Should Didcot to Oxford be electrified to release Turbos for work elsewhere?

[Nick Ashwell]

This is interesting - it's fairly new as Football Stadia goes and has space for expansion, are the football team in desparate need of cash or something?

Not being a proper stadium doesn't help

Actually on topic, it surely makes complete sense to electrify the route if not just to free up Turbos as the OP suggests, as this also frees us 80x (provided they gain EMUs to run a full service to Oxford)

I feel we may end up seeing a GWML upgrade part deuxe in a few years, doing this, via Bath, and in my dreams, the diversionary route via Gloucester

 

[zwk500]

Actually on topic, it surely makes complete sense to electrify the route if not just to free up Turbos as the OP suggests, as this also frees us 80x (provided they gain EMUs to run a full service to Oxford)

I feel we may end up seeing a GWML upgrade part deuxe in a few years, doing this, via Bath, and in my dreams, the diversionary route via Gloucester

The full diversion to Severn Tunnel Jn/Bristol Parkway won't get wires, But Swindon-Gloucester as a branch might well (with or without Cheltenham). Westerleigh-Bromsgrove would wait until XC were ready for Bi-modes/EMUs in earnest.

 

[deltic08]

Limited gains to Westbury, given little terminates there. Bedwyn makes a small amount of sense for the service turning back, but it's still very marginal.
After Didcot-Oxford, I'd say the focus should be on wiring Swindon-Gloucester-Cheltenham-Westerleigh and Chippenham-Bristol (+ Filton bank) for GW services. Bristol suburban would also rank higher than Westbury for me (Severn Beach, Portishead if it happens and maybe Weston-SM).

I agree too that Swindon-Gloucester-Cheltenham should be electrified sooner than later because it also has IETs to/from Paddington almost hourly and regularly from Cardiff to Paddington via Lydney and Gloucester when Severn Tunnel is closed for maintenance.
Not sure about Gloucester to Westerleigh Jnc. Malvern/Gloucester-Bristol/Westbury/Weymouth trains and XC wpuld be unable to use overhead wires as they are still diesel operated and not likely to be all electric or bimodes for some time.
Gloucester-Severn Tunnel Jnc would be used by more electric trains. Cardiff-Gloucester/Cheltenham local trains, diverted Cardiff-Paddington trains and class 99 freight trains as the line carries many more freight trains than Gloucester-Bristol.
That would leave only Cheltenham-Bromsgrove and Birmingham-Derby to electrify and Nottingham-Cardiff and any class 99 hauled freight south of Sheffield would be able to use overhead wires.

 

[Sm5]

Could use the class 379’s on it and running it as an “Oxford Tube” service replacing the bus.

 

[JonathanH]

Could use the class 379’s on it and running it as an “Oxford Tube” service replacing the bus.

Why does the Oxford Tube need to be replaced?

 

[Snow1964]

Bathampton to third rail territory seems a bit far for battery units right now although will likely improve as tech advances. You're better off releasing turbos as the OP suggested and running five car 158s, although with the way they've reformed a large number to two car units again it's unlikely and therefore a downgrade along the core commuter parts of the route

There has been talk (in Western strategy) of continuing the wires via Westbury to Warminster / Frome.

But unless GWR can get some more 387s (or grab the unused 379s) then any extension of the wires is not going to see electric trains extended very far.

I would be looking at getting Oxford done soon, and the incomplete Bristol sections added before turbo lease end date in June 2028

 

[The Planner]

Could use the class 379’s on it and running it as an “Oxford Tube” service replacing the bus.

Different market serving different locations. Would fares be as cheap and would the journey time of someone from say east Oxford getting to the station and then getting to Paddington as it would to Victoria or west London?

 

[Sm5]

Why does the Oxford Tube need to be replaced?

Free market competition.

Thats what we are supposed to have with railways not owned by the state.

Even with GBR, theres no reason why they shouldnt consider the route to be higher marketed, its a popular route.

 

[zwk500]

Free market competition.

Thats what we are supposed to have with railways not owned by the state.

Even with GBR, theres no reason why they shouldnt consider the route to be higher marketed, its a popular route.

The nature of 'competition' is that you don't withdraw competing services, that's the antithesis of the idea. If you want the railway to be competing against the bus, the bus must still be running (otherwise it's like claiming Manchester United are 'competing' against The Wanderers in the FA Cup records).

 

[mangyiscute]

I think that the coach service shows that there is definitely demand for more, longer trains to Oxford - the large student population will mean price is also a big factor when it comes to choosing which mode of transport to use. The coach service will never be replaced imo, because as mentioned it serves a different market as well as end to end passengers.

