Poor platform allocation of Crewe & Chester trains at Piccadilly

[LOL The Irony]

Recently, I found myself using Manchester Piccadilly quite a bit and have found out, to my chagrin, that the Crewe stopper is allocated to platform 8, in front of the Chester via Altrincham. With them both being scheduled to depart so close together and both being Northern trains, the Chester train is locked until the Crewe train has departed. This leaves very little time to load the Chester train, especially if the Crewe has a late departure. Now who in their right (wrong) mind has decided that this is a brilliant idea?

 

[artemic]

The platform allox at Piccadilly have always seemed to involve a circus of the Crewe, Chester and Stoke departures, now including the new de-Southported Alderley Edge (I'm not sure exactly why but it has certainly been that way for a few years now)
At the moment the :46 Stoke sits behind the "new" :38 Alderley Edge on p5 (and sometimes the :30 South Wales makes a cameo!), and the :10 CLC Chester appears to sit behind the :06 Crewe on p8.
I know from experience that the Chester used to sit in front of the Stoke train on p9, even when another platform often seemed free, although in this case the Crewe had p5 to itself!
Inevitably the doors to the rear unit are opened at best immediately after departure of the front train, but are often left right up until (and past) the booked departure.

The real issue I suppose isn't the allocations themselves (which are mainly unavoidable, someone's going to have to double up at some point) but Northern's habit of locking out units - particularly when the staff of the rear train only appear post-departure time!
I can understand why: on the rare occasion that the rear unit is unlocked (and there was a period where they seemed to trial leaving them), someone does inevitably get on the wrong one and end up one or two hours out of the way - but it really doesn't help everyone else!
There must be a better way to signpost front and rear units - if not A/B/C, then something else more than the single cursory announcement and inconsistent display of 'Front train' on the platform screens.

 

[Danfilm007]

The real issue I suppose isn't the allocations themselves (which are mainly unavoidable, someone's going to have to double up at some point) but Northern's habit of locking out units - particularly when the staff of the rear train only appear post-departure time!
I can understand why: on the rare occasion that the rear unit is unlocked (and there was a period where they seemed to trial leaving them), someone does inevitably get on the wrong one and end up one or two hours out of the way - but it really doesn't help everyone else!
There must be a better way to signpost front and rear units - if not A/B/C, then something else more than the single cursory announcement and inconsistent display of 'Front train' on the platform screens.

I use the CLC Chester service from Man Picc regularly and there are A LOT of people who confuse the Crewe and Chester trains!..

Perhaps not helped now Avanti need 3 platforms again in Picc and not 1 but 10 is often free. You'd hope they could use all empty platforms but oh well. It was great when it was on 11 a few weeks ago and you could actually board and sit down!

 

[185]

This is a vast improvement on the 4-Train-Jenga one signaller would play in 2005.

But still if there's empty platforms, and no possessions, and the sole reason is reducing the changing of points - then the trains should be reallocated. I've just opened real time trains and traksy and unsurprisingly Platform 12 has not been used for 2-3 hours. In addition, allowing TPE using the station to park those (noisy) locos and coaches for hours - which are rarely ever in passenger service has to also end. Should be a maximum layover at Man Picc and Man Airport of 40 mins for London trains and 20 mins for everything else.

 

[Danfilm007]

This is a vast improvement on the 4-Train-Jenga one signaller would play in 2005.

But still if there's empty platforms, and no possessions, and the sole reason is reducing the changing of points - then the trains should be reallocated. I've just opened real time trains and traksy and unsurprisingly Platform 12 has not been used for 2-3 hours. In addition, allowing TPE using the station to park those (noisy) locos and coaches for hours - which are rarely ever in passenger service has to also end. Should be a maximum layover at Man Picc and Man Airport of 40 mins for London trains and 20 mins for everything else.

The trouble is the CLC trains have a layover of 40ish mins so where would they go? Think routing out of MP can be a lottery at the best of times which doesn't really help keeping things on time in peak IME

 

[Thomas6187]

I've just opened real time trains and traksy and unsurprisingly Platform 12 has not been used for 2-3 hours.

Platform 12 is occupied from 08:28 until 1718 with a Northern 331

 

[jfollows]

And platforms 9, 10, 11 & 12 all share a single track so their capacity may be limited by this - this was changed when platforms 13 & 14 were extended which chopped off the original tracks out of platforms 10, 11 & 12.

