TfW class 398 Stadler Citylink tram trains

[anthony263]

We've probably had this discussion many times before.

No toilets on the tram-trains. If you need to go, get off at a station and get the next one.

From what I've read journey times on yhe valley lines cut to.50 minutes from 59 minutes or so. If there's toilets at many stations fair enough. People manage on buses without toilets

However I can also see the other side if this argument especially as.its been difficult before taking my 3 year old daughter out and she starts asking for the toilet

 

[Avowedsevern]

We've probably had this discussion many times before.

No toilets on the tram-trains. If you need to go, get off at a station and get the next one.

Tell me you haven’t been on the Valley Lines on match day without directly saying so…

100% there’ll be piss bottles everywhere and people actually pissing in the corners of the trams, they’ll be stinking within the year

Absolute travesty, and so short sighted

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Tell me you haven’t been on the Valley Lines on match day without directly saying so…

100% there’ll be piss bottles everywhere and people actually pissing in the corners of the trams, they’ll be stinking within the year

Absolute travesty, and so short sighted

This is painfully hyperbolic. 376/345/707/455 routes manage perfectly fine, so the 398s should also.

If what I’ve emboldened turns out the be the case, perhaps that simply speaks of the clientele using the services, and whether or not they deserve new trains if they’re going to willingly do such things to them. And if people are willing to do that, they’re not going to be. I’d hate to see what state toilets would be left in if the 398s had them, running through Cathays (where I live for uni) and the upper Valleys.

The 231s go through Bargoed. I’ll be looking very closely with interest at what state their toilets are in later in the year.

I imagine Graffiti, drug deals in toilets, urine on the floor and seeping out into the saloon (noticed this a lot on 465s) etc. 700s toilets are an example, so are commuter stock in Italy and most of Europe’s hotter countries.

I hope you enjoy the improvements as much as I, and many others, are sure to

 

[Bob Price]

Can anyone name me a Metro system in the UK with toilets? Some of the trips on the Manchester Metrolink are longer than the ones which will be on the South Wales Metro and they don't seem to have a problem. And this whole things about match day: how many days a year does that happen? 3 maybe 4? Not a reason to take out a whole chunk of seats. People will just need to get used to a new way of doing things.

Back on topic, anyone know if any of these runs are happening? I heard the 7th will be the first one.

 

[stuu]

Tell me you haven’t been on the Valley Lines on match day without directly saying so…

100% there’ll be piss bottles everywhere and people actually pissing in the corners of the trams, they’ll be stinking within the year

Absolute travesty, and so short sighted

If those going to match days struggle to control their bladders to this extent, it seems highly unlikely that they would form an orderly queue outside a single toilet either.

Does this happen after games at Twickenham say?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Would it be possible to put a toilet in a tram-train. I guess space would be main reason not to?

Loos are not a feature of Metro style operations although I don't agree with it.

This is painfully hyperbolic. 376/345/707/455 routes manage perfectly fine, so the 398s should also.

If what I’ve emboldened turns out the be the case, perhaps that simply speaks of the clientele using the services, and whether or not they deserve new trains if they’re going to willingly do such things to them. And if people are willing to do that, they’re not going to be. I’d hate to see what state toilets would be left in if the 398s had them, running through Cathays (where I live for uni) and the upper Valleys.

The 231s go through Bargoed. I’ll be looking very closely with interest at what state their toilets are in later in the year.

I imagine Graffiti, drug deals in toilets, urine on the floor and seeping out into the saloon (noticed this a lot on 465s) etc. 700s toilets are an example, so are commuter stock in Italy and most of Europe’s hotter countries.

I hope you enjoy the improvements as much as I, and many others, are sure to

For most of us law abiding descent citizens a loo would be nice. If we (8 year old - 63 year old) are travelling on the Elizabeth line then I make sure we time things so that changing onto Thameslink at Farringdon happens soon enough for a loo to be available on a 700.

Perhaps as you get older you will discover how important good availability of loos is.

But I do agree that train loos can suffer from lack of servicing (emptying) and abuse. But is that a reason to get rid of them ?. Do loos overflow because they are not emptied often enough because there are not enough of them ?.

This is kind of another seating debate .

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Loos are not a feature of Metro style operations although I don't agree with it.

For most of us law abiding descent citizens a loo would be nice. If we (8 year old - 63 year old) are travelling on the Elizabeth line then I make sure we time things so that changing onto Thameslink at Farringdon happens soon enough for a loo to be available on a 700.

