Disingenuous departure board at London Victoria

[Ken_Ilworth]

I travelled through London Victoria on Sunday and took a look at the departure board. The alphabetical list of stations in the "Next fastest direct train to" section does not include Gatwick Airport [GTW]. However, there is a large panel to the left of that list stating "Your next Gatwick Express train". I took the attached photo at 1240: the next "Gatwick Express" (sic) train is stated as "18mins". Although the platform had not yet been announced when I took the picture, this was clearly referring to the 1259 "Gatwick Express" service from platform 14. This service is timetabled to arrive at GTW at 1329, 30 minutes after departure. However, the train I caught, the Southern-branded service at 1246 would have given an earlier arrival - at 1317.
Many of us are well aware of the dubious advantages of the Gatwick Express-branded services, perhaps a 1-minute advantage in journey time (at the risk of an increased fare for the unwary) - but I was honestly taken aback how the departure boards might be seen to collaborate to lure the Gatwick-bound unaware to the "Gatwick Express" gateline.

(Image inserted as thumbnail shows part of the London Victoria departure board on Sunday 28th May.)

 

[yorkie]

Ah yes I've seen this before, but I had thought it had stopped... anyone know the history of this?

Is anyone able to take a look and see what the screens show any day this week (when GTR are only running SN branded services between Victoria & Gatwick)

 

[gabrielhj07]

That is really sneaky.

 

[Horizon22]

Ah yes I've seen this before, but I had thought it had stopped... anyone know the history of this?

Is anyone able to take a look and see what the screens show any day this week (when GTR are only running SN branded services between Victoria & Gatwick)

I imagine it will show nothing for Gatwick Airport - the list of destinations on the "next fastest train to" would need to be configured (normally based on popular destinations) manually and probably won't be adjusted.

Anything (almost) will be attempted to lure people towards Gatwick Express and it has been going on for years.

 

[PGAT]

Slightly unrelated, but why are Gillingham and Rochester shown on the Southern end screens?

 

[Trainguy34]

Slightly unrelated, but why are Gillingham and Rochester shown on the Southern end screens?

And Lewisham, Orpington and Bromley South

 

[30907]

Perhaps because they are significant destinations and the casual traveller will not know there is a separate departures board on the Eastern side? Though it is a slightly odd selection, I admit.

 

[LLivery]

That's bad, but unsurprising considering the well-known Gatwick Express methods. I was looking at this board the other day; I never noticed the Gatwick issue, but I find it amazing they feel the need to have Carshalton and Carshalton Beeches as well as Crystal Palace and Gipsy Hill, but not a single station between Sydenham & London Bridge, including London Bridge itself.

Slightly unrelated, but why are Gillingham and Rochester shown on the Southern end screens?

They show the Kent side on these boards. I think that's good, most people won't know there are 'two sides', unless you go there often.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I really don't see the problem here. Gatwick has its own dedicated service so they direct Gatwick passengers onto those services keeping all other services free of huge amounts of luggage blocking doors and gangways. What's the issue?

 

[CyrusWuff]

I really don't see the problem here. Gatwick has its own dedicated service so they direct Gatwick passengers onto those services keeping all other services free of huge amounts of luggage blocking doors and gangways. What's the issue?

The issue is that GTR normally charge a premium for using their services branded Gatwick Express that can be as little as two minutes faster than their services branded Southern.

Not exactly impartial (even though it's TOC on self) is it?

 

[PGAT]

There have been countless threads talking about this but some argue GX separates tourists from the busy commuter trains (and generating a nice bit of cash on the side), but others argue it’s not well used, and a blatant scam.

 

[32475]

It all amounts to misleading customers into falsely buying a more expensive ‘product’ than they need to.
Imagine if say shops and supermarkets did that for products. A case for the Watchdog methinks.

 

[Basil Jet]

The issue is that GTR normally charge a premium for using their services branded Gatwick Express that can be as little as two minutes faster than their services branded Southern.

Not exactly impartial (even though it's TOC on self) is it?

Historically the price differential was created by Connex deciding to undercut the uniform price inherited from British Rail, not by Gatwick Express deciding to charge a premium.

 

[Bertie the bus]

The issue is that GTR normally charge a premium for using their services branded Gatwick Express that can be as little as two minutes faster than their services branded Southern.

Not exactly impartial (even though it's TOC on self) is it?

What do you mean it isn't impartial? A destination board isn't retail. It is a destination board. The idea of separating airport passengers is perfectly reasonable and if your argument is based on the fact they could get there a couple of minutes earlier by travelling on another service that is a very flimsy one. A few minutes here or there doesn't matter to any reasonable airport passenger.

 

[4COR]

What's the issue?

Southern ("Non GatEx) Off Peak single, Standard class: £9.50 on contactless. Anytime single £17.50 on contactless.

There is no off-peak fare on the GatEx so you'll be charged £19.40 for an Anytime single, even after 0929. (There is actually the same fare for all non PAYG Anytime fares ie "GatEx", "Any Permitted" and "Not Gat Ex" - so in the morning peak, it actually makes no difference which route you go if you're not using PAYG. Equally, if you insist on a paper ticket, it looks like this is also the only single fare from Victoria, even out of the peak...).

As an (ex-)local, it was always perceived as a rip-off for tourists and business travellers, even back in the days of the Intercity Class 73/GLV trains - there were plenty of services that only added in Clapham Junct and East Croydon as stops that were much cheaper.

 

[cocoiadrop]

A few minutes here or there doesn't matter to any reasonable airport passenger.

What would probably matter to quite a lot of travellers, if they knew about it, would be that they can get functionally the same service for less money.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It all amounts to misleading customers into falsely buying a more expensive ‘product’ than they need to.
Imagine if say shops and supermarkets did that for products. A case for the Watchdog methinks.

