Implications of no level access platforms for penalty fares

[Justin Smith]

I found out today that I was unable to buy a ticket on the train from Chapeltown using our Family Railcard. The guard told me there may not be a ticket office but there is a ticket machine so I must buy my ticket before boarding, or at least get a "permit to travel" and then buy my ticket on the train. This was the first time I had heard of this as I always buy my tickets on the train when travelling from Chap and have never had a problem before. Best skirt over my less than impressed reaction and get to the point of this thread.
We always travel north from Chapeltown station having parked on the road west of the station then walked down the path from the north end of the station. But Chap only has one ticket machine and that is on the other (southbound) platform. At Chap that involves quite a trek right to the end of the P/F, down a long flight of stairs, round the road, then up another long flight of stairs, then all the way back again to catch the train. Obviously that is an absolute PITA which also requires getting to the station earlier, plus having to add time on in case there was a queue for the machine, making it an even bigger PITA.
I am sure all that would cut no ice with the bean counters and many train guards.
BUT.....
What about people with restricted mobility ? It changes from being a PITA to a significant problem. Those who struggle with stairs would have an even longer trek round which also involves walking the full length of the large and busy Asda carpark (which has no pedestrian route). So, does this situation mean they Northern Rail are in some way contravening the disability discrimination act ?

 

[Watershed]

Firstly, the Disability Discrimination Act hasn't applied for some time now - it's the Equality Act 2010. The principle remains broadly the same though; reasonable adjustments must be made in the provision of certain services (such as public transport) for people with disabilities.

The industry does this reasonably well, insofar as people whose disabilities prevent them from buying a ticket before travel are explicitly excluded from being penalised. They are able to buy a ticket onboard without penalty (well, at least they can buy a walkup ticket with any applicable Off-Peak/Railcard discount, even if they can't avail of Advances that may have been available if buying before travel). However, such 'easements' only apply to those who have disabilities that prevent them from using the facilities, and not the wider public.

Clearly it's not a very customer-friendly attitude to inconvenience people on pain of some form of penalty; indeed, I can't think of many other railways around the world that are as stingy when it comes to providing TVMs. But Northern certainly don't appear to be in breach of the Equality Act in their policies here.

 

[Gaelan]

Somewhat besides the point, but you should be able to get eTickets for most journeys from Chapeltown, which can be done (if you have a smartphone) on your way to the station or on the platform.

 

[Justin Smith]

Firstly, the Disability Discrimination Act hasn't applied for some time now - it's the Equality Act 2010. The principle remains broadly the same though; reasonable adjustments must be made in the provision of certain services (such as public transport) for people with disabilities.

The industry does this reasonably well, insofar as people whose disabilities prevent them from buying a ticket before travel are explicitly excluded from being penalised. They are able to buy a ticket onboard without penalty (well, at least they can buy a walkup ticket with any applicable Off-Peak/Railcard discount, even if they can't avail of Advances that may have been available if buying before travel). However, such 'easements' only apply to those who have disabilities that prevent them from using the facilities, and not the wider public.

Clearly it's not a very customer-friendly attitude to inconvenience people on pain of some form of penalty; indeed, I can't think of many other railways around the world that are as stingy when it comes to providing TVMs. But Northern certainly don't appear to be in breach of the Equality Act in their policies here.

Who is to define what a disability is ?
I could have sprained my ankle the day before ? ! ?
And I am only half joking, it is perfectly possible that I may have done.

 

[alistairlees]

Who is to define what a disability is ?
I could have sprained my ankle the day before ? ! ?
And I am only half joking, it is perfectly possible that I may have done.

That’s an injury, not a disability.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That’s an injury, not a disability.

This is rather a gap in disability legislation, to be honest - it doesn't tend to recognise temporary disability (e.g. it'd make sense for someone on crutches with a broken leg to be allowed a temporary Blue Badge). However one would hope the railway would have a bit of sense here, so if you physically couldn't reach the TVM you'd be sold a ticket.

 

[Starmill]

This is rather a gap in disability legislation, to be honest - it doesn't tend to recognise temporary disability (e.g. it'd make sense for someone on crutches with a broken leg to be allowed a temporary Blue Badge). However one would hope the railway would have a bit of sense here, so if you physically couldn't reach the TVM you'd be sold a ticket.

While this is true, the train operator doesn't have standing by themselves to say if someone is disabled or not, so the practical effect is...

Somewhat besides the point, but you should be able to get eTickets for most journeys from Chapeltown, which can be done (if you have a smartphone) on your way to the station or on the platform.