Perhaps as you get older you will discover how important good availability of loos is.

But I do agree that train loos can suffer from lack of servicing (emptying) and abuse. But is that a reason to get rid of them ?. Do loos overflow because they are not emptied often enough because there are not enough of them ?.

This is kind of another seating debate .

Patronising comment about my age aside, that’s why they’re installing plenty of toilets at stations along route, so the minority that consider toilets on an hour long journey a must can get off, use them, and join the next in a few minutes time.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Patronising comment about my age aside, that’s why they’re installing plenty of toilets at stations along route, so the minority that consider toilets on an hour long journey a must can get off, use them, and join the next in a few minutes time.

Not meant to be patronising but trust me as one gets older for many the bladder does get less patient. At the other end of the scale are children - we seem to improve with age then go back down hill again .

 

[Bob Price]

I would be interested to know what the usage off loos actually is. Not sure how you would monitor it. I will say I can't remember the last time I used one on the Valleys or on GWR to Paddington. Btw Paddington station loos on platform 1 have some great Train murals on the walls.

 

[CardiffKid]

I would be interested to know what the usage off loos actually is. Not sure how you would monitor it. I will say I can't remember the last time I used one on the Valleys or on GWR to Paddington. Btw Paddington station loos on platform 1 have some great Train murals on the walls.

I used to be a member of ATW’s passenger panel for the valleys - part of which involved mystery shopping a journey once a month.

At the first panel meeting we were told what we needed to record/look out for - availablity of staff, announcements, time before ticket check etc and the cleanliness of toilets - a fellow panel member and daily commuter responded “the trains have toilets?”

I think a lot of fuss is being made about the lack of toliets and once all these units are in service no one will care.

What hasn’t been given an appropriate reason IMO though is why Merthyr and Rhondda Valleys are getting tram-trains and why Caerphilly/Bargoed are getting trains.

 

[Bob Price]

What hasn’t been given an appropriate reason IMO though is why Merthyr and Rhondda Valleys are getting tram-trains and why Caerphilly/Bargoed are getting trains.

I thought it was down to there still being freight on the Rhymney line plus the need to run the VOG, Barry and Penarth services which aren't allowed to have Tram Trains due to them still being part of Network Rail? There may be other reasons.

 

[56xx]

I thought it was down to there still being freight on the Rhymney line plus the need to run the VOG, Barry and Penarth services which aren't allowed to have Tram Trains due to them still being part of Network Rail? There may be other reasons.

Will there be a tram RHTT ?

 

[Bob Price]

Will there be a tram RHTT ?

Network Rail have MPVs. Might use that or do it overnight. The schedule between Pontypridd and Cardiff will be so intense I can't see them getting a RHTT up there during the day

 

[AdamWW]

I thought it was down to there still being freight on the Rhymney line

Not for much longer I think.

 

[CardiffKid]

I thought it was down to there still being freight on the Rhymney line plus the need to run the VOG, Barry and Penarth services which aren't allowed to have Tram Trains due to them still being part of Network Rail? There may be other reasons.

Two points:

1. You could still have trains (rather than tram-trains) on the Rhondda/Merthyr lines even if a freight train never visits that area again.*

2. Is that reason/excuse good enough if your opinion if you explain that to a resident in Merthyr/RCT?


* even with the potential expansion of trams in Cardiff/Cardiff Crossrail you could still have a viable network (I’m thinking the Coryton line etc) feeding into brand new tram network.

 

[stevieinselby]

What hasn’t been given an appropriate reason IMO though is why Merthyr and Rhondda Valleys are getting tram-trains and why Caerphilly/Bargoed are getting trains.

Agreed. In particular, it seems absolutely nuts that the Coryton branch is getting trains despite surely being the single most suitable line for conversion to tram operation on the whole of the National Rail network – most of the stations along there are within spitting distance of each other! The platforms at Whitchurch and Rhiwbina are just 440m apart, that's closer than many actual tram stops.

It feels horribly like in a few short years when the shine has rubbed off the new trains trams, the Valleys will feel like it's back to the bad old Pacer days of having cheap and nasty rolling stock that is totally unsuited to travelling up to 25 miles on, albeit at least running more frequently. I hope I'm proved wrong and that the 398s turn out to be better to ride in than I'm expecting!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It feels horribly like in a few short years when the shine has rubbed off the new trains trams, the Valleys will feel like it's back to the bad old Pacer days of having cheap and nasty rolling stock that is totally unsuited to travelling up to 25 miles on, albeit at least running more frequently. I hope I'm proved wrong and that the 398s turn out to be better to ride in than I'm expecting!

