Elizabeth line reliability issues

[Horizon22]

Interesting comments at the transition of the project from man-in-charge Howard Smith, decent chap who must be tearing his hair out at some of the emerging issues.

Article also covers the diversion of freight trains due to the Oxford bridge failure; noticeable yesterday was just how many container, and doubtless other, freights are having to be rerouted along the line, and in fact how well Control are managing to interleave them. They seem to have a particular problem heading southbound, from other main routes, where due to delays there they present considerably late at Acton.

Information screens seemed to be working fine this evening, so perhaps that is resolved.

The freight - as has been reported before - is a big constraint especialy as it runs Relief line and is slotted in as best possible but still very challenging. There have also been quite a few GWML incidents this week which can't help matters as you can't hold the freight endlessly and a bunch coming out all at once is not a solution either.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Information screens seemed to be working fine this evening, so perhaps that is resolved.

The freight - as has been reported before - is a big constraint especialy as it runs Relief line and is slotted in as best possible but still very challenging. There have also been quite a few GWML incidents this week which can't help matters as you can't hold the freight endlessly and a bunch coming out all at once is not a solution either.

Maybe I'm missing something, but the Nuneham viaduct is located on the GWR between Didcot and Oxford, right? As far as I'm aware that's not an alternative route to the Elizabeth line tracks between Paddington and Reading - rather it's a continuation of that route. So I don't understand how freight not being able to use the Nuneham Viaduct means there's more freight on the Elizabeth line??? Can someone explain?

 

[JamesT]

Maybe I'm missing something, but the Nuneham viaduct is located on the GWR between Didcot and Oxford, right? As far as I'm aware that's not an alternative route to the Elizabeth line tracks between Paddington and Reading - rather it's a continuation of that route. So I don't understand how freight not being able to use the Nuneham Viaduct means there's more freight on the Elizabeth line??? Can someone explain?

Some of the freight that would ordinarily use the route between Oxford and Didcot is being rerouted via the Chiltern Line and the Greenford Branch onto the GWML near Ealing. So it’s then competing with the Elizabeth Line trains on the Relief lines until Reading.

 

[Horizon22]

Maybe I'm missing something, but the Nuneham viaduct is located on the GWR between Didcot and Oxford, right? As far as I'm aware that's not an alternative route to the Elizabeth line tracks between Paddington and Reading - rather it's a continuation of that route. So I don't understand how freight not being able to use the Nuneham Viaduct means there's more freight on the Elizabeth line??? Can someone explain?

It’s being diverted around the issue and this is via Acton Yard, running on the Relief line east of Reading instead of heading West via Didcot and Oxford.

 

[ChrisHogan]

Maybe I'm missing something, but the Nuneham viaduct is located on the GWR between Didcot and Oxford, right? As far as I'm aware that's not an alternative route to the Elizabeth line tracks between Paddington and Reading - rather it's a continuation of that route. So I don't understand how freight not being able to use the Nuneham Viaduct means there's more freight on the Elizabeth line??? Can someone explain?

Running east from Reading to Acton then to Willesden for the Midlands, North and North West

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Some of the freight that would ordinarily use the route between Oxford and Didcot is being rerouted via the Chiltern Line and the Greenford Branch onto the GWML near Ealing. So it’s then competing with the Elizabeth Line trains on the Relief lines until Reading.

Ah OK so it's stuff that's going from Basingstoke to/from Oxford, not stuff that's going from London to/from OXford (which was what was confusing me). Now I understand, thanks!

 

[MrJeeves]

available at most central stations but that's only for customers of Three and Vodafone

All four networks have it... EE runs as EE WiFi-Auto and O2's as WiFi Extra.

 

[Taunton]

Ah OK so it's stuff that's going from Basingstoke to/from Oxford, not stuff that's going from London to/from OXford (which was what was confusing me). Now I understand, thanks!

It's seemingly the whole of the substantial Southampton to the north freight that has been diverted; I noticed last week the likes of Southampton to Sheffield liner trains coming down the line. The various alternatives, such as from Didcot via Kemble, are not established freight routes so the crew would not know it, and anyway would need banking up the Lickey northbound, and from Stonehouse to Kemble southbound.

