Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

[GWVillager]

I do not really get the obsession with having doors at the end of carriages. It is how trains used to be, but that does not mean they have to be like that. I find that the motivations for 1/3 and 2/3 on a commuter train do actually apply on long distance too. My only reasons for disliking 150s on the Marches is that they have lower capacities, no air conditioning and nowhere to put luggage. The 158s and 2-car 175s at least rectify the capacity to some extent.

Doors at the end of the coach generally allow for higher capacity, a better travelling environment and a quieter ride as well as saving energy with heating and air conditioning. It's the obvious choice for a service like this that isn't exactly stopping every 2 minutes.

No... the only difference in terms of carriages is a 5-MK4 has 3.5 standard and 1 first, but a 5-197 will have 4.5 standard and 0.5 first. First is very poorly used currently, so I'd say the 197 actually caters to demand better there, offering an additional carriage of standard class accommodation. They also don't have vestibules, so potentially even more space for seats, though I might be clutching at straws with that last bit.

I have to second Luke here, First Class is actually quite well used on many services. Obviously not near standard levels, but enough to justify its existence and I wouldn't be surprised if it's started to make a net positive with the additional meals etc.

 

[sd0733]

No... the only difference in terms of carriages is a 5-MK4 has 3.5 standard and 1 first, but a 5-197 will have 4.5 standard and 0.5 first. First is very poorly used currently, so I'd say the 197 actually caters to demand better there, offering an additional carriage of standard class accommodation. They also don't have vestibules, so potentially even more space for seats, though I might be clutching at straws with that last bitb

First is very popular and on lots of trains people wishing to do on the train upgrades have to be turned away.

That's from starting with almost zero marketing and a fairly non consistent offering so far.

Edit , apologies just saw the other replies saying the same thing!

 

[Topological]

Between Cardiff and Manchester the gaps are:

Cardiff to Newport - 12 minutes
Newport to Cwmbran - 12 minutes
Cwmbran to Abergavenny - 24 minutes (though many also call at Pontypool and New Inn)
Abergavenny to Hereford - 25 minutes
Hereford to Leominster - 12 minutes
Leominster to Ludlow - 11 minutes
Ludlow to Craven Arms - 8 minutes
Craven Arms to Church Stretton - 9 minutes
Church Stretton to Shrewsbury - 15 minutes
Shrewsbury to Crewe* - 30 minutes (most have stops though)
Crewe to Wilmslow - 20 minutes
Wilmslow to Stockport - 11 minutes
Stockport to Manchester Piccadilly - 11 minutes

So even allowing for a more limited stop pattern I do not see long gaps between stations.

If first is proving popular then great, but having taken it myself recently I am not convinced the train would not have been better for having a standard class carriage instead. In my case the net extra revenue was 0 (same price for the standard advance when I booked) and the cost was definitely more than 0. I doubt everyone will be in that position though.

 

[Techniquest]

It did take way too long to advertise on the day upgrades, but it is good to have the option there. I'll be taking advantage of that in due course

 

[Steveswan10]

Hi all just a curiosity question, when TFW decided to increase the use of engine and carriages and use 67+MK4s would've they considered HST's and would've that been a better choice?

 

[craigybagel]

Hi all just a curiosity question, when TFW decided to increase the use of engine and carriages and use 67+MK4s would've they considered HST's and would've that been a better choice?

It was believed to have been considered in Arriva days, but proved too expensive.

Given how poorly the shortened HSTs have turned out at ScotRail, there's no guarantee they would have been a better choice at TfW then the MKIVs - plus the latter being newer should last longer.

There's also the fact that under the original plans there were only going to be 3 sets, so only the existing 67 trained crews would have needed conversion to MKIVs (a course that only takes 3 days for drivers). HSTs would have involved training from scratch. This proved somewhat moot given that with the expansion in the amount of loco hauled services in turn TfW have had to expand the number of loco trained traincrew - which meant putting many drivers through a 3 week course from scratch anyway. But hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

[Steveswan10]

Fair enough and I assume by the time they decide to enlarge the fleet most MK3's were scrapped or too far gone to be viable??

