Wyre Dock, Fleetwood - Coal & Fish 1950s and '60s

[Andy873]

Plodding my way through a book by Stuart Taylor he mentions coal for the power station at Wyre dock, Fleetwood.

He's the only one I've read that actually tells me why coal trains were heading there, I presumed as the place was a dock (and still is) that the coal was destined for ships maybe for other UK locations or export. I also forgot just how big a fishing port it was back in the day.

In my 1956 WTT covering Great Harwood Junction (Blackburn) to Colne and Todmorden I can see several coal trains on weekdays and Saturdays plus empties running back, but I'm struggling to spot the fish trains.

Here it is

I can see different classes of trains listed - can you tell me please which ones are likely to be fish trains?

Speaking of fish, I guess you probably need to move quickly to get it distributed. Would you send it to say Manchester first then outward to the surrounding towns? or would a train from the docks stop at town X, Y and then Z?

 

[Gloster]

Two quick comments.

Fish, along with other perishables and newspapers, was time sensitive and therefore treated differently to other traffic. Such trains were regarded as more important than normal parcels or freight trains and had a higher priority. In order to make this clear they were signalled with a different bell code, so the signalman knew how to deal with it. Their progress might also be followed more closely by Control than most trains. In 1956 they would have been Class C or D, while coal trains would have been further down the alphabet, say H (*). They may also be listed in the Passenger and Parcels WTT, rather than the goods one.

As far as the operation was concerned it was a case a of whatever got the fish to the dealer as quickly as possible. I think that in general trains did not dally long at intermediate stations while vans were unloaded. They might pause briefly while a van is detached, after which the pilot shunts it to the Fish Dock, or a train might detach a number of vans which would then be worked to other stations. Purely hypothetical example: a Wyre Dock-Manchester train might detach vans at Bolton, which would then be worked by a separate loco to Rochdale or Oldham; a van off the latter might be detached at Bury and worked to Bacup.

* - I have several lists of pre-1961 train classifications, but I can’t find any of them.

Have a look at the front of the WTT: sometimes they give a list of train classifications.

 

[30907]

Fish trains would normally have been fully braked travelled as class C (later 3) like milk and other perishables. They certainly appear in various passenger WTTs that I have.

 

[Springs Branch]

I know very little about historical fish trains but, as is often the case, a rather obscure or niche question from @Andy873 led to an excuse to thumb through my old Working Timetables (WTTs), plus an interesting hour of Googling.

The Blood and Custard website has an interesting page which starts off about British Railway’s Insulated Fish Vans (INSUL-FISH), then goes on to describe details of fish train workings during their twilight years in the 1950s and 60s.

The account includes arrangements for various drop-offs of vans en route, as mentioned by @Gloster.
For example, the 2.15 p.m. Aberdeen to Carstairs fish train:-

The 2.15 p.m. Aberdeen to Carstairs conveyed traffic for Manchester and Birmingham along with a number of intermediate stations. In December 1963 steam power was booked to Carstairs (arr. 6.42 p.m.); there being a crew change at Perth.

Following re-marshalling at Carstairs two separate trains left at 8 p.m for Birmingham Curzon Street and at 8.10 p.m. for Manchester Oldham Road (including a portion for Liverpool).

The 8 p.m. to Birmingham Curzon Street stopped at Carlisle before arriving at Warrington (arr. 12.38 a.m. – detachment – dep. 12.48 a.m. then Crewe (arr. 1.26 a.m. – detachment dep. 2.4 a.m.), Stafford (arr. 2.38 a.m. – detachment – dep. 2.43 a.m.) and Wolverhampton (further detachment) arriving 4.3 a.m. at Birmingham Curzon Street.

The 8.10 p.m. to Manchester Oldham Road also stopped at Carlisle before arriving Preston (detachments for Preston and Liverpool) thence a further detachment at Wigan before arriving 2.55 a.m. at Manchester Oldham Road (via Springs Branch Junction).

In WTTs from the mid-1960s for the WCML between Crewe & Euxton Junction, when looking for fish trains from Wyre Dock: the Passenger & Parcels WTT does not seem to have any (all class 3 trains are clearly identified as Parcels). The Freight WTT, however, does have one daily train:

• 4A06 14:53 SX Wyre Dock to London Broad Street

This is not identified specifically as a fish train, but it does pass non-stop through the timetable area, seemingly with a reasonable lick of speed. For some reason it stopped for its diesel to electric traction change in Crewe station, rather than at Gresty Lane, as most other through goods trains tended to do in that era - which might suggest it was a train of some priority and urgency.