 

[artemic]

This is a vast improvement on the 4-Train-Jenga one signaller would play in 2005.

But still if there's empty platforms, and no possessions, and the sole reason is reducing the changing of points - then the trains should be reallocated. I've just opened real time trains and traksy and unsurprisingly Platform 12 has not been used for 2-3 hours. In addition, allowing TPE using the station to park those (noisy) locos and coaches for hours - which are rarely ever in passenger service has to also end. Should be a maximum layover at Man Picc and Man Airport of 40 mins for London trains and 20 mins for everything else.

Platform 10 is often free (it is rather underused - once per hour by TfW, for 15 minutes) but it appears the Chester and Crewe trains arrive while the TfW is nominally occupying the platform.
Trying to fix that would probably involve a retiming of the Northern services (if that would even be possible!) - as mentioned 9/10/11/12 all share a single entry/exit track which doesn't help.
The Buxton service tends to stop over in 11 for extended periods of time (~40 minutes) which rules it out for most of a given hour.
A maximum layover might help but in reality all these trains would have to go somewhere, as many are timed to sit in Piccadilly after a round trip.

Platform 12 is occupied from 08:28 until 1718 with a Northern 331

That unit is particularly poorly utilised - although it is nice to have a 331 on the Stoke morning and evening peak extras, it then sits around in P12 doing nothing all day.
It is a little bit surprising nothing better could be found to do with it but I suppose you can't strand a driver in a random siding from 8am until 5pm...
P12 is a really poor passenger experience but perhaps better than having to lock out trains.

 

[jfollows]

That unit is particularly poorly utilised - although it is nice to have a 331 on the Stoke morning and evening peak extras, it then sits around in P12 doing nothing all day.
It is a little bit surprising nothing better could be found to do with it but I suppose you can't strand a driver in a random siding from 8am until 5pm...
P12 is a really poor passenger experience but perhaps better than having to lock out trains.

I think the unit in platform 12 is effectively a spare/substitute set for the day, so it serves a purpose. I have recently left platform 12 on a 331 in the middle of the day on an Alderley Edge working, I believe the set in platform 12 was used for this and it'd have been back from its jaunt to Alderley Edge in time for its afternoon Stoke working anyway.

 

[artemic]

I think the unit in platform 12 is effectively a spare/substitute set for the day, so it serves a purpose. I have recently left platform 12 on a 331 in the middle of the day on an Alderley Edge working, I believe the set in platform 12 was used for this and it'd have been back from its jaunt to Alderley Edge in time for its afternoon Stoke working anyway.

That wouldn't surprise me, as the units do also shuffle around sometimes - the evening peak isn't always the same as the morning one.
It's just a shame that it blocks up a platform in doing so - whether there is really anywhere else to put it without sacrificing that I don't know.
Ultimately this and the TfW means that the 'south side' of Piccadilly ends up with fewer platforms to use than services in an hour, when it could probably squeeze out just enough (in theory) with some shuffling about.

 

[etr221]

The platform allox at Piccadilly have always seemed to involve a circus of the Crewe, Chester and Stoke departures, now including the new de-Southported Alderley Edge (I'm not sure exactly why but it has certainly been that way for a few years now)
At the moment the :46 Stoke sits behind the "new" :38 Alderley Edge on p5 (and sometimes the :30 South Wales makes a cameo!), and the :10 CLC Chester appears to sit behind the :06 Crewe on p8.
I know from experience that the Chester used to sit in front of the Stoke train on p9, even when another platform often seemed free, although in this case the Crewe had p5 to itself!
Inevitably the doors to the rear unit are opened at best immediately after departure of the front train, but are often left right up until (and past) the booked departure.

The real issue I suppose isn't the allocations themselves (which are mainly unavoidable, someone's going to have to double up at some point) but Northern's habit of locking out units - particularly when the staff of the rear train only appear post-departure time!
I can understand why: on the rare occasion that the rear unit is unlocked (and there was a period where they seemed to trial leaving them), someone does inevitably get on the wrong one and end up one or two hours out of the way - but it really doesn't help everyone else!
There must be a better way to signpost front and rear units - if not A/B/C, then something else more than the single cursory announcement and inconsistent display of 'Front train' on the platform screens.