That hasn’t been the case with Bury and Rochdale via Oldham Metrolink routes which seem far, far nicer than when 150s or worse shuttled up and down, and even then take into account they got very basic traditional interior trams - small seats, etc - the 398s will have the same seating as trains running from London to Northern Scotland and Cornwall, large pull down tables and will largely be formed of 6 cars rather than 4 on Metrolink.

 

[Bob Price]

Two points:

1. You could still have trains (rather than tram-trains) on the Rhondda/Merthyr lines even if a freight train never visits that area again.*

2. Is that reason/excuse good enough if your opinion if you explain that to a resident in Merthyr/RCT?


* even with the potential expansion of trams in Cardiff/Cardiff Crossrail you could still have a viable network (I’m thinking the Coryton line etc) feeding into brand new tram network.

You could still have freight, fair point.

I am guessing that in order to create a modern flexible and expandable outer suburban metro system which is what the Valley lines are, they had choice. One set of lines had to link to the VOG etc, so which do they convert? With the Pontypridd lines there is more opportunities for expansion (Hirwaun, Creigiau, etc) but it would allow more destinations to have more trains and trams would allow the headway needed for that to happen once you get to the Ponty -Radyr core.

All I know is that options were put on the table and that is the one they went for. If Westminster had handed over all the lines then I guess Penarth, VOG and Barry would have had trams as well as the Rhymney and Coryton.

And I agree having 398's on the Coryton is logical but I guess they will operate to Penarth or Barry from there.

 

[stuu]

It feels horribly like in a few short years when the shine has rubbed off the new trains trams, the Valleys will feel like it's back to the bad old Pacer days of having cheap and nasty rolling stock that is totally unsuited to travelling up to 25 miles on, albeit at least running more frequently. I hope I'm proved wrong and that the 398s turn out to be better to ride in than I'm expecting!

Why are you expecting them to be bad? They have fairly decent suburban interiors, and normal bogies, and aren't low floor, so they shouldn't be very different to a standard EMU to travel in

 

[Bob Price]

Agree, Stadler do some good units and they will be kitted out as outer suburban units. They are not designed to be long distance luxury trains. They will be a country mile ahead of the four wheel specials.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Jun 2023 ==

Looks like late on the 7th for the first run. Schedules in for GBRF which would make sense

 

[StripeyNick]

The units have all gained a coat of yellow paint on the coupling cover.

One of the trams was meant to venture out onto the network last night but even though there was lots of movement in the depot, nothing produced.

 

[Western 52]

The units have all gained a coat of yellow paint on the coupling cover.

One of the trams was meant to venture out onto the network last night but even though there was lots of movement in the depot, nothing produced.

Is the depot complete now?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Now that Cardiff Bay is staying where it is, and Callaghan Square is still a proposal, does that mean these don't currently actually have somewhere to work on-street/off heavy rail, meaning they could have just been proper size trains?

 

[AdamWW]

Is the depot complete now?

Doesn't look like it but there seems to be access from the sidings they are in to the main line.

Now that Cardiff Bay is staying where it is, and Callaghan Square is still a proposal, does that mean these don't currently actually have somewhere to work on-street/off heavy rail, meaning they could have just been proper size trains?

I think the idea was to permit later extension along light rail lines, and the short section in the Bay was as a trial rather than the entire justification for buying tram trains.

I believe the (partly?) funded extension from the Bay directly to Central will require light rail running. In any case the track between Queen Street and the Bay will be run on line of sight rather than signalling so will require suitable stock.

 

[MattRat]

Now that Cardiff Bay is staying where it is, and Callaghan Square is still a proposal, does that mean these don't currently actually have somewhere to work on-street/off heavy rail, meaning they could have just been proper size trains?

It's called planning for the future, which shouldn't be as rare as it is.

 

[Dai Corner]

Callaghan Square is funded.