 

[craigybagel]

Fair enough and I assume by the time they decide to enlarge the fleet most MK3's were scrapped or too far gone to be viable??

I think it was more opportunism, extra MKIVs were available with the demise of Grand Centrals planned Blackpool route - so TfW grabbed them. If they hadn't been available, I suspect they'd have stuck with the original plans and we'd only be seeing 197s on Manchester services, and with the 170s being kept and not transferred to EMR.

Incidentally, by the time the MkIIIs were withdrawn at the start of the pandemic, they were pretty knackered. It's hard to see TfW wanting to go back down that route again.

 

[Philip Roberts]

Are the problems more with the 67s than the MkIV? Just wondering if it could be solved by sourcing different locos?

 

[sd0733]

Are the problems more with the 67s than the MkIV? Just wondering if it could be solved by sourcing different locos?

Neither are especially problematic anymore, particularly in service its a long while since any failed. They have faults the same as every other train but as there's no real spare sets the slightest problem means a substitute unit, this happens with all fleets but its more obvious when a 150 subs for a Mk4 set than it is when one subs a 158 or 175. They're few and far between now but there are Still swaps due to lack of crew knowledge, if there's nobody available to cover and the booked driver doesn't sign 67s then the choice is cancel or send a unit out, normally for most of the day to keep the cycle going. It has happened twice this week.
The vast majority of the out of use sets is because the exams on the sets which take place every 11 days the set is out are often taking 3 days rather than the planned 2, there's also a delay in getting some parts.
Most of the exams are carried out at ATC Crewe which means that with 5 sets active, there is 15 days worth of exams to carry out every 11 days. If set is on its exam and another reaches its max days then its out of service waiting its slot. Some have been able to be carried out at Canton but generally they're at Capacity too.
A new regime is being implemented where, after a heavier B exam the sets can run for 28 days rather than the original 11 which should lighten the load and should in effect double to amount of available sets. HD01 is the first through that and it now has 28 calender days between exams rather than 11 service days.
There's currently 4 diagrams for 5 sets, the 5th is on maintenance so any issue knocks a diagram out.
A large supply of parts is also making its way into the system now which should also reduce Downtime.

For example today HD04 is on its exam at Crewe until Sunday and will be released for 5V33 on Monday morning, HD02 is on Canton for tyre turning, neither of those are faulty but it means only 3 sets available for the 4 diagrams.

Once HD03 and 07 are available there will be 5 diagrams but from 7 sets giving one on maintenance and one on repair/spare at any time. There's also a possibility of HD08 being introduced which would then able 6 diagrams from 8, again giving an extra out of Service rake.
Effectively at the moment it requires 100% availability to Cover all diagrams.

The locos are now going for a suite of Mods as well. 67013 ran to Crewe ETD on Thursday for a C exam and to become the first through these 'Reliability mods' which will implement things learnt in service.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Hi all just a curiosity question, when TFW decided to increase the use of engine and carriages and use 67+MK4s would've they considered HST's and would've that been a better choice?

ATW were using (at WG request and expense) a single 67+Mk3 round trip on Holyhead-Cardiff Premier service in the last franchise.
This was very inefficient so they decided for the new franchise to go with ex-LNER 67+Mk4, with enough sets for 3 round trips daily Holyhead-Cardiff - the Manchester route was down for 5-car 197s (2+3 car) north of Cardiff.
Then the GC Mk4s became available, so WG bought these sets to upgrade half the Manchester service (the other half remaining 197).
67s have worked with Mk4s for decades on the ECML, but not in push-pull mode which seems where the problems lie.
TfW has spent the last two years trying to get its LHCS assets into a consistent shape (with 5-car sets now required rather than 4-car).
Adding a new locomotive type wouldn't really help, and 67s are cheap assets unlike brand new 68s or newer locos.
I think TfW dodged a bullet by not opting for redundant HSTs where reliability is on a falling curve.
They will probably get 10-15 more years out of the Mk4s.
But they are not there yet.

