Future of Wrexham-Bidston line, inc. possible franchise swap etc.

[PR1Berske]

The Wales and Borders franchise thread ( here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/keolis-amey-to-take-over-wales-and-borders.164805/ ) has briefly moved onto the topic of the Wrexham-Bidston line after this announcement by Vivarail ( here: http://vivarail.co.uk/vivarail-announce-new-order-for-wales-and-borders/ ) in which they confirm they are the preferred bidder to supply a fleet of Class 230 D-Trains to Keolis Amey for North Wales.

This has sparked discussion not just about their use in the North Wales area, but also how Wales services could be extended into Liverpool and the integration of Merseyrail services onto the route.

I've started this thread as a "fork" to avoid the franchise thread going off topic too much. I think there's much to be said for both extending a Wales franchise from Wrexham into Liverpool , and perhaps transferring Wrexham-Bidston to Merseyrail.

What say the forum? Does Vivarail have the right stock for this line, and what future does the line have under Wales and Borders?

 

[8H]

I don’t think franchise geography should be a consuming issue with this route at all and the “fake” issue of the Wales England border is especially irrelevant. The important thing is co-operation between partners and that’s been working very well recently. Through services do matter, so too does through ticketing with TfL style additional zones which could encompass NW Coast and Wrexham route station stations into existing Merseyrail ticketing products increasing value for money which is another stimulus to additional patronage. Removing the artificial journey and ticketing borders will lead to to better use of public transport from N Wales to Wirral and Merseyside. The relevant authorities in Wales and England both need the powers and influence and funding so that people in each area get the benefits.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To me the most sensible approach is that it goes to Merseyrail using some of the follow-on "FLIRT" order (either 4 or 5 units, depending on whether it goes round the Loop) - either battery powered and charging on the third rail run or bi-mode.

This probably applies to most of the other viable Merseyrail extensions too i.e.
- Skem/Wigan Wallgate bay (to connect onwards to Manchester - I think the people of the line would appreciate a direct 2tph Liverpool service more than hourly to Manchester with nothing in the evening)
- Preston hourly (or Burscough Bridge half hourly via the South Curve as is my preference)
- Ellesmere Port to Helsby hourly

 

[frodshamfella]

Yep, Merseyrail should run this route, and into Liverpool City Centre if it can be done.

 

[emoaconr]

The Bidston-Wrexham line is naturally treated as part of the Merseyrail network in all but name. Its timetables feature in Merseytravel booklets and at Liverpool underground stations, Merseytravel posters are displayed at stations and both Heswall and Upton feature Merseytravel totem signs (though oddly, unlike Northern-operated stations through the City Line, do not feature the yellow and grey colourscheme on station furniture). Hell, even the direction of travel signs on the platform refer solely to "Wrexham" in one way and "Liverpool" the other. Its fares are very cheap and are influenced by Merseytravel PTE fare structures, particularly at the north end of the line. The line serves little purpose to the W&B franchise with no metropolitan conurbation at either end, poorly timed connections with mainline services and a lack of any form of through-service outside of the line whatsoever. Despite this, it does well as effectively an appendage of Merseyrail and despite the issues relating to staffing and infrastructre it suffers, it largely is a commuter and leisure line connecting Wrexham and Flintshire with Liverpool.

I would have always liked to have seen the Merseyrail franchisee to incorporate some of the local stopping DMU (and now 25kV AC EMU) services for a more integrated 'city-network'. Whilst at first I found it a bit odd that Northern would continue the City Line services after electrification, I do get it that these services are not exclusively to serve Merseyside. Being originally from Wrexham, I used solely the Welsh section when I was working that way which does generate a lot of passengers, however I feel the majority are using it cross-river. The 'border' in this region is nonsensical to most people who live locally; it might exist but in reality it's a very joined-up and interconnected region.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is - as I've said before Scotland is very much separated from England both politically and through the vast swathe of nothingness between Carlisle and the Central Belt. But Wales isn't - it's really integrated into the nearby parts of England much more than it is within itself.

 

[Bovverboy]

The Wales and Borders franchise thread ( here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/keolis-amey-to-take-over-wales-and-borders.164805/ ) has briefly moved onto the topic of the Wrexham-Bidston line after this announcement by Vivarail ( here: http://vivarail.co.uk/vivarail-announce-new-order-for-wales-and-borders/ ) in which they confirm they are the preferred bidder to supply a fleet of Class 230 D-Trains to Keolis Amey for North Wales.

This has sparked discussion not just about their use in the North Wales area, but also how Wales services could be extended into Liverpool and the integration of Merseyrail services onto the route.