Somewhere (one of the London termini?) I've seen boards deployed saying 'Front train beyond here' - don't if they have such up north.

 

[IceBlue]

Somewhere (one of the London termini?) I've seen boards deployed saying 'Front train beyond here' - don't if they have such up north.

I've seen these used at Waterloo; they're a simple but effective solution, providing the staff are 'on it' in making sure they're the right position.

 

[zwk500]

Somewhere (one of the London termini?) I've seen boards deployed saying 'Front train beyond here' - don't if they have such up north.

Brighton have certainly used such boards before, and I think there's even a planning rule in for the Kent side Victoria not to have departures from the same platform too close together to allow staff to move the boards.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I've seen these used at Waterloo; they're a simple but effective solution, providing the staff are 'on it' in making sure they're the right position.

Quite so. Good old fashioned 'A' frame boards. Top (or 'front') train working at complex termini will always be a part of any train plan, when there are more trains timetabled to arrive/depart in a given time span, than there are physical platforms.

Brighton have certainly used such boards before, and I think there's even a planning rule in for the Kent side Victoria not to have departures from the same platform too close together to allow staff to move the boards.

It was in my time 6 mins at Waterloo, but that's a life time ago, in the days of the old wooden indicator boards above the gate line, and allowed the boards to be reset after the top train had departed and still allow 5 mins or so for passengers to get to their train on the blocks.

 

[edwin_m]

St Pancras EMR platforms have a set of departure screens where the front train "starts". That would be difficult at Piccadilly due to the wide range of unit lengths.

 

[zwk500]

St Pancras EMR platforms have a set of departure screens where the front train "starts". That would be difficult at Piccadilly due to the wide range of unit lengths.

Are these specific for 'First train' departures or just repeater boards along the length of the platform? Must say I've not noticed them when I've got the train from there before ,although I was probably too lazy to walk any length up the platform.

 

[artemic]

Somewhere (one of the London termini?) I've seen boards deployed saying 'Front train beyond here' - don't if they have such up north.

I have certainly never seen these at Piccadilly, perhaps they would be useful but the departures in question are only 4 minutes apart - although the other 'double set' of departures on platform 5 are spaced out by 8 minutes.
It's also not particularly obvious which train is at the front (obviously, the one leaving first - easy for some...) or even if there is one, particularly if said board/train is obscured by everyone waiting for the train in the rear! I suppose the idea then would be to unlock the unit in the rear like everyone else

 

[185]

I think the unit in platform 12 is effectively a spare/substitute set for the day, so it serves a purpose.

It is, and it does. But it belongs parked on the eastern spare just off platform one. Park it right you should to be able to step straight from a saloon door onto the back edge of platform one.

 

[50032]

It is, and it does. But it belongs parked on the eastern spare just off platform one. Park it right you should to be able to step straight from a saloon door onto the back edge of platform one.

Only one problem with that... no OLE in the spur.

 

[cin88]

Speaking as an ex Piccadilly announcer, the platform allocations are the bane of one particular signaller's existence, he has to produce a fresh simplifier every week just to be able to get everything platformed in a manner is more sensible than what the timetable planners would have them doing (P1-5 tend to get the brunt of the changes). There's some night shifts where the announcer on duty spends ages changing all the platform allocations in the CIS, I certainly found it to be the worst part about nights

As for the "front train" situation, in my day the script for the announcer was "The train standing at the departure end of platform x is the xx:xx [TOC] service to x calling at [calling pattern in full]. Please make your way down platform x and board the front train only for the xx:xx [TOC] service to x" Pretty sure that's still the case now as I heard my replacement say the exact same script the other week as I was passing en route to a briefing. They're supposed to announce every single instance of there being a "front train" manually, doesn't always happen of course.

Also yes, they do get quite a bit of confusion over which train is the front, I'd say it accounted for around 1 in every 20 questions asked whenever I was working in the information point. I used to use the CCF screen in there to help explain how it all worked, I found having that to refer to made more sense to people.

 

[plugwash]

That wouldn't surprise me, as the units do also shuffle around sometimes - the evening peak isn't always the same as the morning one.
It's just a shame that it blocks up a platform in doing so

Though it's worth noting that it's a pretty short platform and that platforms 9-12 all share a single acess track

It is, and it does. But it belongs parked on the eastern spare just off platform one. Park it right you should to be able to step straight from a saloon door onto the back edge of platform one.

