IslandLine101
Member
Today looking better. +9 leaving Bidston on the last run. It’s only got to last another 3 ish hours and its completed the day
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Class 230 units training/introduction on the Borderlands line: updates
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So it seens to have lost roughly 2mins on each run, and is 18 mins late after 5 return runs. That seems a good re-start and not massively different to delays with 150s
In theory acceleration should be better from stations, so what causes the delays. Is it drivers slowing down esrlier at stations whilst they get used to them, or is it the slow doors, can any speed restrictions be eliminated with the new track recently laid?
In theory acceleration should be better from stations, so what causes the delays. Is it drivers slowing down esrlier at stations whilst they get used to them, or is it the slow doors, can any speed restrictions be eliminated with the new track recently laid?
It's managed to claw back some time, presume due to the longer layovers that pop up in the evening. Its currently running 7 late heading back to Wrexham on its final trip of the day.
Is this the first time it's made it through the day without cancellation?
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
Based on this
Realtime Trains | Departures from Bidston all day on 05/04/2023
Train information at Bidston all day on 05/04/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.
www.realtimetrains.co.uk
Even better then, fingers crossed..Based on this
it looks like it did all day on the 5th.Realtime Trains | Departures from Bidston all day on 05/04/2023
Train information at Bidston all day on 05/04/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.
A notice has been put up regarding 230s and the fault which caused it brakes to lock on the other day. Basically if the Auxiliary button isn't held long enough when setting up, it can cause systems not to run properly. I have experienced similar in the past on Volvo Hybrid buses, were if you instantly started the engine without leaving the ignition on for a few seconds first, the hybrid system wouldn't work properly.
So a training issue by the sound of it.
Lets hope they can get a 230 on the first diagram of the day or a 150 back as an interim if 175s are getting back in service. Maybe the latter would be better to allow less rushed training of drivers
I'm not sure if it's a training issue or if it's just not something thats arisen yet
emoaconr
Member
Did the journey today Bidston-Wrexham.
I do have to say, the 230s felt much more at ease going up the hill from Shotton up to Hawarden, compared with the slow struggle the 150s seemed to endure. Everything else was absolutely fine. The only thing I can imagine is the slow opening of the doors and the slow line speeds on certain parts of the line.
I do have to say, the 230s felt much more at ease going up the hill from Shotton up to Hawarden, compared with the slow struggle the 150s seemed to endure. Everything else was absolutely fine. The only thing I can imagine is the slow opening of the doors and the slow line speeds on certain parts of the line.
norbitonflyer
Established Member
RTT says unit 008 out today. Just started its second round trip, albeit 13 minutes down
CaergwrleKen
Member
People getting excited because a full day of running was achieved, wow. They can’t keep to the timings even with hardly any passengers, a trip will be missed out soon today because of late running. Yesterdays diagram ended almost 30 mins late
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
230 010 even lost time on its ECS run back to Birkenhead North, if RTT is correct.
So that's nothing to do with station stops and slow door operation.
I notice it is 008 today and it seems roughly seeing an additional minute delay after leaving quite a few stations, which is adding up to quite a delay now. Whilst 010 was only down 2 or 3 mins over the full leg and about 15mins after quite a few return trips. Does 008 have mechanical issues?
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
I think I'm down to work one this week. Im used to working the 150s down there but once ive given a 230 a go in service ill report back with my findings.
Having a chat with a driver earlier he said in comparison to a 150 the acceleration is a million times better, no issues up the hills at all whereas the 150s just about get to line speed.
Having a chat with a driver earlier he said in comparison to a 150 the acceleration is a million times better, no issues up the hills at all whereas the 150s just about get to line speed.
southern442
Established Member
Why is it that they're struggling so much to keep to time then? They seem to be better than the 150s performance wise, and surely the slightly slower doors can't be too much of an issue.
Are the timings different to when whatever worked the line before did so?
I imagine it could be drivers shying away from what's in their hands. Diesel-electrics are far more performant than diesel-hydraulics and don't mind driven like they're supposed to be.