I don't think running 230s on Wrexham - Bidston means that there's going to any extension of the route into Liverpool anytime soon, since the 230 is, as I understand it, a diesel-only unit. You would do better with 769s (but with the collector shoes retained instead of the pantograph, of course). An hourly service Wrexham - Liverpool - Wrexham could be comfortably provided by three units, instead of the current hourly Wrexham to Bidston being provided, most uncomfortably, by two.

 

[pdeaves]

the 230 is, as I understand it, a diesel-only unit

The Vivarail page linked above states "our trains will be built as battery/diesel hybrids". It seems they will supply whatever format the operator wants.

 

[B&I]

Hopefully, when and if Merseyrail's battery hybrids have proved themselves, direct services will run from the Liverpool loop to Wrexham at comparable frequencies to other Merseyrail services, making this a much more practical and popular service.

However, a further substantial boost to demand would be delivered by building stations at Ford / Beechwood and Woodchurch (near junction 3 of the M53). One or both of these could be a park and ride, serving the mid-Wirral villages which have no rail lines, as well as the western extremities of Birkenhead.

 

[Bovverboy]

The Vivarail page linked above states "our trains will be built as battery/diesel hybrids". It seems they will supply whatever format the operator wants.

I'd really lost track of the 230 programme. It's now being stated on Wikipedia that the (230s, by implication) will generally run on battery power only, with the diesel engines only present as backup, which strikes me as someone having great faith in their batteries. Doubling of the service is planned for next year, with possible extension into Liverpool by 2022. It is, however, stated that operation over the existing electrified line would use current obtained through collector shoes.

 

[Bevan Price]

I see no prospects of the 230s being allowed to use the Liverpool loop. They are underpowered - remember there are gradients as steep as 1 in 27 between James St. & Hamilton Square. Anything unable to match the performance of Classes 507/508 & their replacements would disrupt the timetable & reduce the number of paths.

 

[kieron]

Do you happen to know what the capacity of the tunnel under the Mersey actually is? I'm thinking that it doesn't matter if a train uses up a couple of 50x/777 paths if there are a couple of spare paths at the right time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do you happen to know what the capacity of the tunnel under the Mersey actually is? I'm thinking that it doesn't matter if a train uses up a couple of 50x/777 paths if there are a couple of spare paths at the right time.

The Loop was originally signalled for 30tph, but I believe the 1990s resignalling reduced it slightly. But I believe it's nowhere near capacity, presently running at 14tph.

But I similarly just can't see 230s going there (if nothing else there aren't enough on order to do it with a maintenance spare). The 230s will tide us over for 10 years or so before a follow on order of 777s with batteries or a diesel power module take over making it a proper part of Merseyrail.

 

[krus_aragon]

Being originally from Wrexham, I used solely the Welsh section when I was working that way which does generate a lot of passengers, however I feel the majority are using it cross-river.

When you say "cross-river", are you referring to the Dee or the Mersey?

 

[B&I]

I'd really lost track of the 230 programme. It's now being stated on Wikipedia that the (230s, by implication) will generally run on battery power only, with the diesel engines only present as backup, which strikes me as someone having great faith in their batteries. Doubling of the service is planned for next year, with possible extension into Liverpool by 2022. It is, however, stated that operation over the existing electrified line would use current obtained through collector shoes.

2022, as in allowing sufficient time for the battery 777s to be tested over Ellesmere Port - Helsby, some further units to be built, and (possibly) a charging point to be installed at Wrexham Central ?

 

[B&I]

Does anyone know whether trauns carrying diesel tanks will be allowed round the Liverpool loop in regular service ? I have heard talk of fire regulations preventing this, but I don't k9

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does anyone know whether trauns carrying diesel tanks will be allowed round the Liverpool loop in regular service ? I have heard talk of fire regulations preventing this, but I don't k9

The Network Rail MPVs are allowed (actually running on diesel with exhaust scrubbers in place, though they still niff), though those of course aren't passenger trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

2022, as in allowing sufficient time for the battery 777s to be tested over Ellesmere Port - Helsby, some further units to be built, and (possibly) a charging point to be installed at Wrexham Central ?

That would make a lot of sense. The niche 230s seem to be slotting into is "we want something reasonably priced for about 10 years' use" - that's the Marston Vale too - no point in buying a short-vehicle Stadler FLIRT (about the only other thing on the market that would have suited, as nobody makes 2x20m DMUs any more, though I'd imagine you could at higher cost possibly have freed up 3 x Class 150 from Northern by building 3 more 2-car 23m DMUs of some description) when it'll get new units and probably platform extensions allowing 2x23m when EWR is built.