Still, you probablly wouldn't want or be allowed to load passengers with it in that position, so you would have to do a shunt move before taking it as a spare.

 

[ayubdaud]

The Crewe train (xx.40-xx.06) could easily move from P8 to P10 throughout most of the day, the problem being though that it would then interact with the Crewe stopper via Airport departing P9 xx.36 and with the TFW arrival P10 xx.11. All TPR compliant but I would guess it would be better performance wise to retain the parallel moves since the Crewe train arrives/departs via the fasts. If you look as well at the Crewe arrival, is it closely followed by other arrivals/departures all on pretty much minimum headway/junction margin values.

 

[Watershed]

Only one problem with that... no OLE in the spur.

Plus... how long does it take to take a unit from the spur, reverse it somewhere, find a free platform, then reverse it again before entering service. Clearly a lot longer than using a 'hot spare'.

With Piccadilly one of Northern's busiest stations it's quite a strategic move in my view, even if it's realistically more a matter of operational convenience than anything else.

 

[zwk500]

Plus... how long does it take to take a unit from the spur, reverse it somewhere, find a free platform, then reverse it again before entering service. Clearly a lot longer than using a 'hot spare'.

With Piccadilly one of Northern's busiest stations it's quite a strategic move in my view, even if it's realistically more a matter of operational convenience than anything else.

At leas they put the hot spare in a platform that isn't generally usable for much else anyway, unlike some TOCs who leave a unit on the blocks and effectively shorten the platform for the day without telling anybody.

 

[Watershed]

he has to produce a fresh simplifier every week just to be able to get everything platformed in a manner is more sensible than what the timetable planners would have them doing (P1-5 tend to get the brunt of the changes)

The platforming at Piccadilly is a nightmare, even on an LTP basis. With the number of STP changes that get made, particularly at short notice, it's no surprise that some of the booked platforming just doesn't work. There aren't really enough platforms for the number of services the station now sees, and the layout isn't particularly conducive to parallel moves (other than platform 3, which is fairly flexible).

 

[cin88]

The platforming at Piccadilly is a nightmare, even on an LTP basis. With the number of STP changes that get made, particularly at short notice, it's no surprise that some of the booked platforming just doesn't work. There aren't really enough platforms for the number of services the station now sees, and the layout isn't particularly conducive to parallel moves (other than platform 3, which is fairly flexible).

You sound just like that particular signaller

 

[ayubdaud]

The platforming at Piccadilly is a nightmare, even on an LTP basis. With the number of STP changes that get made, particularly at short notice, it's no surprise that some of the booked platforming just doesn't work. There aren't really enough platforms for the number of services the station now sees, and the layout isn't particularly conducive to parallel moves (other than platform 3, which is fairly flexible).

Would hopefully be more straightforward once CrossCountry return to 2tph as it might give slightly more flexibility on the fast line platforms. The east lines would be easier if TPE ran stock that could enable permissive working on the buffer end too.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

The platforming at Piccadilly is a nightmare

Please don't take this the wrong way, but have the planners, LTP & STP, taken the time to meet with the signallers to discuss each sides issues? Can be good to talk, as the saying goes ! There will always be a small number of moves that a bobby will prefer to make this way or that way (outside of the base plan), but there might also be good reasons (Junction margins somewhere further down the route?) that prevent the planners putting such a move in the plan due to NR's legal margins that planners have to adhere to.

 

[Watershed]

Please don't take this the wrong way, but have the planners, LTP & STP, taken the time to meet with the signallers to discuss each sides issues? Can be good to talk, as the saying goes ! There will always be a small number of moves that a bobby will prefer to make this way or that way (outside of the base plan), but there might also be good reasons (Junction margins somewhere further down the route?) that prevent the planners putting such a move in the plan due to NR's legal margins that planners have to adhere to.

Not something that ever happens, in my experience. Very much deemed different disciplines, each in their own separate world.

It's maddening for those who actually want to run a proper railway.

 

[zwk500]

Not something that ever happens, in my experience. Very much deemed different disciplines, each in their own separate world.

It's maddening for those who actually want to run a proper railway.

Depends on the station - some planners I know have very close working relations with the signallers on their patch.