This is the best solution. Otherwise unfortunately you'll need to make the walk, unless this is physically impossible for you.

 

[Justin Smith]

This [using a Smart phone to buy an E ticket] is the best solution. Otherwise unfortunately you'll need to make the walk, unless this is physically impossible for you.

I do not have a smart phone and I do not want one, I want to be able to get away from the internet (and I think there is something in "digital dementia").

This is rather a gap in disability legislation, to be honest - it doesn't tend to recognise temporary disability (e.g. it'd make sense for someone on crutches with a broken leg to be allowed a temporary Blue Badge). However one would hope the railway would have a bit of sense here, so if you physically couldn't reach the TVM you'd be sold a ticket.

Absolutely, and how does that phrase go ? Something like "not all disabilities are visible" ?
Basically I do not think Northern are in the right here whilst ever they only have a ticket machine on the south bound platform at Chapeltown !

 

[alistairlees]

I do not have a smart phone and I do not want one, I want to be able to get away from the internet (and I think there is something in "digital dementia").

You are using the internet right now though? If you have a printer you can buy your tickets from your PC and print them at home before you travel.

 

[Justin Smith]

You are using the internet right now though? If you have a printer you can buy your tickets from your PC and print them at home before you travel.

Thanks for your advice, I mean that genuinely, but I do not have a printer at home. I have no room for one and it'd get used so infrequently (because I use my printer at work) the print cartridges keep drying out and blocking up.
But I thought the railways were not supposed to discriminate against anyone, incl those who have no internet access ?
At the end of the day they are supposed to be encouraging people to use the railways, both because it is good for the railways, and it is contributing to the Nett Zero agenda (but please don't get me onto that, why, for instance, are Nett Zero zealots against HS2 ? An electrified railway encouraging people out of their cars and off planes ? They should be volunteering on it for free ! ).

 

[Darandio]

But I thought the railways were not supposed to discriminate against anyone, incl those who have no internet access ?

I'm fairly certain that having no smartphone or internet access isn't a protected characteristic.

 

[Llanigraham]

Who is to define what a disability is ?
I could have sprained my ankle the day before ? ! ?
And I am only half joking, it is perfectly possible that I may have done.

A sprained ankle is not a disability, it is an injury, therefore it is not relevant to this discussion.

I do not have a smart phone and I do not want one, I want to be able to get away from the internet (and I think there is something in "digital dementia").

But you are using a computer and have a printer, so you could quite easily purchase tickets and print them out

Absolutely, and how does that phrase go ? Something like "not all disabilities are visible" ?
Basically I do not think Northern are in the right here whilst ever they only have a ticket machine on the south bound platform at Chapeltown !

Where the ticket maching is is nit relevant, and if a truly disabled person is unable to get to it then they are quite within their rights to purchase later.
As the Guard said you should have got a Promise to Pay if the ticket you wanted wasn't available.

 

[Starmill]

Thanks for your advice, I mean that genuinely, but I do not have a printer at home. I have no room for one and it'd get used so infrequently (because I use my printer at work) the print cartridges keep drying out and blocking up.
But I thought the railways were not supposed to discriminate against anyone, incl those who have no internet access ?
At the end of the day they are supposed to be encouraging people to use the railways, both because it is good for the railways, and it is contributing to the Nett Zero agenda (but please don't get me onto that, why, for instance, are Nett Zero zealots against HS2 ? An electrified railway encouraging people out of their cars and off planes ? They should be volunteering on it for free ! ).

At the end of the day, Northern's line under these circumstances is that you walk to the ticket machine, no matter how far away it is or how long it takes you. If you don't like it, you don't travel. If you board without a ticket they're likely to at some point charge you a Penalty Fare, or have you prosecuted for not showing a ticket, or even worse trying to avoid paying for your journey.

Yes, I quite agree this is wrong on a very fundamental level, but if you came here for advice I think you've been given it whether you like it or not. We can't tell you what you want to hear if it's not true. If first-class customer care and service were what you were expecting then I'm afraid you were likely to be looking in the wrong place. All you can do if you don't like the reality is write a complaint. This will change nothing, although that's not to say it's not worthwhile.

 

[TUC]

Who is to define what a disability is ?
I could have sprained my ankle the day before ? ! ?
And I am only half joking, it is perfectly possible that I may have done.

Sorry, but that is the kind of attitude that makes it hard for people with real disabilities to be taken seriously and get the right support, because people with trivial issues misuse the system.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry, but that is the kind of attitude that makes it hard for people with real disabilities to be taken seriously and get the right support, because people with trivial issues misuse the system.