 

[Bald Rick]

I think that the coach service shows that there is definitely demand for more, longer trains to Oxford

The Oxford tube typically has capacity for 200-300 passengers an hour each way. And takes around 2 hours end to end (some trips are shorter depending where you board / alight either end).

The railway typically provides provides more than 4 times that capacity, with journey times half that (to Paddington) and 1h20 (Marylebone).

If the trains were all full and standing, I’d agree with you. But they’re not.

Advance fares are often cheaper than the coach on the Marylebone route, and not much more than the coach on the Paddington route.

you pays your money and takes your choice.

 

[zwk500]

The Oxford tube typically has capacity for 200-300 passengers an hour each way. And takes around 2 hours end to end (some trips are shorter depending where you board / alight either end).

The railway typically provides provides more than 4 times that capacity, with journey times half that (to Paddington) and 1h20 (Marylebone).

Advance fares are often cheaper than the coach on the Marylebone route, and not much more than the clash on the Paddington route.

you pays your money and takes your choice.

Of course the railway dumps you on the edge of central London leaving you to take the tube or Elizabeth line to finish your journey in while the coach drops you at Marble Arch or Victoria.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course the railway dumps you on the edge of central London leaving you to take the tube or Elizabeth line to finish your journey in while the coach drops you at Marble Arch or Victoria.

Certainly an advantage for tourists, though Paddington+Liz is probably more use if going to the City. I'd suspect that is the rough split.

GWR do also seem to be attempting to price-and-confuse off tourists, with Off Peak restrictions applying on the outward out of London in the evening peak to Oxford which is unusual for journeys of that length in the South East*, though curiously £9 Advances seem to be available on a lot of trains in very high numbers so they could charge more reasonably if they wanted.

(I've often moaned about Paddington being in the sticks, and indeed it is, but the Lizzie makes that far less of an issue, as does the addition of e-bikes to the "Sadiq cycle" fleet! )

* Some ex-NSE TOCs have asymmetric restrictions where there are evening restrictions on the return half of a return to London, but not on the outward half of a return from it, some others have an intermediate off-peak step that's valid in the evening but not the morning e.g. LNR, but few seem to be Anytime only if you want to leave London for a relatively local destination like Oxford from about 1600-1900.

 

[Bald Rick]

Of course the railway dumps you on the edge of central London leaving you to take the tube or Elizabeth line to finish your journey in while the coach drops you at Marble Arch or Victoria.

Depends where you’re going, of course.

 

[zwk500]

Depends where you’re going, of course.

Indeed - the Elizabeth line will be a lot more convenient for some, especially if you're heading for the eastern end of central London, while Victoria is very handy for Westminster/Buck house/Theatre land. Depends what business you have or sights you want to see.

 

[JonathanH]

GWR do also seem to be attempting to price-and-confuse off tourists, with Off Peak restrictions applying on the outward out of London in the evening peak to Oxford which is unusual for journeys of that length in the South East*, though curiously £9 Advances seem to be available on a lot of trains in very high numbers so they could charge more reasonably if they wanted

There have been those restrictions on fast trains to Oxford in the evening peak since the 1980s.

 

[Benjwri]

If the trains were all full and standing, I’d agree with you. But they’re not.

Except they sort of are. The have a local reputation of being always full and standing because the North Cotswold line trains are 5 car and end up extremely busy from Oxford. There isn’t a widely known way to tell if it will be, so people don’t want to take the chance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There have been those restrictions on fast trains to Oxford in the evening peak since the 1980s.

The problem of course now being that there are only fast trains to Oxford; previously there was the option of taking a stopper, and if the electrification was carried out as noted presumably that option would return.

(If I recall, the restriction codes don't exempt the Didcot stoppers and a change to the Radley stopper at Didcot now, in any case)

 

[mangyiscute]

The Oxford tube typically has capacity for 200-300 passengers an hour each way. And takes around 2 hours end to end (some trips are shorter depending where you board / alight either end).

The railway typically provides provides more than 4 times that capacity, with journey times half that (to Paddington) and 1h20 (Marylebone).

If the trains were all full and standing, I’d agree with you. But they’re not.

Advance fares are often cheaper than the coach on the Marylebone route, and not much more than the coach on the Paddington route.

you pays your money and takes your choice.

