rich.davies
Member
Looks that way in RTT, however Sunday looks they have 150's running the service. Why can't they find these 2 x 150's for tomorrow is anyone's guess.
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Class 230 units training/introduction on the Borderlands line: updates
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6Gtraincrew
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Easy answer to that is 96 units are needed for the Saturday train plan and only 88 on a Sunday so there are spare 150's available to cover Bidston
rich.davies
Member
Ah thanks.
shredder1
Established Member
Thank you very much for that, appreciated sir.
Invincible
Member
Looks like TfW will press ahead with a hybrid 230 hourly service, but use conventional diesel 150s at weekends.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
When was the last time that such an operational matter as that in its use of rolling stock was in operation and where was it.
Quite a few of the newly-introduced classes have recently started on weekday only diagrams, IIRC.
TT-ONR-NRN
Established Member
I doubt it has as battery hybrids are very new, but I’m sure someone can create a separate “Trivia:” thread if there have been any other examples of battery on weekdays and diesel on weekends.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Has it ever been officially stated that these units were only ever intended to be a stop-gap infill on the Borderlands line until new units would be ready for operational service and also, with the matter of the Conwy Valley line, does anyone know what the future rolling stock plans are for that line?
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
Isn't it simply the 197s for that?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Yep, 197s already in use. Some talk of through services from Chester on days with significant tourist demand which are enabled by using the same stock as the mainline.
Invincible
Member
Although the body shell is over 40 years old, the refurbishment was extensive.
Class 230 D-Train
Class 230 D-Train is being developed by Vivarail through the conversion of retired London Underground D78 Stock. The new trains…
www.railway-technology.com
Says the a PR person of VivaRailAlthough the body shell is over 40 years old, the refurbishment was extensive.
"They are expected to offer a service lifespan of more than 25 years."Class 230 D-Train
Class 230 D-Train is being developed by Vivarail through the conversion of retired London Underground D78 Stock. The new trains…
krus_aragon
Established Member
I don't believe that there was every any official statement on how long the 230s were intended to be used on the Borderlands, however it was noted by many (including myself) at franchise award that choosing refurbished stock for the Borderlands (rather than just ordering extra 197s) would make it easier to replace them in the medium term with rolling stock suitable for through running to Liverpool. Here's a link to a forum discussion on that very topic from June 2018 when the Keolis-Amey franchise was awarded.
The Welsh Government has had very long-standing aspirations to establish through services to Liverpool and/or improve & electrify the Borderlands line, since the days of Carl Sargeant in 2012/2013 at least. (Here's two forum threads, with links to contemporary reports and statements.)
I don't recall seeing an official timeline of planned replacement from the Welsh Government: they kept their statements vague, such as Ken Skates stating "that the Wrexham to Bidston service, which will be extended to two trains per hour, is a key feature of the early development of the north-east Wales metro". The only official clue was that in amongst the franchise award documents, the Class 230 was listed as having the same lease end date as the new Civity trains: 2033 (i.e. franchise end).
Opinions may differ on how long a stop-gap arrangement is (much like pieces of string), but the Welsh Government okayed a small fleet of experimental, refurbished rolling stock for the line. It was also immediately apparent to industry observers (including those here) that the stock they'd procured could not operate through to Liverpool as-is.
I'll leave it to readers to decide whether this was an inferred plan by the Welsh Government to use the 230s short-term until suitable electric stock could be acquired, or a muck-up of ordering stock they thought could operate through to Liverpool, but isn't allowed to.
That's easier to answer: The plan to use 230s there was only ever a matter of convenience. 197s have been the long term plan for that line ever since the 2018 franchise.
D365
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You’d have to go a long way back in time, as the Class 230 (and Class 777) are the first battery trains in recent history to operate a regular passenger service.
Invincible
Member
However the class 483 LU 1938 stock lasted on the Island line till they were over 80 years old!
