Missing submersible near wreck of Titanic

[Intercity110]

well, i'll take anything at this stage

 

[Class15]

What are the chances of the people on board being saved?

 

[Lucan]

Apparently tapping has been heard and has been interpreted as signs of life.

An expert on the TV news said there was a convention in these situations of tapping on the every hour and half hour, so the regularity distinguishes it from whale clicks etc. Tapping is common sense, but I had never heard of the half-hour convention, which sounds an awful long time apart to me, and an interval hard to judge in the dark. Tapping SOS in morse and counting to say 100 between would be more effective*. I believe morse tapping communication was used during the HMS Thetis disaster - a submarine that sank in shallow water off the North Wales coast in 1939.

The pictures I have seen of the Titan seem to show it has no lifting eyes on the top for crane hooks. That will make recovery far more difficult - who designed this stuff? So even after they find the sub it will be a major operation in itself to get it up, possibly requiring slings to be passed underneath - I have experience at sea and of operating cranes and I know the issues. I'm sure they will find and recover it eventually, but it will not be a quick job.

* I understand that signal professionals are not taught morse these days, being considered old-fashioned. I guess SOS would be recognised though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What are the chances of the people on board being saved?

Realistically extremely low, sadly.

If they had say two weeks of air it might be feasible, but they've only got about a day's worth left now. Consider the Thai kids in the cave - they could basically stay there for weeks on end while a safe way to extricate them was devised and tested. The air was finite there but there was a lot more than in this capsule as the cave was quite large. The situation will have been boring and scary for them but it wasn't dangerous per se - indeed one consideration was actually for them to stay there for a few months until the water level naturally subsided! (In that case divers would have taken in food, fresh water, educational materials etc for them and I guess taken human waste out).

 

[Iskra]

An expert on the TV news said there was a convention in these situations of tapping on the every hour and half hour, so the regularity distinguishes it from whale clicks etc. Tapping is common sense, but I had never heard of the half-hour convention, which sounds an awful long time apart to me, and an interval hard to judge in the dark. Tapping SOS in morse and counting to say 100 between would be more effective*. I believe morse tapping communication was used during the HMS Thetis disaster - a submarine that sank in shallow water off the North Wales coast in 1939.

The pictures I have seen of the Titan seem to show it has no lifting eyes on the top for crane hooks. That will make recovery far more difficult - who designed this stuff? So even after they find the sub it will be a major operation in itself to get it up, possibly requiring slings to be passed underneath - I have experience at sea and of operating cranes and I know the issues. I'm sure they will find and recover it eventually, but it will not be a quick job.

* I understand that signal professionals are not taught morse these days, being considered old-fashioned. I guess SOS would be recognised though.

In terms of time interval and light, you’d just use mobile phones one after the other until all batteries expire.

Agree it’s daft not having anywhere for a hook to easily attach.

The one positive of this situation may be greater regulation of this type of craft and industry to prevent such incidents again in the future and to make extraction easier.

What are the chances of the people on board being saved?

Very slim

 

[Gloster]

The banging at regular intervals suggest a human agency and the various layers in the sea mean that it is possible that the submersible is either on or close to the surface. However, if it is on the surface it strikes me as unlikely that sonar triangulation has not yet narrowed the location down to a very small area as the noise has been going for at least twelve hours, albeit intermittently (but three minutes should be enough if you are waiting for the sound); if the submersible can’t make it right to the surface the situation is still serious. I read that the submersible is not fitted with a location beacon and it is unclear if it had radar reflectors fitted to the top of the hull; they could be wallowing on the surface with the air running out, but no way of attracting attention.

I find it incredible that contact was lost with the submersible at 13.45 GMT and it should have surfaced at 19.00, but the alarm was only sounded at 21.40. As the submersible had no navigation equipment and was reliant on the mother ship for navigation, surely they did not expect it to continue its trip? (How could it find the Titanic without guidance?) One would expect that the submersible would immediately return to the surface and the alarm should have been sounded once it had failed to surface two hours (say) after the loss of contact. Or did they think it had surfaced somewhere and were looking for it?

