Class 230 units training/introduction on the Borderlands line: updates

[L401CJF]

I think you were the guard on my first journey on a TfW class 230 on Friday. I boarded the 12.34 at Bidston which was about 8 minutes late. We spoke about the banging noise from the gangway tread plate.

Yes I think you are right! Nice to put a face to a name for a change on this forum!

 

[Krokodil]

Living near one of the stations, one positive for the 230 is that it is considerably quieter.

Wasn't the original plan for the units to use GPS to switch to battery in residential areas?

 

[DLAYKEGER]

The battery side is a whole new dimension, not yet deployed.

I thought the engines powered the battteries, which in turn power the motors, with regenative breaking topping up.batteries, plus geofencing allowing for none engine starts on battery power
Or is some of that system not working?

 

[Alpine Rider]

I think the TFW 230s are indeed Hybrid units with energy from batteries supplying the traction motors which can return energy to the batteries when in regenerative braking mode. Power to recharge the batteries comes from gensets mounted under the middle car.

As for the excessive delay closing doors - this all boils down to Vivarail ensuring their products complied with RVAR rules. If you are interested in understanding this further I suggest you check out the explicit exemption which LUL obtained for their fleets to allow a shorter audible/visible alert period before the doors actually start to close. LUL basically showed complying with RVAR was actually counter productive in terms of safety so were granted a permanent exemption --- more here https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...ory-note.pdf&usg=AOvVaw35-AC706aVTRdvYQBGKJ_L

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So a continuous hybrid system like my hybrid car then?
I was expecting something like an independent battery setup for "last mile" operation (eg in depots), or for a boost up hills.

 

[Chris125]

Good timekeeping this morning, a more experienced driver?

Realtime Trains | Departures from Wrexham Central all day on 19/04/2023

Train information at Wrexham Central all day on 19/04/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[L401CJF]

Good timekeeping this morning, a more experienced driver?

Realtime Trains | Departures from Wrexham Central all day on 19/04/2023

Train information at Wrexham Central all day on 19/04/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Just had a flick through today's journeys on there and it doesn't seem to have lost more than a couple of minutes, extemely promising. Clearly being driven to its full potential today!

 

[anthony263]

Just had a flick through today's journeys on there and it doesn't seem to have lost more than a couple of minutes, extemely promising. Clearly being driven to its full potential today!

Probably a driver shouting power !! As they pull away lol

 

[DLAYKEGER]

Going back to yesterday and the non running. I assume that meant 2 of 3 units at Birkenhead North were needing repair, as they need at least 2 operational to run one. Does anyone know the location of the other two 230s, as I have only ever seen 3 parked up, outside the depot

 

[L401CJF]

Going back to yesterday and the non running. I assume that meant 2 of 3 units at Birkenhead North were needing repair, as they need at least 2 operational to run one. Does anyone know the location of the other two 230s, as I have only ever seen 3 parked up, outside the depot

As far as I know they're all at Birkenhead North, I've seen them inside the shed before so possibly 2 hidden indoors?

 

[Dan G]

So a continuous hybrid system like my hybrid car then?
I was expecting something like an independent battery setup for "last mile" operation (eg in depots), or for a boost up hills.

No the other way round. The 230s are propelled by traction motors powered by batteries. The batteries are charged by diesel generators. The diesel engines don't need to be running for the train to operate.

 

[Parjon]

I think the TFW 230s are indeed Hybrid units with energy from batteries supplying the traction motors which can return energy to the batteries when in regenerative braking mode. Power to recharge the batteries comes from gensets mounted under the middle car.

As for the excessive delay closing doors - this all boils down to Vivarail ensuring their products complied with RVAR rules. If you are interested in understanding this further I suggest you check out the explicit exemption which LUL obtained for their fleets to allow a shorter audible/visible alert period before the doors actually start to close. LUL basically showed complying with RVAR was actually counter productive in terms of safety so were granted a permanent exemption --- more here https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...ory-note.pdf&usg=AOvVaw35-AC706aVTRdvYQBGKJ_L

So they accepted LUL evidence (of stating the obvious!) but I assume they haven't automatically rolled this out to other turn-up-and-go networks (such as merseyrail) where the same passenger behaviour will be a risk I take it?

I assume the new merseyrail trains will have overly slow doors that encourage people to jump on rather than stand back. Thinking of the old woman a few years back that was knocked down the side of the train by closing doors, these people would surely have negligence claims when the authorities are in receipt of this evidence!

