Belmont Line to be doubled - funding available

[Railcar]

Belmont station in the London borough of Sutton is on the singled line to Epsom Downs. A nearby 'cancer Hub' being built has generated funding for the track from Sutton to be doubled. The article in this local news site also mentions a reversing siding to allow twice the number of trains to use the line from Sutton. At present the Epsom Downs service from Victoria runs twice an hour using 8-car 377 trains. Will Southern have enough 377s? https://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk...double-number-trains-suttons-belmont-station/
From the Sutton and Croydon Guardian:

" Designs will soon be drawn up for a new rail link which would double services for an ‘under-served’ area of south London.
It comes six months after Sutton Council was awarded £14 million of government Levelling Up funding to improve services in Belmont.
The council wants to double the number of trains to the station to make it easier to access the area’s growing cancer research centre.
An update was heard at the council’s Strategy and Resources Committee on Monday night (June 20).
At the meeting, Carolyn Dwyer, director development, growth and regeneration said £3million of the funding will now be allocated to Network Rail to draw up designs for the works.
She told councillors this week: “We are at very early design stages, if you’ve ever caught the train to Belmont Station you’ll know there are no signs to the London Cancer Hub. The idea is to design a pedestrian route with cycling facilities to the standards of Transport for London’s healthy streets.”
The cash is expected to be used to turn the single track between Sutton and Belmont stations into a dual track as it originally was. At the moment, just one train can travel on the route at a time.
It also includes creating a new short track south of Belmont to allow trains to move onto the other line. Having a track going either way will mean services between Belmont and London Victoria could be increased from two to four trains an hour."

 

[duncanp]

When Tramlink was going to be built as far as Sutton, one proposal was to extend the line to serve the London Cancer Hub.

As there is very little prospect of the tram being buil any time soon, increasing services on the Epsom Downs line is the most practical way of providing a decent public transport service to the site.

Perhaps a reorganistion of bus services in the area would help as well, such as extending TfL Bus 280 from its current terminus at Belmont Station, and Tfl Bus 164 from its current terminus at Sutton Station.

 

[Snow1964]

Does the line actually need to be doubled again to Sutton, or just second platform on a loop with siding at Epsom Downs end with a single line section between the two.

Athough might be simpler just to double it and not have any turnouts on Sutton side of Station.

Ideally the local topography would see Belmont station better served by a lift or escalator to the road towards the hospital (it is uphill).

 

[duncanp]

Does the line actually need to be doubled again to Sutton, or just second platform on a loop with siding at Epsom Downs end with a single line section between the two.

Athough might be simpler just to double it and not have any turnouts on Sutton side of Station.

Ideally the local topography would see Belmont station better served by a lift or escalator to the road towards the hospital (it is uphill).

I would have thought that, given that the line used to be double track throughout, it would be better to double it as far as possible to give greater operational flexibility and potential to increase services in future.

If the London Cancer Hub develops further in the future, there will be considerable demand for travel from patients, staff and visitors.

 

[30907]

I would have thought that, given that the line used to be double track throughout, it would be better to double it as far as possible to give greater operational flexibility and potential to increase services in future.

If the London Cancer Hub develops further in the future, there will be considerable demand for travel from patients, staff and visitors.

The problem is creating accessible platforms I suspect, especially at Banstead - a turnback at Belmont is a cheap and cheerful solution.

Does the line actually need to be doubled again to Sutton, or just second platform on a loop with siding at Epsom Downs end with a single line section between the two.

There's only about 1/4 mile between the end of the double track and Belmont - does anyone recall whether the plan involves a new up platform there, or just a turnback beyund the station?

 

[PGAT]

The plan just in includes a turnback at the south of the station. Although if there is sufficient demand, a second track and platform will be built for 6tph

Will Southern have enough 377s?

Southern already have enough to run additional Victoria - Sutton services in the peak, so the rolling stock is certainly there.

 

[TRXsouth]

The Belmont turnback was discussed earlier in 2023 -

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/improved-services-to-belmont.242214/d

I still wonder if Mayor Khan might see this as an opportunity to expand London Overground to serve the London Cancer Hub development. Extending the West Croydon terminators to the Greater London boundary at Belmont?

Also, following TfL’s proposals, consultations and amendments, various Croydon and Sutton bus routes are due to be revised in March 2024. These include services around the south of Sutton including Belmont.

 

[PGAT]

I still wonder if Mayor Khan might see this as an opportunity to expand London Overground to serve the London Cancer Hub development. Extending the West Croydon terminators to the Greater London boundary at Belmont?

Belmont to Highbury would be a long way to go, might cause reliability issues, not all 4tph would be able to go there as the line still has to be shared with the Epsom Downs terminators, and I don’t think 378s are even cleared to go beyond West Croydon turnback.