Unofficially I think the hope is 230s and a half hourly service will be successful enough to justify Merseyrail taking over the route with battery 777s. I doubt that will happen though and the 230s will stay until they are run into the ground.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
If they achieve operational status at the same level as current, they won't wear out for ages...
childwallblues
Established Member
Merseyrail have I understand been in discussions concernig the future of the Borderlands Line. It is a natual fit into Merseyrail and I would imagine be a preferred option of both Flint and Denbigh Councils.
Yes and they were absolutely knackered by that point.
Yes discussions have been on ongoing for ages. Before the franchise was awarded to Keolis, the Chief Exec of Cheshire West and Chester Council and equivalent at MerseyRail appeared before the Welsh Parliament Select Committee and waxed lyrical about the borderlands line and the wider North Wales Metro.
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Why bother? Just improve the connections with services along the coast. Of the passengers who change onto Conwy Valley Line services at Llandudno Junction, few come from stations between Colwyn Bay and Chester. Most have come from further afield, particularly London.
If they really wanted to improve services in the Conwy Valley, they could add a second unit diagram.
Liverpool 507
Member
Interesting that it has all gone quiet on a 197 running a service on the Borderlands line. However, I believe that’s when the two hourly service comes in to play
I was told yesterday its still planned for the hourly service to be reinstated from the May TT change, crew training has been massively ramped up since pre 230 introduction.
197s are planned for the new 2tph semi-fast services, expected to start in the autumn. Available 197s are currently heavily utilised in North Wales due to the lack of 175s, there seems to be a fair few Llandudno to Manchesters which are now running as 4 car 197s too and any spare units are being used for crew training (aswell as some units which havnt been accepted for service yet).
On a plus note, the 230 doesn't seem to be having many issues (touch wood!) and is settling in nicely. Speaking to some colleagues of mine yesterday the general consensus is that the delays are indeed mainly due to driver familiarity. Like I said previously you can really feel the difference when it's a driver more familiar with the 230 compared to one who isn't, give it time and I think the 230s will be just fine!
TT-ONR-NRN
Established Member
Going by current operational status one might suggest they’re worn out already! (Which I, btw, think they are. These TfW ones appear to look like SWR 455s inside, which says it all really)If they achieve operational status at the same level as current, they won't wear out for ages...
D365
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Between the various (and highly critiqued) teething troubles, I don’t think anyone has ever complained about the interior quality of the Class 230s in their various guises. They’re a marked step up from Class 150s and Class 483s.
I had a chat with one of the onboard technicians this morning. He said they've been behaving well and that they won't be riding on them from now on. This can only be a good sign!
He also said they cant speed the doors up because they become too violent when slamming shut and would cause injury should somebody get in the way- presumably this is due to whatever component was removed mentioned earlier in thread.
First service lost some time this morning at General awaiting train crew. Having a look through RTT it ran pretty consistently for the first 4 hours, not losing/gaining further time.
He also said they cant speed the doors up because they become too violent when slamming shut and would cause injury should somebody get in the way- presumably this is due to whatever component was removed mentioned earlier in thread.
First service lost some time this morning at General awaiting train crew. Having a look through RTT it ran pretty consistently for the first 4 hours, not losing/gaining further time.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The "catcher", a device that stops the door closing the last couple of inches quickly. I don't entirely understand why they were removed. Does anyone know?
anthony263
Established Member
Something to do with accessibility regulations for mainline rolling stock compared to LUL regulations
Chris125
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Have you set foot on either? Aside from the colour red I'm struggling...
Not only was the D78's original interior refurb more comprehensive than the (highly regarded IIRC) 455s for SWT, but TfW's have also gained air-con, toilets, LED lighting, new seating with tables and walkthrough gangways. IMO they look modern and feel new and that seems to be the feedback from ordinary passengers too.
Vivarail have been criticised for many things but I can't recall 'worn out' interiors ever being one of them.
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