 

[GatwickDepress]

The capsule’s controller is an off the shelf Logitech handheld console controller from 2005, which runs on AA batteries…


Also check out the ballast arrangement. https://twitter.com/birdtickler/status/1671002901064425472?s=46&t=C95SbugdUjpqXvyxmN2jvA

There's nothing wrong with using controllers, the US military uses Xbox controllers for various bits of kit due to their familiarity and Windows compatibility, but a wireless one just adds so much more unneeded risk. What happens if the controller just refuses to sync? What happens if the batteries die or leak? Do they keep a spare controller in a locker if a button stops working?

This video popped up in my YouTube feed:

It's not a channel I'm familiar with, but if accurate it doesn't sound good for those on board. Key points being the lack of emergency oxygen supply in the event of things going wrong, and the inability to vent any toxic gases which may accumulate within the submersible. Meanwhile as of a few hours ago the US Coastguard are (at least publicly) slightly more optimistic, suggesting that the occupants have around 40 hours of oxygen remaining... that sounds a lot considering the number of occupants on board and the relatively small size of the hull. My suspicion though is that the submersible has suffered some sort of catastrophic failure.

That there were no submarine experts on staff and the emphasis on hiring young people is quite shocking. I have no doubt that's nothing to do with enthusiasm and potential or whatever nonsense he spouted, and instead everything to do with paying them peanuts.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's nothing wrong with using controllers, the US military uses Xbox controllers for various bits of kit due to their familiarity and Windows compatibility, but a wireless one just adds so much more unneeded risk. What happens if the controller just refuses to sync? What happens if the batteries die or leak? Do they keep a spare controller in a locker if a button stops working?

Three, I believe, watch the video you attached!

 

[Ediswan]

As the submersible had no navigation equipment

Are you sure ? In the video linked by other posts, the one thing the presenter is complimentary about is the navigation system (at 3:20).

 

[GatwickDepress]

Three, I believe, watch the video you attached!

In my defence, I was listening to it whilst I was writing a report in my lunch break.

 

[Gloster]

Are you sure ? In the video linked by other posts, the one thing the presenter is complimentary about is the navigation system (at 3:20).

That is what it said on Wikipedia, but I have also seen it elsewhere in the enormous amount of stuff being churned out. (Of course the second source could have got it from Wikipedia.)

I am not an expert (I failed physics O-Level), but an I think that an Inertial Navigation System can only plot your position in relation to your starting point: you need to know the position of the mothership to return to it. Therefore you need to be in contact with the mothership in order to calculate your route: without that you are guessing where your target is. If you lose communication the only sensible thing is to surface immediately and hope that the mothership can calculate your position. Of course, what knocked out the communications could have knocked out the INS.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, an INS just works out what movement your vehicle has made in relation to where it was. Aircraft used to have it, and to make sure accuracy could be maintained radio beacons were used as a means of accurately determining position when over land.

The mothership might of course move, so you need to be in contact with it to know where it's moved to.

 

[Ediswan]

I am not an expert (I failed physics O-Level), but an I think that an Inertial Navigation System can only plot your position in relation to your starting point:

True. But if you know the absolute position of the starting point (which you do), the INS can incorporate that information and show absolute position. The INS does not require ongoing communication with the mothership.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jun 2023 ==

Yes, an INS just works out what movement your vehicle has made in relation to where it was. Aircraft used to have it

They still do.

 

[Iskra]

A ROV is now being prepared to dive down, and should they locate the submersible it has the ability to free it from any entanglement. Around 20 hours of oxygen are predicted to remain.

The rescue operation seems to have stepped up a notch:

Summary​

1. The US Coast Guard commander leading the search for the missing Titanic sub tells the BBC the crew may have around 20 hours of oxygen left
2. Rear Admiral John Mauger says it's a very complex and difficult mission, with people working around the clock
3. Earlier, the US Coast Guard said a noise heard in the search had given them "a target, a focus"
4. Mauger says they are working closely with leading acoustic experts to make sure they understand what that noise signature is
5. More vessels are being sent to the search site, off the North American coast
6. Contact with the sub - which has five people on board - was lost on Sunday as it made a 3,800m descent to the Titanic wreck

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464

 

[Darandio]

It certainly seems like all equipment is now on site or at least very close to it. The French ROV can potentially locate the submersible and the US Navy deep salvage system has the capability to lift it. Both systems have operated some way deeper than where the Titanic wreck is and equipment much heavier than the submersible has been recovered from much deeper waters. It's just the time issue. Even if they do miraculously locate it in the next few hours and it is free of obstruction even the process of hooking up to it isn't a job measured in minutes. Ascent takes time too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It certainly seems like all equipment is now on site or at least very close to it. The French ROV can potentially locate the submersible and the US Navy deep salvage system has the capability to lift it. Both systems have operated some way deeper than where the Titanic wreck is and equipment much heavier than the submersible has been recovered from much deeper waters. It's just the time issue. Even if they do miraculously locate it in the next few hours and it is free of obstruction even the process of hooking up to it isn't a job measured in minutes. Ascent takes time too.

