WCML vs ECML

[QueensCurve]

Edinburgh benefits greatly from the extension of the slower or Stopping Newcastle services.
Carlisle isn't Newcastle, nor did it have it's terminators to extend.

The Carlisle terminators were extended to Glasgow in December 2008 and Upperby depot closed.

 

[Class 170101]

In some respects is the structure of the WCML timetable correct at weekends?

Does Manchester and Birmingham both need 3tph at weekends and arguably does Birmingham need 3tph on weekdays?

Could changes to the above routes perhaps allow an hourly path via the Trent Valley to run to Edinburgh at weekends?

The East Coast timetable probably only as far back as 10 years ago used to be different at weekends compared to weekdays with half hourly Edinburgh services and only hourly services to Leeds where as on weekdays the reverse was true.

 

[Peter0124]

The fact that Glasgow isn't as good for interchanges north compared with Edinburgh also has something to do with the demand. Should really have only been one main Glasgow terminus rather than two (and run as a through station like Waverley).

Journeys to Inverness would be faster via Glasgow if that was the case (Except for the direct LNER)

 

[BeijingDave]

I think it's reasonable to observe that there are far fewer services between Glasgow and London than between Edinburgh and London - despite Glasgow having a larger population, and a much larger hinterland.

However, there is far more leisure demand between Edinburgh and London, and Edinburgh to London services serve several other large intermediate markets, such as Newcastle and York, whereas Glasgow to London fast services only serve comparitively smaller markets such as the stations from Warrington to Lancaster and the Lake District.

Just a small point about my hometown: Warrington is a lot larger than many people think (211,200 population according to ONS) and York is smaller than people think (201,672 from the same source).

Of course, it's never going to have the tourist market York has (nor would it ever aim for that). But economically it has done well even when the rest of the country is facing hard times, from the 1980s onwards.

It is not a small place, business or population-wise.

Not that I'm offended - I did move away, and it's not the nicest place.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I don't think considering Euston-Scotland via Brum is sensible, it is a combination of Euston-Wolves and Brum-Scotland that saves a diagram and allows longer trains. Though it is sold as a budget alternative for through trips and why not? It's a positive thing, not a negative one.

TRU brings the option of London-Leeds-Scotland to the ECML, making it more like the Euston-Brum-Scotland situation.
The WCML could run Euston-Manchester-Scotland if it wanted, and Euston-Edinburgh direct would be a similar journey time to the ECML.

The HS2 plan was to run Euston-Glasgow/Edinburgh, splitting at Carlisle, but that depended on the Golborne link among other things.
The next dislocation on the WCML will be the resignalling/reconfiguration at Crewe.
If the ECML gets its promised upgrade (to replace the HS2 plan) there will be a multitude of disruptions there.

 

[Krokodil]

You don't, but you lose at least an hour to Glasgow (same as via Midcalder?) and can't serve Edinburgh. And there aren't enough diesel units to provide a decent service.

Yes, of course it is slower. No slower than changing for a rail replacement bus though. No, you can't serve Edinburgh, but lets not let perfection be the enemy of good enough. And I'm well aware of the reasons why it isn't done anymore (primarily because dragging an electric train via a non-electrified route is no longer as simple as swapping an 87 for a 47, and Alstom don't like their units being dragged) but that doesn't alter the fact that bustitution invariably results in a poorer service for the passengers than a divert.

 

[The Planner]

TRU brings the option of London-Leeds-Scotland to the ECML, making it more like the Euston-Brum-Scotland situation.
The WCML could run Euston-Manchester-Scotland if it wanted, and Euston-Edinburgh direct would be a similar journey time to the ECML.

The HS2 plan was to run Euston-Glasgow/Edinburgh, splitting at Carlisle, but that depended on the Golborne link among other things.
The next dislocation on the WCML will be the resignalling/reconfiguration at Crewe.

Which the resignalling of the Independents is incorporating so you can divert and run trains.

 

[philosopher]

In some respects is the structure of the WCML timetable correct at weekends?

Does Manchester and Birmingham both need 3tph at weekends and arguably does Birmingham need 3tph on weekdays?

Could changes to the above routes perhaps allow an hourly path via the Trent Valley to run to Edinburgh at weekends?

The East Coast timetable probably only as far back as 10 years ago used to be different at weekends compared to weekdays with half hourly Edinburgh services and only hourly services to Leeds where as on weekdays the reverse was true.

I can see an argument for Birmingham having two per hour with Avanti as it also gets 2 trains an hour with both LNWR and Chiltern. I have very rarely seen the Birmingham trains full even when they are running 2 per hour.

Manchester less so as Avanti are the only operator on this route.

 

[Watershed]

Just a small point about my hometown: Warrington is a lot larger than many people think (211,200 population according to ONS) and York is smaller than people think (201,672 from the same source).

Of course, it's never going to have the tourist market York has (nor would it ever aim for that). But economically it has done well even when the rest of the country is facing hard times, from the 1980s onwards.

It is not a small place, business or population-wise.