I imagine it could be drivers shying away from what's in their hands. Diesel-electrics are far more performant than diesel-hydraulics and don't mind driven like they're supposed to be.
AFAICT it's still being timed as a 15x.
I'd imagine a mix of a few factors including (but not limited to!) -
-Crew unfamiliar with the new stock - drivers will be cautious with their braking until they're used to them, once theyre comfortable and get to know the new braking points that will help. The 150s are driven quite hard to keep to time by most drivers. Likewise with the acceleration - these are hugely different to the stuff theyre used to driving, so probably arnt quite brave enough yet. Also setting up/closing down the cab changing ends will be different and take some getting used to.
-Slow doors leading to longer dwell times - I've not seen this first hand yet.
-Conductors not used to the trains yet - not only slower opening/closing the doors etc but also getting used to the longer trains and tighter fit on platforms. Effectively still getting their bearings. Instructors/trainers are out assisting. Also getting used to loading/unloading the ramp - I can't quite remember how easy it is (or isnt) to get out and put back but that's likely to cost a few minutes for the first few goes.
-Speed restriction of 10mph in the Up direction at Buckley due to poor sighting of foot crossing.
-Inadequate timetable (which it has been for decades) meaning little to no turnaround time causing delays to carry over all day. I believe introduced by BR to require less trains/crew to run the service to cut costs. Shotton turn backs due to late running where a daily occurrence on the line for years when 153s ran it!
-Crew unfamiliar with the new stock - drivers will be cautious with their braking until they're used to them, once theyre comfortable and get to know the new braking points that will help. The 150s are driven quite hard to keep to time by most drivers. Likewise with the acceleration - these are hugely different to the stuff theyre used to driving, so probably arnt quite brave enough yet. Also setting up/closing down the cab changing ends will be different and take some getting used to.
-Slow doors leading to longer dwell times - I've not seen this first hand yet.
-Conductors not used to the trains yet - not only slower opening/closing the doors etc but also getting used to the longer trains and tighter fit on platforms. Effectively still getting their bearings. Instructors/trainers are out assisting. Also getting used to loading/unloading the ramp - I can't quite remember how easy it is (or isnt) to get out and put back but that's likely to cost a few minutes for the first few goes.
-Speed restriction of 10mph in the Up direction at Buckley due to poor sighting of foot crossing.
-Inadequate timetable (which it has been for decades) meaning little to no turnaround time causing delays to carry over all day. I believe introduced by BR to require less trains/crew to run the service to cut costs. Shotton turn backs due to late running where a daily occurrence on the line for years when 153s ran it!
norbitonflyer
Established Member
Completed six round trips with a cumulative delay of 24 minutes - that's less than two minutes per journey. It's only the ridiculously short layover times that makes it look so bad.
(yes, three runs did omit Wrexham Central)
(yes, three runs did omit Wrexham Central)
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
How does Transport for Wales view these omissions of Wrexham Central?
A quick summary of todays antics according to RTT-
1st Trip WXC-BID, Lost 5 minutes - no time recovered on turnaround at Bidston.
2nd Trip BID-WXC lost a further 7 minutes. Now 12 late - no time recovered on turnaround at Wrexham.
3rd Trip WXC-BID lost a further 6 minutes, Now 18 late - no time recovered on turnaround at Bidston.
4th Trip BID-WXC lost a further 6 minutes, Now 23 late - terminated short at Wrexham General, recovered 3 minutes.
5th trip WRX-BID departed 20 minutes late according to RTT but had made up 7 minutes by Dee Marsh and a further minute by Bidston - arrival 12 late (Unsure how accurate this is??) - No time recovered on turnaround at Bidston.
6th trip BID-WXC departed 12 late, lost a further 4 minutes, now 16 late. Lost an extra minute on turnaround at WXC.
7th trip WXC-BID departed 17 late, however lost only 1 minute on route arriving 18 late. Made up 1 minute on turnaround at Bidston, departing 17 late.