Interesting that the destination was the goods yard at Broad Street. Was this because it was as close as the LMR got to the location of Billingsgate Fish Market in those days? This was a time when both Broad Street Goods Yard and bulk fish traffic by rail were very much on their last legs.

 

[30907]

The Freight WTT, however, does have one daily train:

• 4A06 14:53 SX Wyre Dock to London Broad Street

This is not identified specifically as a fish train, but it does pass non-stop through the timetable area, seemingly with a reasonable lick of speed. For some reason it stopped for its diesel to electric traction change in Crewe station, rather than at Gresty Lane, as most other through goods trains tended to do in that era - which might suggest it was a train of some priority and urgency.

Interesting that the destination was the goods yard at Broad Street. Was this because it was as close as the LMR got to the location of Billingsgate Fish Market in those days? This was a time when both Broad Street Goods Yard and bulk fish traffic by rail were very much on their last legs.

A class 4 would be allowed to include short-wheelbase vans, which ISTR were restricted to 60mph by then.

 

[Andy873]

Thanks all.

@Gloster describes one way to deliver fish along the route which is backed up with @Springs Branch and the train he lists - thanks guys.

I've gone through all four of my WTTs (1956, 1962, 1963 & 1964).

The only freight WTT is the '56 one, the others are passenger WTTs and non of the passenger ones list anything close to fish, just the usual parcels, ECS etc.

However in the 1956 one, there are two trains listed that are class D and they run from Wyre Dock to Mirfield. I thought these were empties but the WTT is very specific about mentioning empties (and they listed under a different class).

The two trains are:
6.10 pm Wyre Dock - Mirfield (not running at time of publishing)
7.35 pm Wyre Dock - Mirfield

Both trains don't stop except to take on water at Gannow Junction which takes 5 minutes. The 7.35 one runs every day except Sundays.

This 1956 freight WTT interestingly doesn't show any class C trains at all.

Do you think the two trains listed above are fish trains? - see attached.

 

[Gloster]

The two trains are:
6.10 pm Wyre Dock - Mirfield (not running at time of publishing)
7.35 pm Wyre Dock - Mirfield

Both trains don't stop except to take on water at Gannow Junction which takes 5 minutes. The 7.35 one runs every day except Sundays.

This 1956 freight WTT interestingly doesn't show any class C trains at all.

Do you think the two trains listed above are fish trains? - see attached.

My guess is that they are. Mirfield, which has a loco depot, would probably be a convenient point to split up the train into smaller sections for the different towns.

I would suspect, but do not know for certain, that the fish market had developed with certain ports mainly serving particular areas. At a guess, I would suspect that fish from Wyre Dock mainly went to Lancashire, Cheshire and the West Midlands, while Yorkshire got its fish primarily from East Coast ports. People may have developed tastes for the fish from the sea fished by ports that served their area and were not so interested in types of fish from other seas: the routes of distribution then became entrenched. This might be why there were relatively few trans-Pennine fish trains: there might still be the need for some such trains, but not a massive one. (All guesswork, I am afraid.)

 

[6Gman]

In WTTs from the mid-1960s for the WCML between Crewe & Euxton Junction, when looking for fish trains from Wyre Dock: the Passenger & Parcels WTT does not seem to have any (all class 3 trains are clearly identified as Parcels). The Freight WTT, however, does have one daily train:

• 4A06 14:53 SX Wyre Dock to London Broad Street

This is not identified specifically as a fish train, but it does pass non-stop through the timetable area, seemingly with a reasonable lick of speed. For some reason it stopped for its diesel to electric traction change in Crewe station, rather than at Gresty Lane, as most other through goods trains tended to do in that era - which might suggest it was a train of some priority and urgency.

Interesting that the destination was the goods yard at Broad Street. Was this because it was as close as the LMR got to the location of Billingsgate Fish Market in those days? This was a time when both Broad Street Goods Yard and bulk fish traffic by rail were very much on their last legs.

In the 1950s I think there may have been two Wyre Dock - Broad Street (will need to check). Broad Street was definitely the usual destination - probably for Billingsgate.