 

[Envoy]

Neither are especially problematic anymore, particularly in service its a long while since any failed. They have faults the same as every other train but as there's no real spare sets the slightest problem means a substitute unit, this happens with all fleets but its more obvious when a 150 subs for a Mk4 set than it is when one subs a 158 or 175. They're few and far between now but there are Still swaps due to lack of crew knowledge, if there's nobody available to cover and the booked driver doesn't sign 67s then the choice is cancel or send a unit out, normally for most of the day to keep the cycle going. It has happened twice this week.
The vast majority of the out of use sets is because the exams on the sets which take place every 11 days the set is out are often taking 3 days rather than the planned 2, there's also a delay in getting some parts.
Most of the exams are carried out at ATC Crewe which means that with 5 sets active, there is 15 days worth of exams to carry out every 11 days. If set is on its exam and another reaches its max days then its out of service waiting its slot. Some have been able to be carried out at Canton but generally they're at Capacity too.
A new regime is being implemented where, after a heavier B exam the sets can run for 28 days rather than the original 11 which should lighten the load and should in effect double to amount of available sets. HD01 is the first through that and it now has 28 calender days between exams rather than 11 service days.
There's currently 4 diagrams for 5 sets, the 5th is on maintenance so any issue knocks a diagram out.
A large supply of parts is also making its way into the system now which should also reduce Downtime.

For example today HD04 is on its exam at Crewe until Sunday and will be released for 5V33 on Monday morning, HD02 is on Canton for tyre turning, neither of those are faulty but it means only 3 sets available for the 4 diagrams.

Once HD03 and 07 are available there will be 5 diagrams but from 7 sets giving one on maintenance and one on repair/spare at any time. There's also a possibility of HD08 being introduced which would then able 6 diagrams from 8, again giving an extra out of Service rake.
Effectively at the moment it requires 100% availability to Cover all diagrams.

The locos are now going for a suite of Mods as well. 67013 ran to Crewe ETD on Thursday for a C exam and to become the first through these 'Reliability mods' which will implement things learnt in service.

Many thanks for taking the time to give us a detailed explanation of what is going on.

 

[berneyarms]

Neither are especially problematic anymore, particularly in service its a long while since any failed. They have faults the same as every other train but as there's no real spare sets the slightest problem means a substitute unit, this happens with all fleets but its more obvious when a 150 subs for a Mk4 set than it is when one subs a 158 or 175. They're few and far between now but there are Still swaps due to lack of crew knowledge, if there's nobody available to cover and the booked driver doesn't sign 67s then the choice is cancel or send a unit out, normally for most of the day to keep the cycle going. It has happened twice this week.
The vast majority of the out of use sets is because the exams on the sets which take place every 11 days the set is out are often taking 3 days rather than the planned 2, there's also a delay in getting some parts.
Most of the exams are carried out at ATC Crewe which means that with 5 sets active, there is 15 days worth of exams to carry out every 11 days. If set is on its exam and another reaches its max days then its out of service waiting its slot. Some have been able to be carried out at Canton but generally they're at Capacity too.
A new regime is being implemented where, after a heavier B exam the sets can run for 28 days rather than the original 11 which should lighten the load and should in effect double to amount of available sets. HD01 is the first through that and it now has 28 calender days between exams rather than 11 service days.
There's currently 4 diagrams for 5 sets, the 5th is on maintenance so any issue knocks a diagram out.
A large supply of parts is also making its way into the system now which should also reduce Downtime.

For example today HD04 is on its exam at Crewe until Sunday and will be released for 5V33 on Monday morning, HD02 is on Canton for tyre turning, neither of those are faulty but it means only 3 sets available for the 4 diagrams.