8th trip BID-WXC departed 17 late, lost a further 2 minutes on route, arriving 19 late - terminated short at Wrexham General, making up no time on turnaround and departing 17 late.
9th trip WRX-BID, departed 17 late, lost a further 4 minutes on route arriving 21 late - No time recovered on turnaround at Bidston.
10th trip BID-WXC departed 21 late, lost a further 13 minutes on route, arriving at Wrexham General 34 late were it was terminated short. This trip has a longer layover at Wrexham Central so made up 14 minutes due to a mix of turnaround time and terminating short.
11th trip WRX-BID departed 20 late. Lost a few more minutes but made it back up, arriving at Bidston 21 late. 2 minutes recovered on turnaround at Bidston (evening turnarounds are longer)
12th trip BID-WXC departed 19 late, lost a further 6 minutes on route. Arrived at WXC 25 late, before departing ECS for BKN depot 22 late.
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
It's good that the turnarounds aren't causing any time loss, and in one case, making up 1 minute (7th trip).
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
I'm a bit suspicious of the RTT times on this route.
On several occasions I've noticed northbound times posted for Upton/Bidston when in real time the train has not even left Heswall.
On several occasions I've noticed northbound times posted for Upton/Bidston when in real time the train has not even left Heswall.
The realtime for these stations seems to autofill itself with a rough guess. The only reliable times logged would be Wrexham General, Penyffordd, Dee Marsh and Bidston
So, given a day when the unit completed the diagram, does anyone have any reliable information as to the cause or causes of running times being exceeded? Is it drivers still getting used to handling the sets, braking cautiously, doors being slow to operate, lack of power to attain line speed, or something else?
anthony263
Established Member
Probably a combination of everything
I had my first trip on these new units yesterday (12/04) doing a return from Bidston to Wrexham (2J84/2F90).
During the first journey 2J84 BID - WXC it felt like we where losing anywhere between 10-25 seconds at stations (Taking longer than the booked 30 second stop).
For my trip only I would contribute to this to the unfamiliarity of operating the units on the part of the guard who almost hit themselves with the door at one station due to incorrectly pressing the close local door button instead of the door close button, the guard did not seem very familiar with the layout of the guard panel yet. Also due to the slow to operate doors a chain delay is created as the length of time it takes for the guard's local door to open means that it takes longer for the guard to release the doors which are also then slow to open. I saw quite a few passengers beginning to panic as they repeatedly pressed the open door button prior to the guard even releasing the doors. The tight fit of the train on some platforms also seemed to mean the guard was very thoroughly checking the position of the train walking quite a distance away from the local door before returning to release the doors.
The second journey was an interesting comparison as a driver change had taken place at Wrexham General, it was interesting that the second driver seemed to feel much more confident with the train taking power quicker and carrying more speed into stations, and though the guard was the same for this journey it seemed as though they had warmed up a bit and we were only losing up to 15 seconds at some stations, there was also less passengers getting on and off which probably helped.
The RTT data for the two trips show
2J84 BID-WXC as losing 4 minutes over the journey (departed BID +14 arrived WXC +18)
2F90 WXC-BID actually making up 2 minutes over the journey (granted there was a 3 minutes pathing allowance at Upton) (departed WXC +11 arrived BID +9)
Dai Corner
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They probably don't care, the operator and regulator being pretty much the same organisation. Welcome to the nationalised railway!
The guard panel layout is odd on these as the open buttons are vertical rather than horizontal like every other train so would certainly take a bit if getting used to!
You're right regarding tight platforms, some are very tight so extra care needs to be taken to ensure the train is fully accommodated. This also means drivers will be significantly more cautious when braking for a station and coming to a stand as there's no wiggle room unlike the shorter 150s. Too short and the back is off, to far and the front is off!
I believe some drivers have racked up a few shifts on them now so I'd imagine you'd notice a bit of a difference if a more familiar driver is at the helm.
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