dig the railways out of a hole of their own making.
Review processions and look to where diversions can be used to reduce the need for replacement buses. This has the double benefit of actually being what passengers would generally prefer, even if it means a longer end to end journey.

I agree it puts an unfair onus on customers as they've got to have the means to pay for the taxi in the first place but I don't see how this is a hole of the railways own making, it's largely caused by circumstances outside of their control, and obviously there are limits as to how much money they can throw at bus operators. Trains are often diverted around engineering work but obviously this isn't always possible.

 

[bunty0657]

One reason why some bus and coach operators choose to avoid rail replacement work is the money on offer.

The rate card from one of the providers of rail replacement services to train operating companies was circulated by said business in November last year. For a full-size coach provided on behalf of one TOC on the northern WCML, £225 would be paid for the first three hours. That was followed by £55 per hour, or £1.80 per mile, but with the same rates applying 24/7. Another WCML operator came with £280 attached for the first four hours, followed by £60 per hour or £1.80 per mile.

To access these pots of gold, the bus or coach operator needs to initially complete an audit with the provider's "compliance team", with no guarantee of being offered any work once it has done so.

I shall leave it to others to work out the viability of running a coach potentially worth £250k, and which does in the region of 10 miles per expensive gallon of diesel, against those rates, but to give a very loose example on the mileage front, hiring a coach for the the c.400-mile round trip from Manchester to London would have cost £1,200 several years ago and I imagine is closer to, if not above, £1,800 now.

 

[Llanigraham]

Surely Network Rail should source the buses. They would be for passengers of any TOC on that line. NR know when they are doing a possession, so would know they have to book buses, and to book them early. At the same time they book cranes and track workers. And like any input into a piece of work, if its not available, then the work is cancelled.
This slapdash approach has to be resolved. Its become the subject of satire.

As has been pointed out numerous times in this thread there is no magic bus tree, or magic bus drivers tree. There is a national shortage of bus drivers.

 

[The Planner]

Surely Network Rail should source the buses. They would be for passengers of any TOC on that line. NR know when they are doing a possession, so would know they have to book buses, and to book them early. At the same time they book cranes and track workers. And like any input into a piece of work, if its not available, then the work is cancelled.
This slapdash approach has to be resolved. Its become the subject of satire.

How does NR know how many to book, from where to where etc? That is the TOC expertise as its their business. Who organises any extra station staff etc to help during the works?

 

[Class 170101]

Surely Network Rail should source the buses. They would be for passengers of any TOC on that line. NR know when they are doing a possession, so would know they have to book buses, and to book them early. At the same time they book cranes and track workers. And like any input into a piece of work, if its not available, then the work is cancelled.
This slapdash approach has to be resolved. Its become the subject of satire.

As has been said above Leave the TOCs to manage their affairs and NR the infrastructure, NR have enough to sort out without sorting out stuff they know nothing about.

 

[dk1]

Surely Network Rail should source the buses. They would be for passengers of any TOC on that line. NR know when they are doing a possession, so would know they have to book buses, and to book them early. At the same time they book cranes and track workers. And like any input into a piece of work, if its not available, then the work is cancelled.
This slapdash approach has to be resolved. Its become the subject of satire.

The welfare of passengers is the responsibility of the TOCs. Nothing to do with NR.