 

[DC1989]

Substantially issues today again

 

[TFN]

Substantially issues today again

Three separate issues:
1. Points failure at Maryland
2. One train with a door issue at Paddington Eastbound
3. One train with a door issue at Custom House Westbound

Service did bounce back relatively quickly.

 

[NSEWonderer]

Just had another train fault today at Paddington.
No services between Pad and Abbey wood for now.

The trouble train below that caused it

 

[bramling]

Interesting comments at the transition of the project from man-in-charge Howard Smith, decent chap who must be tearing his hair out at some of the emerging issues.

MSN

Article also covers the diversion of freight trains due to the Oxford bridge failure; noticeable yesterday was just how many container, and doubtless other, freights are having to be rerouted along the line, and in fact how well Control are managing to interleave them. They seem to have a particular problem heading southbound, from other main routes, where due to delays there they present considerably late at Acton.

This is what happens with a software-based railway. Maybe things will improve in a generation or so when where’s more of a connect between railway engineers and software engineers, but until that happens expect much more of this.

It’s been exactly the same story with ATC on the Underground. Comes in with a long list of bugs, these get dealt with (if anyone can actually get the software engineers to properly understand what the issue is), and you often end up with either a partial solution, or new issues arising. Then cue a load of legal wrangling as both sides argue whether the contractual terms have been met or not.

This is why I can’t help but smile whenever politicians wax lyrical about concepts like a digital railway (whatever that actually is).

 

[NSEWonderer]

Tbh most of the issues is how the actual initial issue is handled. You go from a train fault that starts off as a yellow incident disruption wise. Normally you wouldn't go into the orange here with good management but sometimes you do depending on the fault but way too often does the disruption management go into red and this happens mainly due to lack of communication leading to certain decisions in the form of mitigations causing even more delays and disruptions.

The honest truth of it is that in the company there isn't enough of the right railway people in the postions they ought to be in and instead they're mainly working it up thru the mess below. A lot of issues spiral out of effective control due to being too reactive than proactive with incidents that lead to the delays

 

[43066]

This is why I can’t help but smile whenever politicians wax lyrical about concepts like a digital railway (whatever that actually is).

Something that sounds good as a soundbite when promising “jam tomorrow”.

 

[Goldfish62]

Three separate issues:
1. Points failure at Maryland
2. One train with a door issue at Paddington Eastbound
3. One train with a door issue at Custom House Westbound

Service did bounce back relatively quickly.

I'm told by an internal source that an increasing number of door faults with the units are causing concern.

 

[Horizon22]

Three separate issues:
1. Points failure at Maryland
2. One train with a door issue at Paddington Eastbound
3. One train with a door issue at Custom House Westbound

Service did bounce back relatively quickly.

It seems like the one at Paddington was more significant than just a door issue as it was heavily delayed actually getting into Paddington, which suggests a software/signalling issue.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 May 2023 ==

This is what happens with a software-based railway. Maybe things will improve in a generation or so when where’s more of a connect between railway engineers and software engineers, but until that happens expect much more of this.

It’s been exactly the same story with ATC on the Underground. Comes in with a long list of bugs, these get dealt with (if anyone can actually get the software engineers to properly understand what the issue is), and you often end up with either a partial solution, or new issues arising. Then cue a load of legal wrangling as both sides argue whether the contractual terms have been met or not.

This is why I can’t help but smile whenever politicians wax lyrical about concepts like a digital railway (whatever that actually is).

That certainly sounds feasible!

 

[TFN]

It seems like the one at Paddington was more significant than just a door issue as it was heavily delayed actually getting into Paddington, which suggests a software/signalling issue.

The second one at Paddington around 11 was a train fault and had to be taken out of service.

 

[Horizon22]

The second one at Paddington around 11 was a train fault and had to be taken out of service.

Was delayed in Westbourne Park before it got into Paddington.

Realtime Trains | 9U03 0945 Heathrow Airport Terminal 4 to London Paddington | 22/05/2023

Real-time train running information for 9U03 0945 departure from Heathrow Airport Terminal 4 to London Paddington on 22/05/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[TFN]

Was delayed in Westbourne Park before it got into Paddington.