Not that I'm offended - I did move away, and it's not the nicest place.

I'm not saying that Warrington is a one-horse town or anything, but with the best will in the world it has nowhere near the population of Newcastle and the Tyne & Wear hinterland. The fact that there are direct London services from Liverpool, Runcorn, Chester, Manchester, Stockport etc. also means that there is far less railheading than you get at the likes of York, Darlington and Durham, for which there is no comparable alternative.

 

[Some guy]

Don’t forget the west coast has to deal with way more freight which is the main reason they can only path 3 trains per hour between Preston and Scotland. The west coast is far more scenic

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not saying that Warrington is a one-horse town or anything, but with the best will in the world it has nowhere near the population of Newcastle and the Tyne & Wear hinterland. The fact that there are direct London services from Liverpool, Runcorn, Chester, Manchester, Stockport etc. also means that there is far less railheading than you get at the likes of York, Darlington and Durham, for which there is no comparable alternative.

It's also of note that fares are very often considerably cheaper to travel from Preston, Wigan or Warrington to Euston via Manchester due to the frequency of fast trains being three times that direct.

Don’t forget the west coast has to deal with way more freight which is the main reason they can only path 3 trains per hour between Preston and Scotland. The west coast is far more scenic

I always say the WCML is interesting or scenic more or less throughout - you've got suburban London, the Chilterns*, the rolling Northamptonshire and Warwickshire hills, the West Midlands (not pretty but certainly interesting), similar in Cheshire, the North West conurbation (see the West Midlands), Shap (one of the prettiest pieces of railway in the country that hardly anyone has heard of) and more of the same up to Glasgow.

Whereas the ECML is deadly boring south of about Durham or so.

* Views of the Chilterns are much better from the WCML than either Chiltern Line branch.

 

[Boodiggy]

The best mainline in England is still the ECML, higher speed, better scenery, better stations.

The WCML has depots and better trains

Both are 125mph - are a pendo won’t max out at 124mph either! Will go a bit faster before the alarms sound.
Scenery is equally grand and cr@p depending what part of the line you are on. Stations - yeah ECML probably better.

 

[chiltern trev]

Edinburgh benefits greatly from the extension of the slower or Stopping Newcastle services.
Carlisle isn't Newcastle, nor did it have it's terminators to extend.

Carlisle does not have WCML terminators and thus no extensions

 

[greyman42]

Bluntly put, there's generally more tourist / weekend demand for London - Edinburgh than there is London - Glasgow. Certainly Edinburgh is more of a tourist destination (as is York). This is not to say they don't exist on WCML, but perhaps not to the same degree with the same demographic.

Also as mentioned, the engineering works skews the figures.

Trains are running full and standing on the ECML this afternoon, despite there being 3 or 4 per hour.

 

[Davester50]

Trains are running full and standing on the ECML this afternoon, despite there being 3 or 4 per hour.

No surprise.
You just have to look at the latest hotels opened in Edinburgh, and the prices that rooms across the city are going for.

Now I can’t let that slide! Peterborough to Grantham is the best part of the ECML.

Alnmouth to Dunbar says hi.

 

[Krokodil]

Just watched a Liverpool service that was full. Bearing in mind that numbers will be artificially suppressed due to the compulsory reservation fudge, 2TPH can't come fast enough.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If you go back far enough, the East Coast stole a march on the West Coast when BR IC decided to divert the daytime Inverness service to run from King's Cross with a 125mph HST.
The 110mph West Coast could not match that, and also the direct route avoiding Glasgow (via Coatbridge/Cumbernauld) was downgraded with through trains diverted via Edinburgh (reverse).
So what was once a historic WCML/LMS route transferred to the ECML.
Going the other way, the East Coast sleepers to Aberdeen/Fort William were transferred to Euston along with the Inverness service, but via Edinburgh.
BR XC continued to run through to Dundee/Aberdeen on the WCML via Edinburgh.

Post-privatisation, the WCML (VXC) ran to Dundee and Aberdeen, but were cut back to Glasgow/Edinburgh under AXC/TPE, with through AXC services via York (ECML), despite the slower route from Birmingham.
Pendolinos were due to reach Stirling under Virgin after electrification but never started.
Avanti now has bi-modes which could (if DfT so wished) run into central/northern Scotland via the WCML and Edinburgh or direct, but have clearly decided to concentrate on services south of Preston with these non-tilting bi-modes.
The HS2 plan has yet to work itself out, but it did promise Euston-Glasgow/Edinburgh services, splitting at Carlisle.
But the demise of the Golborne link means this is unlikely to happen.

Both routes have their strengths and weaknesses, but it does seem the ECML has the edge at the moment.

 

[Retorus]

Carlisle does not have WCML terminators and thus no extensions

Think you missed their point.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Better scenery? It is boring as sin south of Durham or thereabouts.

I agree

 

[Eastern Farmer]

Alnmouth to Dunbar says hi.

Nah, give me Peterborough to Grantham everyday of the week!