This is looking way into the future, and might be too speculative for this thread, but a Belmont to London Bridge service would be nice, and would finally restore direct services to London Bridge from Anerley and Penge West

 

[Deepgreen]

Belmont to Highbury would be a long way to go, might cause reliability issues, not all 4tph would be able to go there as the line still has to be shared with the Epsom Downs terminators, and I don’t think 378s are even cleared to go beyond West Croydon turnback.

Apart from anything else, I imagine clearing 378s to Belmont would not be a hard task, as their envelope is surely the same as 377s?

 

[London Trains]

To be honest I don't see the point in this - Belmont station is not in a great location for access to the Cancer Hub, it is a 10 minute walk uphill along quiet roads. Access to the site would be better provided by a very frequent shuttle bus from Sutton station directly into the site - this is a 5 minute journey so would be much quicker than staying on the train to Belmont.

For train services, it would be much better overall for services to Sutton and onwards to Epsom and Dorking to be improved. As well as the Victoria to Dorking/Horsham fast services returning, I would say the Epsom to London Bridge service should be doubled to 4tph, it is a very popular service, and 2 of them should extend to Guildford replacing SWR's service, with all SWR services via Worcester Park running to Dorking. This would connect Guildford directly to the Cancer Hub as well as Sutton and Croydon.

Services via Sutton/Epsom (no change to Thameslink):

2tph Victoria to Dorking/Horsham (Carshalton, Sutton, Cheam, Epsom, Ashtead, Leatherhead, Boxhill 1tph, Dorking, 1tph onwards to Horsham all stops)

2tph Victoria to Epsom (Clapham Jct, Balham, Mitcham Eastfields, Mitcham Jct, Hackbridge, Carshalton, Sutton, Cheam, Ewell East)

2tph London Bridge to Epsom (Norwood Jct, West Croydon, Waddon, Wallington, Carshalton Beeches, Sutton, Cheam, Ewell East)

2tph London Bridge to Guildford (Norwood Jct, West Croydon, Waddon, Wallington, Carshalton Beeches, Sutton, Cheam, Ewell East, Epsom, Ashtead, Leatherhead, Bookham, Effingham Jct, Horsley, Clandon, London Road)

2tph Victoria to Epsom Downs (all stops via Selhurst, same as now)

SWR - 2tph (eventually 4tph) Waterloo to Dorking (Vauxhall, Clapham Jct, Earlsfield, Wimbledon, Raynes Park, Motspur Park, Worcester Park, Stoneleigh, Ewell West, Epsom, Ashtead, Leatherhead, Boxhill)

 

[PGAT]

To be honest I don't see the point in this - Belmont station is not in a great location for access to the Cancer Hub, it is a 10 minute walk uphill along quiet roads. Access to the site would be better provided by a very frequent shuttle bus from Sutton station directly into the site - this is a 5 minute journey so would be much quicker than staying on the train to Belmont.

The point is also to regenerate the whole Belmont area, as it has very poor public transport and is one of the most impoverished areas in London. Also, some of the money for the project will be devoted for better pedestrian infrastructure for walking to the hospital.

 

[Horizon22]

The point is also to regenerate the whole Belmont area, as it has very poor public transport and is one of the most impoverished areas in London. Also, some of the money for the project will be devoted for better pedestrian infrastructure for walking to the hospital.

You're joking right? It's one of the least deprived areas of all of London, let alone Sutton - areas around St Helier, Hackbridge and Beddington fare much worse on the Indicies of Multiple Deprivation. There is a very specific area only that is low.

 

[LLivery]

You're joking right? It's one of the least deprived areas of all of London, let alone Sutton - areas around St Helier, Hackbridge and Beddington fare much worse on the Indicies of Multiple Deprivation. There is a very specific area only that is low.

Indeed, Belmont is one of the wealthiest places according to the Census data. Only the estate alongside the railway has a poverty issue, but that's certainly not reflective of the area as a whole

 

[Railcar]

I would say the Epsom to London Bridge service should be doubled to 4tph, it is a very popular service,

Agreed that this is a popular service. It picks up the Up Fast from Norwood JUnction and flashes past all the suburban stations visited by the Overground. A Belmont terminator that picked up the Up Victoria Fast at Selhurst (if a path was available) could bypass the trudge through Thornton heath, Norbury, Streatham Common, etc and would be popular as a quick service to Victoria

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Agreed that this is a popular service. It picks up the Up Fast from Norwood JUnction and flashes past all the suburban stations visited by the Overground. A Belmont terminator that picked up the Up Victoria Fast at Selhurst (if a path was available) could bypass the trudge through Thornton heath, Norbury, Streatham Common, etc and would be popular as a quick service to Victoria

I've always thought that there should be a fast West Croydon to Clapham Junction, but I suppose now there's the Epsom to London Bridge fasts there's not point. That said Emspom Downs if its going to have more development on it needs a quicker route to London, maybe via Mitcham.