This unit failed to transition to enter the Central Operating Section. It had to crawl its way to Paddington Platform A, detrained then crawled its way back to Old Oak.

During this time, most trains from the West terminated at Paddington HL. Trains from the East were either terminated at Liverpool St HL or turned back at Tottenham Court Rd.

 

[Horizon22]

This unit failed to transition to enter the Central Operating Section. It had to crawl its way to Paddington Platform A, detrained then crawled its way back to Old Oak.

During this time, most trains from the West terminated at Paddington HL. Trains from the East were either terminated at Liverpool St HL or turned back at Tottenham Court Rd.

Yes, but looking at this looks like it failed to transition into CBTC AND then had door problems when it did get into Paddington. So the unit must have had a number of escalating issues as a failure to transition is not unheard of and normally rectified with a slight delay.

 

[NSEWonderer]

Slightly off topic but also the amount of issues with the gateline for customers with contactless cards and phones is astounding compared to other lines. Custom House and Abbey Wood also by far the most unreliable stations for passenger interchange with custom house notoriously overcharging those who come off the DLR to use the Elizabeth line unless they tap out via the DLR machines which further towards the excel main entrance and then have to walk back to the gateline for the Elizabeth Line to start a new journey thru.

Where as at Abbey Wood those coming from the elizabeth line with have to tap out the gateline and then ask staff to be let back in after showing their ticket(if it doesnt work via gates or is via the phone as the elizabeth line gateline has no qr scanners at present) before heading to the Southeastern / Thameslink platforms from 3 and 4 or the upstairs gateline.

Same happens for those coming into Abbey Wood from starting points beyond Dartford as there are no Validators which are still delayed till now even after how many times staff have raised this issue and not so happy customers have.

TVMs also regularly fail to print tickets for passengers who end up understandably going ballistic thinking they've been shafted as the ticket isnt legible

 

[ijmad]

This is what happens with a software-based railway. Maybe things will improve in a generation or so when where’s more of a connect between railway engineers and software engineers, but until that happens expect much more of this.

It’s been exactly the same story with ATC on the Underground. Comes in with a long list of bugs, these get dealt with (if anyone can actually get the software engineers to properly understand what the issue is), and you often end up with either a partial solution, or new issues arising. Then cue a load of legal wrangling as both sides argue whether the contractual terms have been met or not.

This is why I can’t help but smile whenever politicians wax lyrical about concepts like a digital railway (whatever that actually is).

There are thousands of 'software based' signalling systems deployed on thousands of railways around the world, the majority of them do not suffer from daily reliability problems.

 

[Horizon22]

Slightly off topic but also the amount of issues with the gateline for customers with contactless cards and phones is astounding compared to other lines. Custom House and Abbey Wood also by far the most unreliable stations for passenger interchange with custom house notoriously overcharging those who come off the DLR to use the Elizabeth line unless they tap out via the DLR machines which further towards the excel main entrance and then have to walk back to the gateline for the Elizabeth Line to start a new journey thru.

Where as at Abbey Wood those coming from the elizabeth line with have to tap out the gateline and then ask staff to be let back in after showing their ticket(if it doesnt work via gates or is via the phone as the elizabeth line gateline has no qr scanners at present) before heading to the Southeastern / Thameslink platforms from 3 and 4 or the upstairs gateline.

Same happens for those coming into Abbey Wood from starting points beyond Dartford as there are no Validators which are still delayed till now even after how many times staff have raised this issue and not so happy customers have.

TVMs also regularly fail to print tickets for passengers who end up understandably going ballistic thinking they've been shafted as the ticket isnt legible

It's quite off-topic, but anyway.

Abbey Wood won't happen as TfL aren't happy with the revenue standards on Southeastern and GTR and to be honest most people on this forum could attest that and understand TfL's point of view here...

Custom House was definitely a design failing which was surprising it got all the way to revenue service without it being considered.

 

[Taunton]

Slightly off topic but also the amount of issues with the gateline for customers with contactless cards and phones is astounding compared to other lines. Custom House and Abbey Wood also by far the most unreliable stations for passenger interchange with custom house notoriously overcharging those who come off the DLR to use the Elizabeth line unless they tap out via the DLR machines which further towards the excel main entrance and then have to walk back to the gateline for the Elizabeth Line to start a new journey thru.

