No access to platform until 20 min before departure

[stephen rp]

An "incident" is delaying all trains. The train I'm booked on has left starting point late - enough to guarantee I'll get money back - but the barriers won't let me on to try and get the previous train (already late). The "assistant" on the barriers will not bend the rules. Would you accept jobsworth "lack of assistance", or jump the barrier, or buy a ticket to the nearest station?

 

[Bletchleyite]

An "incident" is delaying all trains. The train I'm booked on has left starting point late - enough to guarantee I'll get money back - but the barriers won't let me on to try and get the previous train (already late). The "assistant" on the barriers will not bend the rules. Would you accept jobsworth "lack of assistance", or jump the barrier, or buy a ticket to the nearest station?

Do not jump the barrier or short-fare. Both of these are criminal offences for which you could be prosecuted.

I'm surprised the gateline won't let you in for the original departure time, they aren't clever enough to pick up delays, are they?

What station is this?

 

[Ediswan]

Do not jump the barrier or short-fare.

I read that as using a new ticket to get through the barrier, then arguing the case for their original ticket with staff on the earlier train (rather than the barrier staff).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I read that as using a new ticket to get through the barrier, then arguing the case for their original ticket with staff on the earlier train (rather than the barrier staff)

Still a risk of at least having to negotiate a settlement etc, particularly as the staff who didn't let the OP through will be looking out for it.

 

[yorkie]

An "incident" is delaying all trains. The train I'm booked on has left starting point late - enough to guarantee I'll get money back - but the barriers won't let me on to try and get the previous train (already late). The "assistant" on the barriers will not bend the rules. Would you accept jobsworth "lack of assistance", or jump the barrier, or buy a ticket to the nearest station?

What journey are you making and what train are you booked on? Do you have any connections to make?

Are you desperate to minimise delay (e.g. to make an appointment) even if it means you incur additional costs?

 

[AlterEgo]

An "incident" is delaying all trains. The train I'm booked on has left starting point late - enough to guarantee I'll get money back - but the barriers won't let me on to try and get the previous train (already late). The "assistant" on the barriers will not bend the rules. Would you accept jobsworth "lack of assistance", or jump the barrier, or buy a ticket to the nearest station?

Difficult to say without context really. Would depend on how delayed this action would make me.

 

[Watershed]

The Advance terms and conditions state (condition 5.2):

If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.

Of course, I'm sure that most TOCs would try their best to wriggle out of honouring that - but I read that as clearly permitting you to take an earlier train if your booked one is delayed.

 

[stephen rp]

I'm not giving specific details. Let's just say we did get the earlier train which was 40 late and got us to destination 20 mins early. If we'd not got on it, our booked train was 105 late.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not giving specific details

Then we aren't really able to help to any significant extent.

For instance, had you said it was Blackpool North, we'd collectively sigh and say "we know". But if it was e.g. Manchester Piccadilly we'd be surprised.

 

[richw]

The Advance terms and conditions state (condition 5.2):


Of course, I'm sure that most TOCs would try their best to wriggle out of honouring that - but I read that as clearly permitting you to take an earlier train if your booked one is delayed.

The term says next. It isn’t ‘next’. There is enough info to know the train they are trying to catch is 20 mins earlier than their scheduled service.
Therefore no grounds to use his ticket on the previous service without authorising. Gateline has declined.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The term says next. It isn’t ‘next’. There is enough info to know the train they are trying to catch is 20 mins earlier than their scheduled service.
Therefore no grounds to use his ticket on the previous service without authorising. Gateline has declined.

The next train is the one that is going to arrive at the station I'm waiting at first. If it doesn't define next, a Court would go back to the "man on the Clapham omnibus" definition which is that.

I suspect the intention of that passage is that it allows for the following connecting train to be taken if the original has been missed, but if they wanted to say just that they should have done so more explicitly, as a Court would look at what they did say, not what they wanted to say.

 

[CompactDstrxion]

The Advance terms and conditions state (condition 5.2):
If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey.

Of course, I'm sure that most TOCs would try their best to wriggle out of honouring that - but I read that as clearly permitting you to take an earlier train if your booked one is delayed.

But you aren't travelling yet if you haven't departed your origin station. Condition 5.2 seems aimed at honouring connections.

 

[stephen rp]

But you aren't travelling yet if you haven't departed your origin station. Condition 5.2 seems aimed at honouring connections.

I was travelling. The train I was booked on was delayed on departure with good reason to expect it would be further delayed before it got to my starting point let alone my destination (maybe not by nearly two hours).

 

[CompactDstrxion]

I was travelling. The train I was booked on was delayed on departure with good reason to expect it would be further delayed before it got to my starting point let alone my destination (maybe not by nearly two hours).

You were at your origin station and your journey had not yet begun therefore you were not travelling at the time.

But I've just seen 8.4 in the advance ticket conditions which looks more directly applicable to your situation.

If the train you purchased a ticket for is cancelled or is delayed and you still decide to travel, special arrangements will be made to accommodate you on another train (although a seat cannot be guaranteed).

 

[stephen rp]

If the train you purchased a ticket for is cancelled or is delayed and you still decide to travel, special arrangements will be made to accommodate you on another train (although a seat cannot be guaranteed).

If only I'd had that to hand when arguing with the "assistant"...

 

[AlterEgo]

Ultimately it's just boneheaded customer service not to simply authorise travel on an earlier train where the passenger is going to be significantly delayed.

A passenger on his way is a problem you don't have to deal with any more. One for the "how hard would you like to make your job today?" folder.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ultimately it's just boneheaded customer service not to simply authorise travel on an earlier train where the passenger is going to be significantly delayed.

A passenger on his way is a problem you don't have to deal with any more. One for the "how hard would you like to make your job today?" folder.