Once HD03 and 07 are available there will be 5 diagrams but from 7 sets giving one on maintenance and one on repair/spare at any time. There's also a possibility of HD08 being introduced which would then able 6 diagrams from 8, again giving an extra out of Service rake.
Effectively at the moment it requires 100% availability to Cover all diagrams.

The locos are now going for a suite of Mods as well. 67013 ran to Crewe ETD on Thursday for a C exam and to become the first through these 'Reliability mods' which will implement things learnt in service.

Thanks so much for this.

It just brings home how far from simple implementing a new sub-fleet like this is for an operator.

I certainly think having eight sets would be worthwhile (looking at Iarnród Éireann’s CAF Mark 4 fleet) where normally 6 sets out of 8 would be operational on any day, albeit with one of those coming out to play late in the day.

You really don’t want to be too tight in utilisation - wriggle room is important.

But hopefully TfW are turning a corner and reliability and availability of the Mark 4 sets will improve.

 

[rjames87]

I presume it’s still not too late to order more 197s, should there be funding etc?

 

[GWVillager]

I presume it’s still not too late to order more 197s, should there be funding etc?

I don't see why they'd do it. They've put a lot of effort and money into the Mk4s and they won't want to lose that, and a new 197 order would take some time to deliver, even if it would be pragmatic to boost capacity on the North Wales Coastal etc.

Edit: The 197s will be on CAF's books for some time so I suppose, theoretically, more could be ordered. I just don't think they'll do it.

 

[Philip Roberts]

Neither are especially problematic anymore, particularly in service its a long while since any failed. They have faults the same as every other train but as there's no real spare sets the slightest problem means a substitute unit, this happens with all fleets but its more obvious when a 150 subs for a Mk4 set than it is when one subs a 158 or 175. They're few and far between now but there are Still swaps due to lack of crew knowledge, if there's nobody available to cover and the booked driver doesn't sign 67s then the choice is cancel or send a unit out, normally for most of the day to keep the cycle going. It has happened twice this week.
The vast majority of the out of use sets is because the exams on the sets which take place every 11 days the set is out are often taking 3 days rather than the planned 2, there's also a delay in getting some parts.
Most of the exams are carried out at ATC Crewe which means that with 5 sets active, there is 15 days worth of exams to carry out every 11 days. If set is on its exam and another reaches its max days then its out of service waiting its slot. Some have been able to be carried out at Canton but generally they're at Capacity too.
A new regime is being implemented where, after a heavier B exam the sets can run for 28 days rather than the original 11 which should lighten the load and should in effect double to amount of available sets. HD01 is the first through that and it now has 28 calender days between exams rather than 11 service days.
There's currently 4 diagrams for 5 sets, the 5th is on maintenance so any issue knocks a diagram out.
A large supply of parts is also making its way into the system now which should also reduce Downtime.

For example today HD04 is on its exam at Crewe until Sunday and will be released for 5V33 on Monday morning, HD02 is on Canton for tyre turning, neither of those are faulty but it means only 3 sets available for the 4 diagrams.

Once HD03 and 07 are available there will be 5 diagrams but from 7 sets giving one on maintenance and one on repair/spare at any time. There's also a possibility of HD08 being introduced which would then able 6 diagrams from 8, again giving an extra out of Service rake.
Effectively at the moment it requires 100% availability to Cover all diagrams.

The locos are now going for a suite of Mods as well. 67013 ran to Crewe ETD on Thursday for a C exam and to become the first through these 'Reliability mods' which will implement things learnt in service.

Thanks for this. Makes much more sense now

 

[Rhydgaled]

ATW were using (at WG request and expense) a single 67+Mk3 round trip on Holyhead-Cardiff Premier service in the last franchise.
This was very inefficient so they decided for the new franchise to go with ex-LNER 67+Mk4, with enough sets for 3 round trips daily Holyhead-Cardiff - the Manchester route was down for 5-car 197s (2+3 car) north of Cardiff.