You are correct. After the initial month or so at Custom House this seemed to be fixed, and journeys on the DLR connecting onto the Liz were autocompleted. I don't know whether by programming to do so or manual editing. However, from about two months ago this was given up and they went back to not completing them, charging a maximum fare for the DLR journey and then separately for the Liz starting 10 minutes later. Announcements are now made on the DLR to 'ensure you tap out before going through the Liz gates', without any indication of where the DLR readers might be - because there are none at the top of the DLR escalators, which lead directly to the Liz gates at the side. In fact, those transferring from the DLR are the only users of these gates.

However, an upside is they require an attendant, a cold and lonely job away from the main gateline, so increasingly they are unmanned and the wide gate is left open. Guess what, if you just walk through this without tapping, and then exit at your destination, the overall fare is calculated correctly. But if attended and you need to tap through, you get overcharged.

For goodness sake, it's about 6 lines of programming for if someone has tapped in on the DLR within the last 30 minutes, and is now entering the Liz, you autocomplete the DLR journey. I'll even write the code for you if you can't do it yourselves, TfL ...

 

[Benjwri]

Abbey Wood won't happen as TfL aren't happy with the revenue standards on Southeastern and GTR and to be honest most people on this forum could attest that and understand TfL's point of view here...

An issue that could be fixed, as it was on GWR. Before Crossrail started Zone 2 stations like Acton Main Line were ungated.

 

[crablab]

Slightly off topic but also the amount of issues with the gateline

They have the gateline at Paddington permanently reject Railcard discounted tickets and don't seem to realise! (They're never interested in checking the Railcard itself).

 

[matt_world2004]

An issue that could be fixed, as it was on GWR. Before Crossrail started Zone 2 stations like Acton Main Line were ungated.

All GwR stations upto slough were ubgated except Ealing Broadway ,Greenford and Paddington until the stations got redeveloped for crossrail

 

[bramling]

There are thousands of 'software based' signalling systems deployed on thousands of railways around the world, the majority of them do not suffer from daily reliability problems.

I can’t speak for what happens elsewhere as I have no experience of how things may or may not work elsewhere. But I have first-hand experience *here*, and I can tell you categorically it’s exactly as I described. Some suppliers are better than others, though, to be fair.

 

[NSEWonderer]

You are correct. After the initial month or so at Custom House this seemed to be fixed, and journeys on the DLR connecting onto the Liz were autocompleted. I don't know whether by programming to do so or manual editing. However, from about two months ago this was given up and they went back to not completing them, charging a maximum fare for the DLR journey and then separately for the Liz starting 10 minutes later. Announcements are now made on the DLR to 'ensure you tap out before going through the Liz gates', without any indication of where the DLR readers might be - because there are none at the top of the DLR escalators, which lead directly to the Liz gates at the side. In fact, those transferring from the DLR are the only users of these gates.

However, an upside is they require an attendant, a cold and lonely job away from the main gateline, so increasingly they are unmanned and the wide gate is left open. Guess what, if you just walk through this without tapping, and then exit at your destination, the overall fare is calculated correctly. But if attended and you need to tap through, you get overcharged.

For goodness sake, it's about 6 lines of programming for if someone has tapped in on the DLR within the last 30 minutes, and is now entering the Liz, you autocomplete the DLR journey. I'll even write the code for you if you can't do it yourselves, TfL ...

Rumor is custom house makes a lot of revenue due to the uncompleted journey charges from dlr users swapping to the Elizabeth Line hence why there dragging their feet with it. Most users won't even realise it when using a bank card or oyster eith enough money till they check their travel history (assuming they even check that) and then also make the time to report the overcharge and all the waiting for tfl to correct it.

 

[TFN]

Abbey Wood readers are supposed to be installed “this summer”. Custom House readers still doesn’t have a date.

I believe the issue at Custom House only affects PAYG Oyster users. The announcement on the DLR platforms have changed to reflect this. It now says:
”Please remember to touch out with your Oyster card before you continue your journey on the Elizabeth Line”.
Before it used to say contactless card or device as well.