This is why I can't help but think the station involved might be Blackpool North, they are masters at that.

 

[CompactDstrxion]

This is why I can't help but think the station involved might be Blackpool North, they are masters at that.

It won't be Blackpool North as the station in this case was not the starting point for the train.

 

[wilbers]

This is why I can't help but think the station involved might be Blackpool North, they are masters at that.

Apart from it isn't since all trains round about then departed on time.

 

[richw]

The next train is the one that is going to arrive at the station I'm waiting at first. If it doesn't define next, a Court would go back to the "man on the Clapham omnibus" definition which is that.

I suspect the intention of that passage is that it allows for the following connecting train to be taken if the original has been missed, but if they wanted to say just that they should have done so more explicitly, as a Court would look at what they did say, not what they wanted to say.

If his booked train is at 1300 and delayed, is the 1240 the next train. No it isn’t.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If his booked train is at 1300 and delayed, is the 1240 the next train. No it isn’t.

If I am standing on a platform, "the next train to X" is the one which arrives at the platform before any other one does. That's "the man on the Clapham omnibus" definition.

That may not be what they intended by writing that, it's incredibly sloppy. But a Court will judge based on what they DID write, with any ambiguity assumed to be in favour of the consumer, not what they wanted to write.

If they meant to say, as I suspect they did, "If delays during your journey mean you miss a connection, you may take the next available train by the booked train operating company to continue your journey", then they should have written that.

 

[Watershed]

You were at your origin station and your journey had not yet begun therefore you were not travelling at the time.

Your journey clearly starts once you get to your origin station - you can commit an offence under RoRA or the Byelaws without even stepping foot on a train, for instance. Imagine you were at an airport, waiting at the gate for your flight. Could anyone seriously claim you hadn't started your journey yet? I don't think it's really a sustainable argument.

But I've just seen 8.4 in the advance ticket conditions which looks more directly applicable to your situation.

That's another angle, yes. Overall it makes clear that forcing the passenger to wait for their booked train to turn up, whenever that may be, is not acceptable.

If his booked train is at 1300 and delayed, is the 1240 the next train. No it isn’t.

The wording is actually "next available"; the inclusion of the word "available" makes clear that live running and the actual state of services must be considered, and not just the timetable.

If you are at the station in time to catch the 12:40, then yes, it is the "next available" service notwithstanding the fact that it may have been timetabled to leave earlier.

Imagine if the 12:40 were delayed to 13:02 and the 13:00 to 13:10 - no sane person would say the delayed 12:40 wasn't the "next available train".

If I am standing on a platform, "the next train to X" is the one which arrives at the platform before any other one does. That's "the man on the Clapham omnibus" definition.

That may not be what they intended by writing that, it's incredibly sloppy. But a Court will judge based on what they DID write, with any ambiguity assumed to be in favour of the consumer, not what they wanted to write.

If they meant to say, as I suspect they did, "If delays during your journey mean you miss a connection, you may take the next available train by the booked train operating company to continue your journey", then they should have written that.

Precisely. It's sloppy wording, as is endemic throughout important legal wording used by the industry - but TOCs can't try and hide behind that, much as they might try (I recently had TfW try and claim much the same to me; I wasn't in a hurry, so I was quite happy to follow their "advice" and avoidably incur them Delay Repay liability!).

 

[daveo]

You were at your origin station and your journey had not yet begun therefore you were not travelling at the time.

More "railway logic" - in normal English the OP was travelling from the moment they left their accommodation.

 

[Starmill]

If his booked train is at 1300 and delayed, is the 1240 the next train. No it isn’t.

If you're at the station at 1230 and there's a 1240 then it's the next available train. Hope this helps.

You were at your origin station and your journey had not yet begun therefore you were not travelling at the time.

Really? Who says - can you point me to a definition in the conditions please as you seem certain you're correct?

 

[zwk500]

If his booked train is at 1300 and delayed, is the 1240 the next train. No it isn’t.

By any reasonable definition, if you're on the platform at 1300 and the next train to arrive is the delayed 1240 running 25L, it's the next train.

 

[Starmill]

An "incident" is delaying all trains. The train I'm booked on has left starting point late - enough to guarantee I'll get money back - but the barriers won't let me on to try and get the previous train (already late). The "assistant" on the barriers will not bend the rules. Would you accept jobsworth "lack of assistance", or jump the barrier, or buy a ticket to the nearest station?

Submit a complaint to the train operator. Little else you can do.

 

[yorkie]

The term says next. It isn’t ‘next’. There is enough info to know the train they are trying to catch is 20 mins earlier than their scheduled service.
Therefore no grounds to use his ticket on the previous service without authorising. Gateline has declined.

I don't agree with your interpretation. This also doesn't make any sense because it would put the company in breach of their obligations under the PRO, as well as increasing their liabilities to pay compensation.

I would say such a person is a "jobsworth" except that's not quite correct, as a "jobsworth" is someone who does their job to the letter defying common sense, but this isn't doing the job correctly to begin with!

 

[The exile]

You were at your origin station and your journey had not yet begun therefore you were not travelling at the time.

This argument has the potential to be “interesting” if return ticketing is genuinely abandoned. People trying to commence a return journey from somewhere they don’t live. “Sorry, your journey hasn’t begun”.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This argument has the potential to be “interesting” if return ticketing is genuinely abandoned. People trying to commence a return journey from somewhere they don’t live. “Sorry, your journey hasn’t begun”.

Most people make long distance journeys on Advances these days, and Advances are only sold as singles.

I've not even heard of Ryanair doing that, let alone the railway.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I always took the view that not only did it get the customer on their way and minimise delay it also got them out of my hair.