How's it not real if it prevents the OP reaching the TVM?

If it doesn't prevent them reaching and using the TVM then they need to go there, regardless of the form of the disability.

 

[30907]

Leaving specific disability issues aside, as Northern choose not to provide a TVM on the northbound platform, AND advertise the station as having stepfree access, I would argue that there is no reasonable opportunity to buy before boarding, and therefore the OP should have been allowed to use their Railcard.

I recall similar discussions Re Frizinghall and Cononley (distance and level crossing respectively) when PFs were introduced in Airedale - which were resolved fairly quickly by installing additional TVMs.

 

[Snow1964]

My local station, Bradford-on-Avon has same problem, part time ticket office and one TVM on southbound platform. Nothing to issue or collect tickets from on the busier platform to Bath and Bristol which has step free access.

If want step free from ticket facilities, go about 100m in opposite direction along station approach to a roundabout, then along Frome Road over the railway about 200m, enter Barton Close, then to far end of Barton Close, then down a zig zag path to platform. A nice stroll for those with limited mobility of about 400-500m.
And as a bonus, the wheelchair facilities are usually advertised in a different platform zone to step free entrance, so can add bit more distance along the platform.

 

[Class800]

Difficult one really. I do hope any TOC would genuinely be understanding if someone is physically disabled eg walking stick or wheelchair. Age is a protected characteristic too so that can gey complex. To be fair I think some TOCs do take disabled issues seriously. I wrote to swr a couple of years ago about the issue with tvms touch screen being very heavy touch so you can get double letters or no letters on entering booking reference for collection. They responded positively and not only they but some other tocs too have amended the coding so that you can delete one letter from reference number rather than start again. That's been really positive for me as someone with asperger and dyspraxia so I don't have to take 12 attempts to get reference number in and even them sometimes have to go to ticket office where there is one. But as we see here there's still attitude progress to be made.

 

[Justin Smith]

Justin Smith said:
Who is to define what a disability is ?
I could have sprained my ankle the day before ? ! ?
And I am only half joking, it is perfectly possible that I may have done.

Sorry, but that is the kind of attitude that makes it hard for people with real disabilities to be taken seriously and get the right support, because people with trivial issues misuse the system.

Just because a sprained ankle is (hopefully) a temporary disabilkity does not make it any less of a disability and therefore I do not understand your point.
Whilst the person has the sprained ankle, or whatever, it is just as disabling as someone with a permanent issue. How is it not so ?

Leaving specific disability issues aside, as Northern choose not to provide a TVM on the northbound platform, AND advertise the station as having stepfree access, I would argue that there is no reasonable opportunity to buy before boarding, and therefore the OP should have been allowed to use their Railcard.

I recall similar discussions Re Frizinghall and Cononley (distance and level crossing respectively) when PFs were introduced in Airedale - which were resolved fairly quickly by installing additional TVMs.

I am going to write to them and this piece of info is valuable, so thanks.
If I ever forget to buy my ticket in advance or cannot for some reason (e.g. an accident means I get to the station too late) I will dispute the penalty fare and use this argument.
I do not think any reasonable person would dispute that if they are going to have penalty fares from Chapeltown, they should have a ticket M/C on each platform.

On a more general note I have always remembered a comment (from Tony Benn actually) on Any Questiosn back in the 1970s, it's funny how the odd thing sticks in one's mind. They were talking about faster train services and he pointed out that making the train a few minutes faster only to have to wait a few minutes in a queue for a ticket (or walk way out of your way to get one from a machine and have to get there a few minutes earlier in case there is a queue for that M/C......) rather negates the extra speed !

 

[AlterEgo]

Just because a sprained ankle is (hopefully) a temporary disabilkity does not make it any less of a disability and therefore I do not understand your point.
Whilst the person has the sprained ankle, or whatever, it is just as disabling as someone with a permanent issue. How is it not so ?

The important thing is that your sore foot is not a protected characteristic and isn't a disability.

 

[BenS123]

Just because a sprained ankle is (hopefully) a temporary disabilkity does not make it any less of a disability and therefore I do not understand your point.
Whilst the person has the sprained ankle, or whatever, it is just as disabling as someone with a permanent issue. How is it not so ?

Under the Equality Act 2010, a disability is a mental or physical impairment with a substantial and long-lasting negative effect.