Such long-distance high priority trains would often be routed via the station at Crewe (rather than Basford Hall) as it was a quicker route. (And it would be Basford Hall rather than Gresty Lane, which is on the Shrewsbury line.)

Thanks all.

@Gloster describes one way to deliver fish along the route which is backed up with @Springs Branch and the train he lists - thanks guys.

I've gone through all four of my WTTs (1956, 1962, 1963 & 1964).

The only freight WTT is the '56 one, the others are passenger WTTs and non of the passenger ones list anything close to fish, just the usual parcels, ECS etc.

However in the 1956 one, there are two trains listed that are class D and they run from Wyre Dock to Mirfield. I thought these were empties but the WTT is very specific about mentioning empties (and they listed under a different class).

The two trains are:
6.10 pm Wyre Dock - Mirfield (not running at time of publishing)
7.35 pm Wyre Dock - Mirfield

Both trains don't stop except to take on water at Gannow Junction which takes 5 minutes. The 7.35 one runs every day except Sundays.

This 1956 freight WTT interestingly doesn't show any class C trains at all.

Do you think the two trains listed above are fish trains? - see attached.

The departure times seem a little late for fish traffic - the general arrangement as I understand it was that the trawlers arrived in the small hours, the fish auction would start around six and everything would be sorted, cleared and on its way by lunchtime or early afternoon. The idea being that the fish would then be at their destination by early the following morning i.e. 24 hrs from being landed at the port.

 

[Springs Branch]

My guess is that they are. Mirfield, which has a loco depot, would probably be a convenient point to split up the train into smaller sections for the different towns.

I would suspect, but do not know for certain, that the fish market had developed with certain ports mainly serving particular areas. At a guess, I would suspect that fish from Wyre Dock mainly went to Lancashire, Cheshire and the West Midlands, while Yorkshire got its fish primarily from East Coast ports.

It seems very likely to be the case that certain fishing ports retained their own long-standing markets.

I wonder how much the evolution of these had been a result of historic railway geography, rather than topographic geography (with regard to the Pennines)?

The fishing port at Grimsby, for example, really developed from the 1840s with the coming of the Manchester, Sheffield and Lincolnshire Railway. The Grimsby Dock Company was promptly amalgamated into the MS&LR in the mid-1840s, and its successors, the Great Central and LNER, would have an interest in distributing fish traffic from its docks over as much of its own network as possible.

The Blood and Custard web page I linked in post #4 also gives the following list of fish trains from Grimsby in 1957:-

....according to the 1957 Working Time Table (WTT) Grimsby was running the following regular fish trains:

• 1.4 p.m. Banbury
• 4.48 p.m. Nottingham (LMR)
• 5.13 p.m. Ashton Moss
• 5.30 p.m. East Goods
• 6.13 p.m. Cambridge
• 6.25 p.m. Leicester Central
• 7.0 p.m. King’s Cross Goods
• 7.30 p.m. Guide Bridge
• 8.25 p.m. Leeds Central

A good few of these are classic Great Central destinations which, with typical railway inertia, persisted long after the old allegiances had (officially) changed.

For example, the final destination of the Banbury train was probably reached via the ex-GCR London Extension through Woodford Halse, no doubt with multiple drop-offs along the way.

West of the Pennines, both Guide Bridge and Ashton Moss would be ideal spots for the GCR/LNER fish trains (electrically hauled through Woodhead by 1957) to be broken up and the vans tripped to the various nearby towns like Stockport, Oldham, Ashton-under-Lyne, and to Manchester itself.

Back to the OP's question: Fleetwood's Wyre Dock was constructed in the 1870s by the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway (according to Wiki), so it makes sense this railway kept the Fleetwood fishing catch 'in the family', hauling it over its Copy Pit route to Mirfield, which would be a good location to subdivide the trains for distribution around the West Riding.

Incidentally, one comment made with regard to fish trains dropping off a handful of vans at various points along the route was the complication in ensuring all this specialised rolling stock got back to its port of origin promptly in time for the next incoming load off the trawlers.