So then tell me why, when I got to Oxford for uni, almost everyone always recommends people to take the coach rather than the train when travelling to/from London? I'm in the same boat as you, I was like why is everyone saying take the coach, but the students here all seem to think coach is better

 

[Bletchleyite]

So then tell me why, when I got to Oxford for uni, almost everyone always recommends people to take the coach rather than the train when travelling to/from London? I'm in the same boat as you, I was like why is everyone saying take the coach, but the students here all seem to think coach is better

Because for years the train service was utterly appalling and rather expensive. Old habits die hard, but there has certainly been a reduction in the coach service as the rail service has improved with both electrification to Didcot and the added Chiltern service, with the Oxford Bus Company withdrawing theirs entirely, and I recall the Tube isn't as frequent as it once was.

 

[Speed43125]

So then tell me why, when I got to Oxford for uni, almost everyone always recommends people to take the coach rather than the train when travelling to/from London? I'm in the same boat as you, I was like why is everyone saying take the coach, but the students here all seem to think coach is better

I've noticed people saying that too, but if you actually speak to people doing the journey regularly, they usually end up using the train to be honest. I've booked an advance OXF-PAD return on Monday and am expecting to be able to get some work done on the train.* Coach is rubbish in that respect.

As noted, advance rail fares are pretty good for one day in and out journeys. If you plan to stay the night, thats were the coach fare structure comes into your favour massively.

*Not that I think its particularly fair I'm still stuck doing essays in 9th week, but there we go...

 

[Bletchleyite]

As noted, advance rail fares are pretty good for one day in and out journeys. If you plan to stay the night, thats were the coach fare structure comes into your favour massively.

Advance fares are singles so can be used for a stay of any length. Also, the Off Peak period Return is £34.50, which isn't terrible at all for that distance in the South East.

 

[mangyiscute]

I've noticed people saying that too, but if you actually speak to people doing the journey regularly, they usually end up using the train to be honest. I've booked an advance OXF-PAD return on Monday and am expecting to be able to get some work done on the train.* Coach is rubbish in that respect.

As noted, advance rail fares are pretty good for one day in and out journeys. If you plan to stay the night, thats were the coach fare structure comes into your favour massively.

*Not that I think its particularly fair I'm still stuck doing essays in 9th week, but there we go...

That's all true in fairness - I find most people just don't travel out of Oxford during term times.
(I have an exam on friday afternoon 9th week, which i also don't think is very fair)

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's all true in fairness - I find most people just don't travel out of Oxford during term times.
(I have an exam on friday afternoon 9th week, which i also don't think is very fair)

Traditionally, due to the compressed terms and the amount of work required, the university discouraged this anyway, didn't it?

 

[Bald Rick]

Except they sort of are. The have a local reputation of being always full and standing because the North Cotswold line trains are 5 car and end up extremely busy from Oxford. There isn’t a widely known way to tell if it will be, so people don’t want to take the chance.

So then tell me why, when I got to Oxford for uni, almost everyone always recommends people to take the coach rather than the train when travelling to/from London?

I read this as “the trains are too full, so nobody uses them?” Schrödinger’s train?

 

[HSTEd]

It's a pity the (more) direct route between Oxford and PRincess Risborough got lifted and redeveloped, that would probably make Marylebone more competitive.

Then again, if that line was still there I would no doubt be suggesting converting the Chiltern to Elizabeth Line......

As for electrification - I can't see any additional 25kV electrification being approved unless costs can be got under control.

And seems to be precious little evidence of that at the moment, so I'm not hopeful.

 

[12LDA28C]

It's a pity the (more) direct route between Oxford and PRincess Risborough got lifted and redeveloped, that would probably make Marylebone more competitive.

Oxford to Marylebone was more competitive when Chiltern services started running, with running times of just over an hour (just under an hour from/to Oxford Parkway). That level of competition has now been lost with current journey times on Chiltern, sadly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oxford to Marylebone was more competitive when Chiltern services started running, with running times of just over an hour (just under an hour from/to Oxford Parkway). That level of competition has now been lost with current journey times on Chiltern, sadly.

TOCs competing with TOCs is not a sensible use of subsidy.

What is sensible is to widen the market to bring money to rail rather than car (and to a lesser extent coach). Thus GWR provides the more expensive fast option, and Chiltern a cheaper slow option as well as connectivity to "Metro-Land" and surrounds. That's what happened.

 

[Bald Rick]

Then again, if that line was still there I would no doubt be suggesting converting the Chiltern to Elizabeth Line......

I‘d expect nothing less than a Chiltern Shinkansen.

 

[cactustwirly]

The problem of course now being that there are only fast trains to Oxford; previously there was the option of taking a stopper, and if the electrification was carried out as noted presumably that option would return.

(If I recall, the restriction codes don't exempt the Didcot stoppers and a change to the Radley stopper at Didcot now, in any case)

They used to, but they got specifically added in December 2019, basically everything out of Paddington is restricted except the Elizabeth line