Do I recall correctly that ATW had three sets of mark 3s (two with buffet, one without) by the end of the franchise to cover two Mon-Fri diagrams (the Holyhead-Cardiff as you say plus a Manchester-Holyhead crowdbuster)? In that respect the new franchise starting out with three mark 4 sets was simply a one-for-one replacement in terms of LHCS except that instead of the Manchester-Holyhead they concentrated the 2 LHCS diagrams on Holyhead-Cardiff.

 

[craigybagel]

Do I recall correctly that ATW had three sets of mark 3s (two with buffet, one without) by the end of the franchise to cover two Mon-Fri diagrams (the Holyhead-Cardiff as you say plus a Manchester-Holyhead crowdbuster)? In that respect the new franchise starting out with three mark 4 sets was simply a one-for-one replacement in terms of LHCS except that instead of the Manchester-Holyhead they concentrated the 2 LHCS diagrams on Holyhead-Cardiff.

Pretty much - though in reality the MKIIIs were rarely in good enough condition to be able to provide 3 full sets in service, and if one set failed there wasn't a spare to replace it - the diagram would be covered by a unit until the set could be repaired.

 

[Krokodil]

It's like they're trying to deliberately appease old-school enthusiasts, which if true, suggests some TOCs need to sort their priorities out, frankly.

The original scheme with Holyhead-Cardiff was to appease AMs. Running them to Manchester is to try and increase revenue from the business travel market. It's TfW's most lucrative route.

and instead one coach of standard will be marooned the other side of first class. This will of course create similar issues to running a pair of non-gangwayed units (such as 175s) in multiple.

Hardly. It's a minor nuisance, you're not stranding the guard in one set with no access to the other.

imagine they might return when the 197s are fully rolled out so it's consistent what you get on a given service.

Got to persuade the 197 reservation system to work first.

I do not really get the obsession with having doors at the end of carriages.

Ever been on a 197 on a hot day? The aircon can't cope as it is, even before you open doors every ten minutes and try to air condition the whole of Flintshire.

Hi all just a curiosity question, when TFW decided to increase the use of engine and carriages and use 67+MK4s would've they considered HST's and would've that been a better choice?

HSTs were considered at the franchising stage, but they would take too long to convert to power doors. Ironic really, given how long it took to bring the Mk4s into traffic (even allowing for the pandemic).

HSTs would have involved training from scratch.

Not for depots that already signed the 67s. One week conversion instead of 3.

Pretty much - though in reality the MKIIIs were rarely in good enough condition to be able to provide 3 full sets in service, and if one set failed there wasn't a spare to replace it - the diagram would be covered by a unit until the set could be repaired.

They weren't permanently formed into three sets anyway, coaches could be swapped about at will, unlike the policy with the Mk4s. A DVT and five TSOs were outstabled at Crewe, allowing one spare coach to be available though even then short-forms weren't uncommon. Occasionally coaches would be transferred between ATC and Canton. Mk4s on the other hand are now being treated as if they are bar-coupled multiple units.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

No new stock has been ordered by any TOC since the start of Covid, with the exception of HS2 stock which is still in the development phase (production has yet to start).
Several DMU procurement options are being pursued by TOCs which might result in orders for CAF Civitys, but no orders seem at all imminent while off-lease DMU/DEMU stocks are potentially available.
TfW can by-pass the DfT controls on expenditure, but that doesn't mean the WG will be interested in further spend on rolling stock while the very large investment already made is still not delivering results.
Also CAF will need work to keep its Newport facility going after another year of 196/197 production.
But are diesel-only trains a viable proposition to order in 2023?
More Stadler 231s are another option.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

No new stock has been ordered by any TOC since the start of Covid, with the exception of HS2 stock which is still in the development phase (production has yet to start).
Several DMU procurement options are being pursued by TOCs which might result in orders for CAF Civitys, but no orders seem at all imminent while off-lease DMU/DEMU stocks are potentially available.
TfW can by-pass the DfT controls on expenditure, but that doesn't mean the WG will be interested in further spend on rolling stock while the very large investment already made is still not delivering results.
Also CAF will need work to keep its Newport facility going after another year of 196/197 production.
But are diesel-only trains a viable proposition to order in 2023?
More Stadler 231s are another option.