 

[randyrippley]

Possibly worth noting that in 1964 Beeching-era cuts reduced the daily number of Fleetwood fish trains from six to one, as shown here

Thirty-vehicle Grant for Fleetwood Fish | 11th December 1964 | The Commercial Motor Archive

'Thirty-vehicle Grant for Fleetwood Fish' first printed in the 11th December 1964 issue of Commercial Motor

archive.commercialmotor.com

The special instruction memos on this page

Fresh Fish Daily! - Tracks through Grantham

by John Clayson Above: a southbound express fish train rushes through Grantham station on 24th May 1962 hauled by class B1 locomotive No. 61303 of Hull Dairycoates (50B) shed. The East Coast Main Line through Grantham was once the principal route for fish landed at Aberdeen and other ports in...

www.tracksthroughgrantham.uk

give an insight into the urgent handling regime for fish trains, with them being given special priority status

 

[Andy873]

The departure times seem a little late for fish traffic - the general arrangement as I understand it was that the trawlers arrived in the small hours, the fish auction would start around six and everything would be sorted, cleared and on its way by lunchtime or early afternoon. The idea being that the fish would then be at their destination by early the following morning i.e. 24 hrs from being landed at the port.

Yes, the time of the trains did make me wonder as they are late evening, but then again where ever the fish ended up it probably would be in time for early next morning.

My guess is that they are. Mirfield, which has a loco depot, would probably be a convenient point to split up the train into smaller sections for the different towns.

Fleetwood's Wyre Dock was constructed in the 1870s by the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway (according to Wiki), so it makes sense this railway kept the Fleetwood fishing catch 'in the family', hauling it over its Copy Pit route to Mirfield, which would be a good location to subdivide the trains for distribution around the West Riding.

Mirfield I think would have been an ideal place to divide the fish up for onward locations as mentioned. It's interesting to note that many places in West Riding are actually closer to the Lancashire coast than the Yorkshire one.

Didn't know the L&Y built Wyre dock but do know they were proud of the fact their network connected with ports on both the Lancashire coast and that of Yorkshire.

Availability, local preference and what came in to the ports would have been a factor.

One interesting fact I've been reading about is the first Fish & Chip shop opened in London 1860, and in 1863 there was a fish and chip stand in Manchester said to be doing a brisk trade. By 1910 the were 25,000 of them all around the country!

@randyrippley thanks for the links, they do stress the importance of getting them delivered a.s.a.p.

Blackburn station is interesting as it had a dedicated fish dock, the fish merchants there even had their own lockups. The dock itself was said to be always stacked with fish boxes early in the morning and a 'hive of activity'.

This makes me wonder if Blackburn station was the main fish distribution point for East Lancashire?

I've looked closely at Accrington and Burnley Central but cannot find any mention of fish docks there?

How would a station with no dedicated fish facilities handle say the arrival of a couple of vans? would they be shunted directly into the goods shed for quick unloading and collection?

 

[6Gman]

The departure times seem a little late for fish traffic - the general arrangement as I understand it was that the trawlers arrived in the small hours, the fish auction would start around six and everything would be sorted, cleared and on its way by lunchtime or early afternoon. The idea being that the fish would then be at their destination by early the following morning i.e. 24 hrs from being landed at the port.

The very useful info provided by @Springs Branch suggests that my doubts re timing were not valid.

Mus try harder!

 

[Gloster]

Blackburn station is interesting as it had a dedicated fish dock, the fish merchants there even had their own lockups. The dock itself was said to be always stacked with fish boxes early in the morning and a 'hive of activity'.

This makes me wonder if Blackburn station was the main fish distribution point for East Lancashire?

I've looked closely at Accrington and Burnley Central but cannot find any mention of fish docks there?

How would a station with no dedicated fish facilities handle say the arrival of a couple of vans? would they be shunted directly into the goods shed for quick unloading and collection?

Quite a lot of large stations had fish docks: it is likely that Preston, Burnley and Nelson or Colne, and probably Accrington as well had them, even if they weren’t so marked on maps. Remember that when the system started the fish was distributed onwards from the station on horse-drawn carts, so centralising everything was not a practicable idea.

One of the problems with fish is that during transit and handling water, ice and bits such as scales fall off. If you don’t wash the site down it will begin to smell after a few days, but if you use the area for other purposes washing it down disrupts the rest of the work. And there is also the problem of damage to other goods by foul-smelling liquids.

There is probably no fixed rule as to where fish would be handled if there wasn’t a dedicated fish dock, but it would most likely be in the passenger station, although away from the main passenger and parcels areas. This also makes shunting easier and quicker, which is important if you don’t have a pilot and are using the train engine to cut off the vans.