 

[Invincible]

No the other way round. The 230s are propelled by traction motors powered by batteries. The batteries are charged by diesel generators. The diesel engines don't need to be running for the train to operate.

Would not go far on just the batteries that are fitted on the train.
Think it is?; both diesel and battery on acceleration, see 2mins 50 sec on video.

Then when at full speed diesel powered, with batteries on charge, then when braking into a station the regenerated power generated by the motors also recharges batteries. Approaching the station the diesels could be switched off or be in idle till the train starts.

 

[D821]

Going back to yesterday and the non running. I assume that meant 2 of 3 units at Birkenhead North were needing repair, as they need at least 2 operational to run one. Does anyone know the location of the other two 230s, as I have only ever seen 3 parked up, outside the depot

There are four there, normally. Sometimes they're kept inside but from what I've seen passing by recently, all four have been outside.

 

[Chris125]

Good timekeeping this morning, a more experienced driver?

Realtime Trains | Departures from Wrexham Central all day on 19/04/2023

Train information at Wrexham Central all day on 19/04/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Happy to report good timekeeping was maintained all day and a 3rd unit - 009 - was out running as well.

 

[shredder1]

Are these likely to be running on saturday?

 

[Rhinojerry]

Passed depot about 1500 today,units 006 and 009 outside.

 

[D365]

Then when at full speed diesel powered, with batteries on charge, then when braking into a station the regenerated power generated by the motors also recharges batteries. Approaching the station the diesels could be switched off or be in idle till the train starts.

That's the idea.

 

[XAM2175]

As for the excessive delay closing doors - this all boils down to Vivarail ensuring their products complied with RVAR rules. If you are interested in understanding this further I suggest you check out the explicit exemption which LUL obtained for their fleets to allow a shorter audible/visible alert period before the doors actually start to close. LUL basically showed complying with RVAR was actually counter productive in terms of safety so were granted a permanent exemption --- more here https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...ory-note.pdf&usg=AOvVaw35-AC706aVTRdvYQBGKJ_L

So they accepted LUL evidence (of stating the obvious!) but I assume they haven't automatically rolled this out to other turn-up-and-go networks (such as merseyrail) where the same passenger behaviour will be a risk I take it?

I assume the new merseyrail trains will have overly slow doors that encourage people to jump on rather than stand back. Thinking of the old woman a few years back that was knocked down the side of the train by closing doors, these people would surely have negligence claims when the authorities are in receipt of this evidence!

There wouldn't be an automatic roll-out to other operators. The process is set up so that the standard regulations apply unless and until a specific exemption is granted.

Additionally, that exemption is made under the Rail Vehicle Accessibility (Non-Interoperable Rail System) Regulations 2010, which applies to light rail systems and others of a similar nature that are not within the scope of the Railways (Interoperability) Regulations 2006 and 2011. Systems within the scope of the latter regulations - i.e. "mainline" railway, including Merseyrail and TfW Rail - have to instead apply the accessibility provisions of the PRM TSI (now PRM NTSN).

Anything further about Merseyrail belongs in a different thread.

 

[Invincible]

That's the idea.

Older diesel engines did not like stopping and starting, but the newer Ford diesel engines are better stopping and restarting and more suited to hybrid working.

 

[D365]

Older diesel engines did not like stopping and starting, but the newer Ford diesel engines are better stopping and restarting and more suited to hybrid working.

I can’t remember which engines are used by the TfW 230s, but they’re not Ford.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I can’t remember which engines are used by the TfW 230s, but they’re not Ford.

Then someone who does know should update Wikipedia

The 3.2-litre, five-cylinder diesel engines are manufactured by Ford in South Africa.

 

[D365]

Then someone who does know should update Wikipedia

That’s applicable to the Marston units only.

 

[Zontar]

They're ford rangers aren't they? I'm pretty sure they were originally transit ones but couldn't cope.

 

[Greybeard33]

They're ford rangers aren't they? I'm pretty sure they were originally transit ones but couldn't cope.

The 3.2 litre five cylinder Ford Duratorq engine is only fitted to Ford Rangers in the UK, but is an option on Transit vans in some foreign markets. This is the engine originally selected by Vivarail for the Class 230.

 

[Woods]

That’s applicable to the Marston units only.

Take it from me (I worked on the design), the engines in the WMTL units are the same as the engines in the TfW units, so I don't know where this particular nugget of misinformation came from!