Because it's at the same pressure inside as at the surface there isn't a risk of "the bends" so it can be brought up as quickly as the kit they have permits.

 

[Darandio]

Because it's at the same pressure inside as at the surface there isn't a risk of "the bends" so it can be brought up as quickly as the kit they have permits.

Indeed. I'd bet money it is still quite a slow ascent though.

 

[Ladder23]

is there a more focused stream or tv channel which will slot focus on the search giving live updates, other than bbc news etc? I’m really intrigued by this

 

[greyman42]

is there a more focused stream or tv channel which will slot focus on the search giving live updates, other than bbc news etc? I’m really intrigued by this

G.B. News are giving it plenty of coverage.

 

[BingMan]

Agreed. and same for me. The litmus test for a true Titanic enthusiast was whether they’d heard of it before the 1997 film release (at least for those of us old enough).

I remember, at the tender age of ten, seeing Kenneth Moore in "A night to Remember" .

 

[Ladder23]

G.B. News are giving it plenty of coverage.

Thank you

 

[kristiang85]

The other good thing is that night time won't affect the sea bed search as it's already dark down there, but the surface search is obviously a lot harder.

is there a more focused stream or tv channel which will slot focus on the search giving live updates, other than bbc news etc? I’m really intrigued by this

Yes, I don't know these people but I'm desperately hoping they are found on time. And it's so great to see, as with the Thai cave and the Chilean mine, humanity pulling together for them. In these times of strife it is heartwarming to see.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

So we have the worlds best resources to hunt for a few super rich people who knew what risks they were taking yet when a boat load of immigrants sinks in Greek waters nobody is interested.

 

[ainsworth74]

Because it's at the same pressure inside as at the surface there isn't a risk of "the bends" so it can be brought up as quickly as the kit they have permits.

You wanna risk whatever attachments are used to get it off the seabed breaking halfway up and the thing tumbling back into the deep? They're going to bring it up as slowly as they can without running out of oxygen for the crew to survive in my book. At least until they can get it shallow enough to potentially get divers to it to attach more lines (which basically means just below the surface). Ain't nobody going to be bringing this thing up quickly unless it's a "we either get them up in the next hour or they die" situation.

 

[Ladder23]

So we have the worlds best resources to hunt for a few super rich people who knew what risks they were taking yet when a boat load of immigrants sinks in Greek waters nobody is interested.

Didn’t think it would take long for this comment to crop up

 

[Russel]

So we have the worlds best resources to hunt for a few super rich people who knew what risks they were taking yet when a boat load of immigrants sinks in Greek waters nobody is interested.

I do hope that, if found alive, the super rich involved pay at least some of the costs involved in their rescue.

 

[Falcon1200]

when a boat load of immigrants sinks in Greek waters nobody is interested.

Absolute nonsense, that tragedy received huge coverage here in the UK.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Absolute nonsense, that tragedy received huge coverage here in the UK.

…after the boat sank. Whilst it was in distress, there was tumbleweed from the authorities.

On a human level it’s right to try and save anyone, and I hope the submarine is found with the people in it still alive. But the cost will be in the tens, if not the hundreds, of millions and I seriously doubt the same courtesy would be extended to, say, five fishermen on a trawler out of Falmouth.

 

[Iskra]

So we have the worlds best resources to hunt for a few super rich people who knew what risks they were taking yet when a boat load of immigrants sinks in Greek waters nobody is interested.

Even the worlds best resources probably won’t be enough.

The key issue at this time is that they still haven’t located the sub.

 

[stuu]

So we have the worlds best resources to hunt for a few super rich people who knew what risks they were taking yet when a boat load of immigrants sinks in Greek waters nobody is interested.

The difference is that unfortunately that occurs with depressing regularity, and is not "news" any more. A missing submarine doesn't happen every week, and therefore gets attention.

Equally, had these same five people died in a car crash it wouldn't get any attention either, so it's not really about the people as such