 

[B&I]

The Network Rail MPVs are allowed (actually running on diesel with exhaust scrubbers in place, though they still niff), though those of course aren't passenger trains.

Yes, and it is dicing with suffocation to be standing on the platform at James Street when one of those comes through. I was however wondering whether an exception is made for.maintenance trains, or whether there is any general ban on diesels in the tunnel in regular service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, and it is dicing with suffocation to be standing on the platform at James Street when one of those comes through. I was however wondering whether an exception is made for.maintenance trains, or whether there is any general ban on diesels in the tunnel in regular service.

They niff, but they are *nowhere near* as bad as Birmingham New St with a Voyager idling away, which actually makes me feel like I want to puke and must be a massive problem to anyone who has serious asthma.

 

[B&I]

They niff, but they are *nowhere near* as bad as Birmingham New St with a Voyager idling away, which actually makes me feel like I want to puke and must be a massive problem to anyone who has serious asthma.

True, and at least the maintenance trains are relatively rare visitors to the Liverpool loop

 

[The_Engineer]

Deleted

 

[The_Engineer]

It's now being stated on Wikipedia that the (230s, by implication) will generally run on battery power only, with the diesel engines only present as backup, which strikes me as someone having great faith in their batteries.

No - the Class 230s on order for W&B are diesel powered primarily with battery as a secondary power source. The main reason for the battery is to allow for recovery of braking energy and to allow the diesel engine to be selectively turned off at certain points by GPRS. This allows the diesel engines to be turned off at termini stations and allow battery powered departure. How extensively this feature will be used remains to be seen, probably not at every station...…. Viva Rail's website gives the true details.

 

[jamesst]

The Loop was originally signalled for 30tph, but I believe the 1990s resignalling reduced it slightly. But I believe it's nowhere near capacity, presently running at 14tph.

But I similarly just can't see 230s going there (if nothing else there aren't enough on order to do it with a maintenance spare). The 230s will tide us over for 10 years or so before a follow on order of 777s with batteries or a diesel power module take over making it a proper part of Merseyrail.

With modern signalling constraints IE double blocking at certain signals etc the loop can't actually take much more than it does now without having a severe effect on existing services.

 

[urbophile]

When the Halton curve opens it will make possible through trains between North Wales and Liverpool Lime Street. Merseyrail is essentially, and works best as, an inner-suburban/urban metro system. Wouldn't the best way to deal with Bidston-Wrexham be to electrify as far as Heswall or Neston (the limit of suburban Merseyside) and integrate that part of the line into the Wirral line at Merseyrail frequencies? The reminder of the line would then work more effectively, and possibly at a 30 minute frequency, as a connecting shuttle.

 

[B&I]

With modern signalling constraints IE double blocking at certain signals etc the loop can't actually take much more than it does now without having a severe effect on existing services.

At some point in the future, probably shortly after trains have been made obsolete by solar-powered jetpacks, capacity on the loop should be increased by a new westbound tunnel via Moorfields to James Street platform 2, and a spur connecting that and the existing loop to Edge Hill (perhaps via the Victoria tunnel and a statio near the Royal hospital). Roughly half the Wirral services could run round the existing loop as happens presently, while the remainder would run through to / from the east and take over the existing stopping services into Lime Street high level.

 

[B&I]

When the Halton curve opens it will make possible through trains between North Wales and Liverpool Lime Street. Merseyrail is essentially, and works best as, an inner-suburban/urban metro system. Wouldn't the best way to deal with Bidston-Wrexham be to electrify as far as Heswall or Neston (the limit of suburban Merseyside) and integrate that part of the line into the Wirral line at Merseyrail frequencies? The reminder of the line would then work more effectively, and possibly at a 30 minute frequency, as a connecting shuttle.

If you took this approach, for the extra distance involved, Shotton would be a better change point given the extra connections available. (Though by circumscribing Merseyrail's field of operation so tightly, you end up.with orphan services like Ormskirk-Preston and Kirkby-Wigan which are too far from other major cities for anyone else to bother with.)

Alternatively, re-open Chester-Dee Marsh (another of my pet projects) via stations at Blacon and near Chester University, run Liverpool-Heswall-Chester services by that route, and use the 230s and their successors on a Chester-Dee Marsh-Wrexham service with interchange with Merseyrail at Hawarden Junction or whatever replaces it. I have long suspected that the stations between Shotton and Wrexham would send at least as much traffic to Chester as they do to Liverpool, and a Chester-mid Wirral service would do good business as well.