The difference on the TfW units is that the engines are mapped differently because they perform on a different duty cycle compared to those on the WMT units. Whereas the WMT units used to rev up and down rather vigorously, the engines on the TfW units are able to operate at more of a steady state because in simple terms they are charging the batteries rather than providing power directly to the motors (though in reality the control of the power is not quite that simple). This 'steady state' mapping of the TfW engines should, in theory, treat them to a more relaxed lifestyle than those of the WMT fleet and hence they should be more reliable and last longer*

*Note that the engines on the TfW units were re-mapped by Ricardos, who are pretty much the bees knees when it comes to understanding and tuning diesel engines. This work was started by Vivarail but completed by TfW, I believe.

I can’t remember which engines are used by the TfW 230s, but they’re not Ford.

Yes they are Ford. Some confusion may have arisen because a few years ago Vivarail were talking about introducing a Caterpillar engine. But that never happened for various reasons.

 

[Turbo004]

Are these likely to be running on saturday?

Last I heard Class 230's are not running this Saturday in passenger service.

 

[185]

The local fishwrapper suggests the natives aren't happy. I don't disagree.

New Bidston to Wrexham line labelled 'unreliable' after service faces issues

CONCERNS have been raised around the new train services available on the Borderlands Line between Wrexham and Bidston.

www.wirralglobe.co.uk

New Bidston to Wrexham hybrid train lines face disruption​

20th April
By Rebecca McGrath

New Bidston to Wrexham line labelled 'unreliable' after service faces issues (Image: Selwyn Jones)

CONCERNS have been raised around the new train services available on the Borderlands Line between Wrexham and Bidston. Since being introduced rail users have expressed their frustration about the trains reliability with some saying the Transport for Wales (TfW) service has provided a “patchy service”.

The Wrexham Leader reported that disruption on the line has been affecting services for the past few weeks, due to maintenance being carried out on the Class 175 trains for TfW.
However, on April 3 the first battery-hybrids in Wales were introduced to the line and hoped to lead to the resumption of some services. The Class 230 trains have over 120 seats and with a capacity for over 420 customers, with TfW owning five.

However, rail travellers who use the line have noticed that services on the Class 230 train has also faced disruption in the last week, with TfW saying that “minor technical difficulties” and vandalism were to blame.

Labour MP for Wirral South Alison McGovern told the Globe: “My constituents trying to travel along the Wrexham to Bidston line have raised with me the decreasing reliability along the line, and in January I asked the Secretary of State for Wales directly what was being done. I was told a number of projects were being developed but it’s apparent from the continuing problems that these projects are taking too long to be implemented.
“Why is this part of the railway on the Wirral treated like a poor relation compared to the rest of the network? We have seen investment across Merseyside lead by Steve Rotheram, our Metro Mayor, and we need the same focus here. I have contacted Transport for Wales to discuss this further and will continue to raise the issue for my constituents, as I have since I was elected in 2010.”

The Wrexham Bidston Rail Users Association (WBRUA) Committee have also voiced their concerns over ongoing issues with the rail service.
A spokesperson for the association said: "Since it took over the Wrexham-Bidston service, TfW has consistently failed to provide accurate and up to date information and the ongoing unreliability of the Wrexham-Bidston service has resulted in many passengers questioning TfW’s ability to run the service.
"The rail replacement bus service for the Wrexham-Bidston line takes twice as long as the train. The ongoing lack of train service forces those who use it to find alternatives (in many cases, their cars) whilst undermining their confidence in rail and is almost certainly impacting on the local economy as well as worsening the congestion on our roads."
Marie Daly, Chief Customer and Culture Officer at Transport for Wales, said: “We understand the frustrations of the Wrexham Bidston Rail Users’ Association and we have met with them to discuss their concerns.
“We have been experiencing issues with capacity across the network due to our Class 175 trains requiring additional maintenance, but with some of these trains already back in service and with the first of the Class 230 trains entering service last week on the Wrexham – Bidston route, we are hopeful service levels will improve in the near future.”

 

[Woods]

Out of interest, how many consecutive days of service have the 230s given this week? Have there been any cancellations due to train faults this week? Does somebody have the figures for this week versus last week please?

 

[D365]

Yes they are Ford. Some confusion may have arisen because a few years ago Vivarail were talking about introducing a Caterpillar engine. But that never happened for various reasons.

Oops; that's exactly what caught me out. But thank you for providing this substantial information.