• ‘substantial’ is more than minor or trivial, eg it takes much longer than it usually would to complete a daily task like getting dressed
• ‘long-term’ means 12 months or more, eg a breathing condition that develops as a result of a lung infection

Definition of disability under the Equality Act 2010

You’re disabled under the Equality Act 2010 if you have a physical or mental impairment that has a 'substantial' and 'long-term' negative effect on your ability to do daily activities

www.gov.uk

Therefore in the eyes of the law a sprained ankle is not a disability as it will not be long term.

 

[LondonExile]

Just because a sprained ankle is (hopefully) a temporary disabilkity does not make it any less of a disability and therefore I do not understand your point.
Whilst the person has the sprained ankle, or whatever, it is just as disabling as someone with a permanent issue. How is it not so ?

Because Section 6(1)(b) of the Equality Act 2010 defines disabilities as impairments which have a "substantial and long-term adverse effect", and the courts have generally held "long-term" to mean at least a year.

You may think this distinction is nonsense - someone with no use of their legs at the moment, but expected to regain full function in a few months is just as unable to do certain things without adaptations as someone who has a permanent condition, but that's how the law is written currently, and so that is the minimum standard companies are held to.

It's a political matter of persuading your MP etc., to advocate for a change in the law, or a PR matter to persuade companies to go above and beyond the statutory requirements.

 

[Gaelan]

I'll note that this distinction is quite specific to UK law - the Americans With Disabilities Act has no limitations on duration of the disability, and indeed my home state is quite happy to issue temporary "blue badges" for a few months to someone, for example, recovering from a broken leg.

In any case, the legal situation is only marginally relevant - if someone's circumstances, however temporary, mean they'll have more trouble than the average person accessing the TVM, the decent thing to do is clearly to allow them to buy a ticket on the train. And yes, this is a problem simply solved by placing a TVM on every platform or only enforcing pay-before-you-board on platforms with a TVM.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Surely the simple answer is that if someone does have limited mobility, then they would be allowed to buy with the railcard onboard, but as OP is not claiming that, that doesn't apply to them? Any arguments about level access and restricted mobility are moot points being used to muddy the waters unless you are actually impacted by them surely?

 

[etr221]

Just been having a look - at the National Rail Enquiries station page, and on Google Maps Streetview - and note two things: (1) Chapeltown is effectively two stations (up and down) - it is not possible to get from one to other without exiting the station and walking along the public highway; and (2) neither station info, nor signs visible on Streetview (image dated Aug 2022), tell me which side the TVM is...

So I would argue that if I enter the station, not passing a sign saying that I should use a different entrance to buy a ticket, on the TVM-less side, I effectively do not have the opportunity to buy a ticket...

And I wonder what was was done in the way of risk assessments on getting from one platform to another (either using the stairs or step free access routes (which require passing through Asda's car park - and what is in whatever agreement for use of this by rail users?)...

 

[Watershed]

Just been having a look - at the National Rail Enquiries station page, and on Google Maps Streetview - and note two things: (1) Chapeltown is effectively two stations (up and down) - it is not possible to get from one to other without exiting the station and walking along the public highway; and (2) neither station info, nor signs visible on Streetview (image dated Aug 2022), tell me which side the TVM is...

So I would argue that if I enter the station, not passing a sign saying that I should use a different entrance to buy a ticket, on the TVM-less side, I effectively do not have the opportunity to buy a ticket...

And I wonder what was was done in the way of risk assessments on getting from one platform to another (either using the stairs or step free access routes (which require passing through Asda's car park - and what is in whatever agreement for use of this by rail users?)...

I doubt any risk assessment whatsoever has been undertaken, although it's doubtful whether Northern would have any legal responsibility if (for instance) someone were to injure themselves whilst walking along the highway to get to the TVM.

There needs to be much better signage about where ticket machines are located, though. Of course, again, sensible railways abroad place ticket machines in such a location that you can't miss them, and have enough of them that you don't have to go on a wild goose chase of the local neighbourhood to find it.

The last time I went there, Kiveton Park station (which is not actually located in the village of Kiveton Park, whereas Kiveton Bridge is - confusing!) only had TVMs on the Sheffield-bound platform. You have to use the level crossing to get to the other platform, so if you're travelling towards Retford or Lincoln, you'd have to arrive with a lot of time to spare to guarantee that you'd even be able to access the TVM (particularly if there's a train due towards Sheffield a few minutes before your service), and then have enough time left to buy your ticket and cross back to the Retford-bound platform before the barriers lowered.

If you arrived at the station 10 minutes before departure and the barriers were already shut, I struggle to see how that could be considered as having ticketing facilities, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Penalty Fares (or worse) issued in those circumstances.