 

[8H]

When the Halton curve opens it will make possible through trains between North Wales and Liverpool Lime Street. Merseyrail is essentially, and works best as, an inner-suburban/urban metro system. Wouldn't the best way to deal with Bidston-Wrexham be to electrify as far as Heswall or Neston (the limit of suburban Merseyside) and integrate that part of the line into the Wirral line at Merseyrail frequencies? The reminder of the line would then work more effectively, and possibly at a 30 minute frequency, as a connecting shuttle.

What is needed is a through route from North Wales to Wirral and “over the water” which is fast enough to attract people out of cars. Halton curve isn’t that, although it is a very welcome move. Either the semi fast Wrexham Bidston service goes some way toward it, or you reinstate some/all of the lost four track formation from Hooton to Birkenhead to achieve a fast timing. Forty odd minutes for approx 18 miles to Chester for example isn’t fast. North Wales and Shropshire into Wirral is not a simple suburban crawl and was only made so from March 1967, there is suppressed inter urban traffic too which has no outlet due to rotten timings end to end. You don’t put all your eggs into a basket marked Liverpool and think you have achieved serving the whole “city region” neither do you hand Wrexham Bidston wholesale into Merseyrail without the disadvantage of maintaining the all stations snail pace service ethos there as well.

 

[tbtc]

One of the first rules of planning – how to delay/defer certain tasks so that you can tackle various big jobs at once.



If you can wait for a route to be electrified at the same time as renewing the signals then that’s the perfect time to remodel a junction or build an additional couple of platforms. Doing everything at once is much easier than piecemeal upgrades. Sometimes that means a temporary bodge so that something can have another five years life squeezed out of it so that it’s ready for renewal at the same time as something else.



If you want to give the Borderlands branchline to Merseyrail, in the first instance you give it separate stock to the rest of the W&B franchise, you allow sufficient additional trains to permit a frequency upgrade (so that you can prove whether a “one fast, one slow” approach works)…



…but instead of shelling out on new units with a forty year life ahead of them, you get some redundant stock that can be cheaply tarted up for the next five/ten years, just enough to tide you over until Merseyrail have had their 777s running smoothly so that they are confident about ordering some more of them for the “nice to have” extensions beyond their current borders.



(don’t run before you can walk, don’t try to run round the “loop” just yet, grow the passenger demand gradually, increase the frequency to Bidston with the 230s before you start getting ambitious about a through service to Birkenhead with one additional 230, don’t try running into central Liverpool any time soon)



So, flash forward to the mid 2020s, the Borderlands line has seen enough of a Great Leap Forward in passenger numbers (due to the frequency increase), the next step is a through service to Liverpool, this is just about when the 777s have bedded in and thoughts turn to “should we exercise that option for some more of them and maybe look at extensions beyond Elesmere Port/ Ormskirk etc using bi-mode 778s”.



Hey presto, a through service from Lime Street to Wrexham becomes a cost effective option, given that the figures have been fixed so that the “do nothing” option will require you to order new DMUs to replace the tired 230s – so it becomes cheaper to order a handful of additional 777s from the follow-on order that is happening anyway (than it will be to order a tiny batch of pure-diesel DMUs to replace the microfleet of 230s).



This makes a pleasant change from most “planning” on the fragmented railway – e.g. finding the money from the infrastructure to build a station when there isn’t capacity on the line for sufficient services to stop there (or sufficient seats on the trains that do stop there to attract passengers), because this comes from a different budget to the “operational” one and it’s a case of Spend The Money Now Or Lose It. Hence the reason we build stations like East Midlands Parkway and Low Moor that the TOC can't cope with.



Essentially, its another one of those examples of where temporary trains – the 230s – can be the answer for five/ten years (without the expense of building brand new pure-DMUs that may struggle for a life come the 2030s/2040s) – enough new capacity to get through the squeeze of the medium term and then require replacement once we've made our minds up about "electrification v batteries" in ten years time.

 

[Holly]

No - the Class 230s on order for W&B are diesel powered primarily with battery as a secondary power source. The main reason for the battery is to allow for recovery of braking energy and to allow the diesel engine to be selectively turned off at certain points by GPRS. This allows the diesel engines to be turned off at termini stations and allow battery powered departure. How extensively this feature will be used remains to be seen, probably not at every station...…. Viva Rail's website gives the true details.

Given that the 230s are rebuilt London Underground rolling stock, it seems a shame not to leave the collector shoes in place for use to recharge the batteries.