Northern have been setting up their Sprinter's death since January, that's an order that could come through soon (if not already set up behind the scenes).

 

[craigybagel]

Not for depots that already signed the 67s. One week conversion instead of 3.

That was optimistic.

They weren't permanently formed into three sets anyway, coaches could be swapped about at will, unlike the policy with the Mk4s. A DVT and five TSOs were outstabled at Crewe, allowing one spare coach to be available though even then short-forms weren't uncommon. Occasionally coaches would be transferred between ATC and Canton. Mk4s on the other hand are now being treated as if they are bar-coupled multiple units.

Indeed, I was involved in a transfer myself. One thing we're deprived of with the MKIVs is the joy of driving with just a DVT and a 67 attached

They can at least swap out the locos - and various parts of the daily prep take into account the fact there might be a different loco attached.

 

[Plasmanoodle]

I notice the 1L04 0555 from Swansea to Manchester was/is a Mark 4 set this morning. Is that the first time it has run this service?

 

[sd0733]

I notice the 1L04 0555 from Swansea to Manchester was/is a Mark 4 set this morning. Is that the first time it has run this service?

The diagrams have swapped around today, not totally sure if it's permanent or not. Think you've got the wrong Headcode there tho the Mk4 is on 05:36 off Swansea as 1W13. The set is then booked onto the 10:30 from Manchester, 14:49 Cardiff Manchester and 18:30 return.

1W11/1V37/1W19/1V50 have reverted to a booked 150.

HD02 not completed its tyre turning so a diagram is a unit today.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

The diagrams have swapped around today, not totally sure if it's permanent or not. Think you've got the wrong Headcode there tho the Mk4 is on 05:36 off Swansea as 1W13. The set is then booked onto the 10:30 from Manchester, 14:49 Cardiff Manchester and 18:30 return.

1W11/1V37/1W19/1V50 have reverted to a booked 150.

HD02 not completed its tyre turning so a diagram is a unit today.

Will it not be altered in order to form W96 this evening like the other Cardiff starter has been temporarily?

 

[sd0733]

Will it not be altered in order to form W96 this evening like the other Cardiff starter has been temporarily?

1W96 is formed off 1V33 today after a few hours on Canton.

It.means the Canton set starts and finishes there every day so would think it will be temporary on these diagrams and swap back the usual ones pretty soon

 

[Topological]

They can feel free to leave the Mk4 on 1W13 tomorrow

To be honest I am usually just happy if 1W13 runs from Swansea to Manchester, but it was nice to see a Mk4 on it today instead of a 150.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

1W96 is formed off 1V33 today after a few hours on Canton.

It.means the Canton set starts and finishes there every day so would think it will be temporary on these diagrams and swap back the usual ones pretty soon

Thanks.

 

[ABB125]

They can at least swap out the locos - and various parts of the daily prep take into account the fact there might be a different loco attached.

Out of interest, why would a different locomotive need different prep? Surely they're all the same, and the same process can be used for all?

 

[Krokodil]

Out of interest, why would a different locomotive need different prep? Surely they're all the same, and the same process can be used for all?

It's not that it's a different loco, it's that swapping them over will involve coupling and uncoupling and you therefore need to check that this has been done properly, in particular that the multiple working jumpers are functioning.

I can recall a couple of occasions where the Manchester Mk3 set went backwards when driven from the DVT. A notice went up at ATC Crewe to the effect that a forward & reverse test should be done before the set leaves the shed.