 

[Justin Smith]

Under the Equality Act 2010, a disability is a mental or physical impairment with a substantial and long-lasting negative effect.

Definition of disability under the Equality Act 2010

You’re disabled under the Equality Act 2010 if you have a physical or mental impairment that has a 'substantial' and 'long-term' negative effect on your ability to do daily activities

www.gov.uk

Therefore in the eyes of the law a sprained ankle is not a disability as it will not be long term.

The law may be an ass in this case, but in practicval terms how would Northen expect someone with a sprained ankle to access the ticket M/C on the other platform. Oh yes, and also get back again ?

Just been having a look - at the National Rail Enquiries station page, and on Google Maps Streetview - and note two things: (1) Chapeltown is effectively two stations (up and down) - it is not possible to get from one to other without exiting the station and walking along the public highway; and (2) neither station info, nor signs visible on Streetview (image dated Aug 2022), tell me which side the TVM is...

So I would argue that if I enter the station, not passing a sign saying that I should use a different entrance to buy a ticket, on the TVM-less side, I effectively do not have the opportunity to buy a ticket...

And I wonder what was was done in the way of risk assessments on getting from one platform to another (either using the stairs or step free access routes (which require passing through Asda's car park - and what is in whatever agreement for use of this by rail users?)...

Very good points.

 

[Haywain]

Just been having a look - at the National Rail Enquiries station page, and on Google Maps Streetview - and note two things: (1) Chapeltown is effectively two stations (up and down) - it is not possible to get from one to other without exiting the station and walking along the public highway; and (2) neither station info, nor signs visible on Streetview (image dated Aug 2022), tell me which side the TVM is...

So I would argue that if I enter the station, not passing a sign saying that I should use a different entrance to buy a ticket, on the TVM-less side, I effectively do not have the opportunity to buy a ticket...

And I wonder what was was done in the way of risk assessments on getting from one platform to another (either using the stairs or step free access routes (which require passing through Asda's car park - and what is in whatever agreement for use of this by rail users?)...

Chapeltown is a long way from unique in the means of moving from one platform to the other and I can't see that the railway has any responsibility for risk assessments on use of the public highway, that being a matter for the local authority. However, I agree that there doesn't appear to be any signage on the location of ticketing facilities and that is a shortfall, particularly as the requisite penalty fare notice can be found adjacent to the entrance to platform 2.

 

[Justin Smith]

Surely the simple answer is that if someone does have limited mobility, then they would be allowed to buy with the railcard onboard, but as OP is not claiming that, that doesn't apply to them? Any arguments about level access and restricted mobility are moot points being used to muddy the waters unless you are actually impacted by them surely?

Correct, but, to me, the general principle applies that requiring someone to visit the machine on the other platform when travelling north (bearing in mind how awkard and time consuming it is), is bordering on unreasonable.

Chapeltown is a long way from unique in the means of moving from one platform to the other and I can't see that the railway has any responsibility for risk assessments on use of the public highway, that being a matter for the local authority. However, I agree that there doesn't appear to be any signage on the location of ticketing facilities and that is a shortfall, particularly as the requisite penalty fare notice can be found adjacent to the entrance to platform 2.

I am less concerned about walking next to teh road on teh south end of Chap and more concernmed that "step free route" requires walking the full length of a busy car park which has no foootpath. I have never been 100% happy about having to do that when I get back from a trip. In fact, statistically, it may even be safer to walk across the tracks than do that. So, if NR and Northern want to be consistent in their attitude to safety at all costs they should make that unnecessary, one way or the other. Requiring people to get over to the other platform (and back) to visit a machine is quite patently not doing that.
Actually, as an aside, statistically speaking, stairs are quite dangerous ! I am not joking about that BTW.

 

[Haywain]

I am less concerned about walking next to teh road on teh south end of Chap and more concernmed that "step free route" requires walking the full length of a busy car park which has no foootpath. I have never been 100% happy about having to do that when I get back from a trip. In fact, statistically, it may even be safer to walk across the tracks than do that. So, if NR and Northern want to be consistent in their attitude to safety at all costs they should make that unnecessary, one way or the other. Requiring people to get over to the other platform (and back) to visit a machine is quite patently not doing that.
Actually, as an aside, statistically speaking, stairs are quite dangerous ! I am not joking about that BTW.

Given that rail services in that area are heavily subsidised by local authorities, who have been significant drivers of station improvements, you might get more traction by taking this up with your local authority and councillors.