Shops do do it for products. Lots of the time. Often a cheaper option is the same as the more expensive one or very similar, but packaged differently.

 

[PGAT]

Shops do do it for products. Lots of the time. Often a cheaper option is the same as the more expensive one or very similar, but packaged differently.

That still doesn’t justify it

 

[4COR]

Shops do do it for products. Lots of the time. Often a cheaper option is the same as the more expensive one or very similar, but packaged differently.

But at least both products are displayed with prices underneath...

 

[Bletchleyite]

But at least both products are displayed with prices underneath...

While Gatwick isn't on the "next train" display, they aren't, so far as I know, hiding the Gatwick stops on the Southern services, are they? So it's perfectly possible to find them.

I struggle to see this as anything more than "a bit naughty" in the scheme of businesses being dishonest.

 

[Kite159]

Almost as bad as the "Next Train to" boards at East Croydon, which will happily show the next train to London Bridge being a stopping service rather than directing passengers for the next nonstop service.

DfT would love people to pay extra to use the red train, sadly most passengers have gotten wise to that tourist trap and will use a regular Southern branded service if travelling from the hellhole known as London Victoria.

 

[ComUtoR]

It all amounts to misleading customers into falsely buying a more expensive ‘product’ than they need to.
Imagine if say shops and supermarkets did that for products. A case for the Watchdog methinks.

Supermarkets do it ALL the time. When I worked in retail, the way in which we advertised products would be considered a scam 24/7. Retail are the Kings of customer manipulation.

What would probably matter to quite a lot of travellers, if they knew about it, would be that they can get functionally the same service for less money.

Not really the same service. Technically its still 'faster' but it also offers a bespoke destination for a bespoke passenger. People are willing to pay a premium for what they consider important. Not sitting with Hoi Polloi would be enough for me to pay that little bit extra for.

 

[Purple Train]

I really don't see the problem here. Gatwick has its own dedicated service so they direct Gatwick passengers onto those services keeping all other services free of huge amounts of luggage blocking doors and gangways. What's the issue?

Your logic would be spot on if the GatEx price wasn't over 100% higher.

And we wonder and wring our hands over why regular passengers are getting so disillusioned with the railway...

 

[Taunton]

As an (ex-)local, it was always perceived as a rip-off for tourists and business travellers, even back in the days of the Intercity Class 73/GLV trains - there were plenty of services that only added in Clapham Junct and East Croydon as stops that were much cheaper.

I don't believe that's the case. For the 73+GLV service in its earlier days the fare was the normal one you would expect from a normal station there. Travellers would drive from East Grinstead and all around to park at Gatwick when going to London - in those times the airport car park charge was also reasonable (!) and the all night service meant you could come back whenever in late evening.

 

[modernrail]

While Gatwick isn't on the "next train" display, they aren't, so far as I know, hiding the Gatwick stops on the Southern services, are they? So it's perfectly possible to find them.

I struggle to see this as anything more than "a bit naughty" in the scheme of businesses being dishonest.

Why not put all services to one of the most important station on the London - Brighton line on the next fastest board when much smaller stations are on there? I use the Next Fastest board specifically to avoid needing to look at the big board. It is behaviour that a grown up railway company should not indulge in. If you want people to use the Express, charge less for it and fill all your seats.

I can’t think of another airport I have visited abroad that has the amount of bull**** you witness at the likes of Heathrow and Gatwick to try and entrap you into higher fares.

 

[4COR]

I don't believe that's the case. For the 73+GLV service in its earlier days the fare was the normal one you would expect from a normal station there. Travellers would drive from East Grinstead and all around to park at Gatwick when going to London - in those times the airport car park charge was also reasonable (!) and the all night service meant you could come back whenever in late evening.

It may depend how far back you go! The GLV/73s were around until ~2005 and the service was privatised in March 1994 - was that when the price differential was introduced, or was it before/after then?

 

[CyrusWuff]

It may depend how far back you go! The GLV/73s were around until ~2005 and the service was privatised in March 1994 - was that when the price differential was introduced, or was it before/after then?

Whilst the Gatwick Express Train Operating Unit was created in March 1994, it wasn't privatised until the end of April 1996 (along with Midland Mainine). NFM64 fares between Victoria and Gatwick were £8.90 for a Standard Open Single (SOS) or £17.80 for a Standard Open Return (SOR) on Gatwick Express, and £7.50 for an SOS or £15.00 for an SOR on Network SouthCentral; with the only London Terminals fares being season tickets.

Over at London Bridge, meanwhile, the Standard Day Single (SDS) on Thameslink was £8.30, and the SOR was £16.60.

 

[southern442]

Surprised that even with inflation the non-GatEx fares haven't changed that much!

 

[JohnElliott]

Even in BR days the Solari boards at Victoria didn't show Gatwick Airport as a stop on trains other than the Gatwick Express. Similarly at Gatwick all Victoria trains except the Gatwick Express were displayed and announced as if they terminated at Clapham Junction.

 

[Ken_Ilworth]

Historically the price differential was created by Connex deciding to undercut the uniform price inherited from British Rail, not by Gatwick Express deciding to charge a premium.

Even in BR days the Solari boards at Victoria didn't show Gatwick Airport as a stop on trains other than the Gatwick Express. Similarly at Gatwick all Victoria trains except the Gatwick Express were displayed and announced as if they terminated at Clapham Junction.

I wasn't fully aware of the history - thank you; I see how BR sensibly guided airport passengers.

In 2023 - for the specific example given in post #1 - those in the know could arrive 12 minutes earlier for 48% of the price..