Cardiff secures £50m from Levelling Up fund for the first phase of Cardiff Crossrail

Cardiff secures £50m from Levelling Up fund for the first phase of Cardiff Crossrail

www.cardiffnewsroom.co.uk

Cardiff secures £50m from Levelling Up fund for the first phase of Cardiff Crossrail
19/01/23

The first phase of Cardiff Crossrail - which will run from Cardiff Central to Cardiff Bay Train Station is set to be delivered - now that funding has been secured by Cardiff Council from both the UK and Welsh Governments.

The £50m Levelling Up Fund bid submitted by Cardiff Council has been approved by the UK Government, Welsh Government is match funding the project with a further £50m.

The funding will deliver a new rapid transport link from Cardiff Central to Cardiff Bay, via Callaghan Square, providing a vital transport link to support the development of the Callaghan Square, Bute Street, Lloyd George Avenue and the Atlantic Wharf masterplan.

The investment will act as a catalyst for the wider Crossrail scheme that aims to ultimately link with the proposed Cardiff Parkway Station in St Mellons, in Cardiff east, unlocking opportunities for a number of new stations in the east of the city.

Cardiff Council Leader, Cllr Huw Thomas, said "The announcement of this funding package is a ringing endorsement of our plans to regenerate Cardiff Bay and Atlantic Wharf. This new route will finally see Butetown properly connected to the city centre via Cardiff Central. It will not only serve visitors to the Bay and to the new Cardiff Arena, but it will also begin to make real the Council's ambitions for a Crossrail tram service which will run from the north west of the city all the way to the east of the city connecting with the proposed Parkway station. We look forward to working with UK Government and Welsh Government - which is match-funding the Levelling Up contribution - to deliver the scheme at pace."

• A regular tram service from Cardiff Central to a new platform at Cardiff Bay train station.
• Two new platforms at Cardiff Central Train Station
• Public realm improvements around the existing and new train platforms
• A new highway layout which allows safe transition for the public to use between road, rail, cycling and walking.

The first phase of the development will also extend to Pierhead Street and include the development of a new Transport Hub, linking in with the Atlantic Wharf masterplan.

Cllr Dan De'Ath, Cabinet Member for Strategic Planning and Transport said: "This is excellent news, as this funding will deliver the first phase of the Crossrail to provide an invaluable tram service connecting Cardiff Central with Cardiff Bay.

"Once the first phase is delivered, this route can easily be extended to the east or south, including the HMS Cambria site, providing a new reliable and affordable transport route for the public to use."

A spokesperson for Transport for Wales said: “We're pleased to continue working with our partners, including Cardiff Council and the Welsh Government, on plans that will contribute to the wider collaborative vision for Cardiff.
“Improvements to public transport play an important role in the development of the city and region.”
Cllr Huw Thomas added: "The Council has set out ambitious plans on how we are investing in Cardiff Bay with the delivery of a new 15,000-seater indoor arena and the Atlantic Wharf Masterplan, which earmarks new housing, office space, hotels and 50,000 sq. m of retail, leisure and cultural space.

"In Cardiff Bay, there are 200 hectares of unused brownfield land for development, but when the Crossrail is extended, this land will start to be unlocked, allowing further investment and growth to take place in both Cardiff Bay and Cardiff East.

"The Crossrail has been a long-held ambition for some time, to provide a cross city tram service that is affordable and reliable for the public to use, and connecting some of Cardiff's poorest communities to the rail network for the first time.

"The first phase will significantly improve public transport from the city centre to Cardiff Bay, providing further capacity for residents and visitors to access the wide range of attractions that Cardiff has to offer."

 

[AdamWW]

Callaghan Square is funded.

Cardiff secures £50m from Levelling Up fund for the first phase of Cardiff Crossrail

Cardiff secures £50m from Levelling Up fund for the first phase of Cardiff Crossrail

www.cardiffnewsroom.co.uk

Good!

 

[anthony263]

Class 398 testing started tonight . 0355 from Taff's well to Radyr then back to Taff's well the final trip and should have some daylight

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jun 2023 ==

Screenshots from realtime trains attached

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2023 ==

398008 and 398009 the 1st units out testing. The coupler covers been painted yellow

 

[Bob Price]

First run was 77 minutes late off the depot.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2023 ==

Here are a couple of Tweets showing two units on the move at Taffs Well

https://twitter.com/SW_MetroUpdates/status/1669495486045192192?t=7y4EueHBk6blzk1wQsZYPg&s=19

 

[AdamWW]

Nice to see that some running has finally started.

Does anyone know why they have splashed some yellow on the ends, and whether it's a temporary measure or not?