 

[YourMum666]

Both are 125mph - are a pendo won’t max out at 124mph either! Will go a bit faster before the alarms sound.
Scenery is equally grand and cr@p depending what part of the line you are on. Stations - yeah ECML probably better.

When I say higher speed, I mean the ECML has 125mph running for much longer than the west coast, Also the ECML is the quickest way into Scotland

 

[Watershed]

Avanti now has bi-modes which could (if DfT so wished) run into central/northern Scotland via the WCML and Edinburgh or direct, but have clearly decided to concentrate on services south of Preston with these non-tilting bi-modes.

I wouldn't be surprised if the DfT instructed Avanti to introduce a token Stirling service to see off Grand Union (or whatever this week's Ian Yeowart proposal is called!). This looks to have happened with GWR and the additional Carmarthen services they've coincidentally just introduced now that GUT have been authorised to run there.

I'd expect both services to be dropped as soon as the Yeowart venture fails or is dropped, as happened to Grand Central's Blackpool operation.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Also the ECML is the quickest way into Scotland

Is that definitely the case? What are we comparing? The time from Euston to the eight mile marker North of Carlisle or the time from Kings Cross to Marshall Meadows, almost four miles North of Berwick upon Tweed?

Wouldn't have thought there was much in it.

 

[Boodiggy]

When I say higher speed, I mean the ECML has 125mph running for much longer than the west coast, Also the ECML is the quickest way into Scotland

Does it have more 125mph? I have never checked.. I suppose North of Crewe there isn’t much, although some good stretches. Preston - Lancaster and plenty in the Lowlands.

 

[YourMum666]

Does it have more 125mph? I have never checked.. I suppose North of Crewe there isn’t much, although some good stretches. Preston - Lancaster and plenty in the Lowlands.

The ECML has more 125mph running I think, north of York there is a whole 22 mile stretch before it slows down for Darlington and then goes to 115 until Newcastle then past Newcastle goes for 125 before Morpeth and then back to 125 for a bit, same thing with south of York, you have the Selby diversion which is straight 125, through Doncaster is 105, before back up to 125 till Retford which is 100 or 110 through, then 125 to Newark which the limit drops at Newark, 125 to Grantham, then limit drops again, before that 30 mile 125 into Peterborough where oddly enough it drops to 105 through, down round to about Knebworth where there is mainly 125mph running apart from some places

 

[JonathanH]

I wouldn't be surprised if the DfT instructed Avanti to introduce a token Stirling service to see off Grand Union (or whatever this week's Ian Yeowart proposal is called!).

I think if they did, it would have to be an extension of the Glasgow which is the last train off Polmadie running into Glasgow Central via Whifflet, an similarly in the other direction.

Even a blocking move service wouldn't go direct from Cumbernauld to Motherwell as it would be practically empty.

 

[hexagon789]

The ECML has more 125mph running I think, north of York there is a whole 22 mile stretch before it slows down for Darlington and then goes to 115 until Newcastle then past Newcastle goes for 125 before Morpeth and then back to 125 for a bit, same thing with south of York, you have the Selby diversion which is straight 125, through Doncaster is 105, before back up to 125 till Retford which is 100 or 110 through, then 125 to Newark which the limit drops at Newark, 125 to Grantham, then limit drops again, before that 30 mile 125 into Peterborough where oddly enough it drops to 105 through, down round to about Knebworth where there is mainly 125mph running apart from some places

The WCML has the longest unbroken stretch of 125mph, and 125mph running commences much closer to London.

The sinuous nature of the route over Shap may bring the overall % down a bit but like is not being compared with like.

On the WCML, the Glasgow fasts take 4h31-4h32 with 6 stops; on the ECML the Edinburgh fasts take 10-12 mins less yes, but with two fewer calls.

If the Glasgow fasts were fast to, say Preston, it might be a far more equal comparison.

Glasgow is also about eight and a quarter miles further than Edinburgh by its respective route.

 

[Krokodil]

Is that definitely the case? What are we comparing? The time from Euston to the eight mile marker North of Carlisle or the time from Kings Cross to Marshall Meadows, almost four miles North of Berwick upon Tweed?

Wouldn't have thought there was much in it.

Comparing KGX-EDB with EUS-GLC there's only ten minutes in it.

Nothing compared to the 45 minute difference in BHM-EDB timings between XC and the WCML.

 

[YourMum666]

The WCML has the longest unbroken stretch of 125mph, and 125mph running commences much closer to London.

The sinuous nature of the route over Shap may bring the overall % down a bit but like is not being compared with like.

On the WCML, the Glasgow fasts take 4h31-4h32 with 6 stops; on the ECML the Edinburgh fasts take 10-12 mins less yes, but with two fewer calls.

If the Glasgow fasts were fast to, say Preston, it might be a far more equal comparison.

Glasgow is also about eight and a quarter miles further than Edinburgh by its respective route.

What part of the WCML has the longest stretch of continuous 125mph running? I’m intrigued

 

[fisher2511]

It’s historical. The LNER was always better than the LMS.