 

[PGAT]

Shouldn’t connectivity (ie, more direct stations to Belmont) be a bigger priority than fast trains to London?

 

[London Trains]

Shouldn’t connectivity (ie, more direct stations to Belmont) be a bigger priority than fast trains to London?

This is why I think the Epsom to London Bridge service should be extended to Guildford, it would provide connections towards the new Cancer Hub as well as Sutton and Croydon.

Stations Effingham Junction to Guildford would only lose direct services to Ewell West, Stoneleigh, Worcester Park, Motspur Park and Raynes Park - the new links would be much more popular, the existing links would be a cross platform change at Epsom, and the services via Cobham are significantly faster to Waterloo.

 

[Deepgreen]

To be honest I don't see the point in this - Belmont station is not in a great location for access to the Cancer Hub, it is a 10 minute walk uphill along quiet roads. Access to the site would be better provided by a very frequent shuttle bus from Sutton station directly into the site - this is a 5 minute journey so would be much quicker than staying on the train to Belmont.

For train services, it would be much better overall for services to Sutton and onwards to Epsom and Dorking to be improved. As well as the Victoria to Dorking/Horsham fast services returning, I would say the Epsom to London Bridge service should be doubled to 4tph, it is a very popular service, and 2 of them should extend to Guildford replacing SWR's service, with all SWR services via Worcester Park running to Dorking. This would connect Guildford directly to the Cancer Hub as well as Sutton and Croydon.

Services via Sutton/Epsom (no change to Thameslink):

2tph Victoria to Dorking/Horsham (Carshalton, Sutton, Cheam, Epsom, Ashtead, Leatherhead, Boxhill 1tph, Dorking, 1tph onwards to Horsham all stops)

2tph Victoria to Epsom (Clapham Jct, Balham, Mitcham Eastfields, Mitcham Jct, Hackbridge, Carshalton, Sutton, Cheam, Ewell East)

2tph London Bridge to Epsom (Norwood Jct, West Croydon, Waddon, Wallington, Carshalton Beeches, Sutton, Cheam, Ewell East)

2tph London Bridge to Guildford (Norwood Jct, West Croydon, Waddon, Wallington, Carshalton Beeches, Sutton, Cheam, Ewell East, Epsom, Ashtead, Leatherhead, Bookham, Effingham Jct, Horsley, Clandon, London Road)

2tph Victoria to Epsom Downs (all stops via Selhurst, same as now)

SWR - 2tph (eventually 4tph) Waterloo to Dorking (Vauxhall, Clapham Jct, Earlsfield, Wimbledon, Raynes Park, Motspur Park, Worcester Park, Stoneleigh, Ewell West, Epsom, Ashtead, Leatherhead, Boxhill)

As a local resident, 6tph to Dorking would be wonderful, but will never happen. SWR reduced to 1tph with Covid and show no signs of interest in restoring even 2tph, let alone 4!.

 

[London Trains]

Deleted

 

[PGAT]

Southern haven’t run to Guildford in over 3 years however, so this is all completely unrealistic

 

[London Trains]

Southern haven’t run to Guildford in over 3 years however, so this is all completely unrealistic

Southern only ran a few peak extras that would probably be unnecessary nowadays, I'm talking about Southern directly replacing the SWR service. As I said above it would provide a lot of new and useful direct connections and not break many connections (and the broken connections would all be done with a cross platform change at Epsom). The point you said was for there to be more connectivity to the Cancer Hub, this does that and has many other benefits.

Other than the lack of rolling stock Southern currently have, I can't see why it is an unrealistic idea.

 

[PGAT]

Other than the lack of rolling stock Southern currently have, I can't see why it is an unrealistic idea.

Drivers would have also lost route knowledge

 

[shakermaker_86]

Drivers would have also lost route knowledge

Surely drivers are capable of learning/re-relearning routes?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Surely drivers are capable of learning/re-relearning routes?

They are, but try getting the DfT / HM Treasury to sign off on the costs, especially for a line which already has a reduced service mandated by themselves...

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

To be honest I don't see the point in this - Belmont station is not in a great location for access to the Cancer Hub, it is a 10 minute walk uphill along quiet roads. Access to the site would be better provided by a very frequent shuttle bus from Sutton station directly into the site - this is a 5 minute journey so would be much quicker than staying on the train to Belmont.

Don't disagree but having been a regular visitor their escorting a family friend for treatment I can tell you that parking is nigh on impossible during normal working hours and short of them building a multi story they have no solution. So trying to drive modal transfer is a necessity but not sure majority of staff or visitors would use the train without a shuttle bus up from the station which doesn't look that practical.

 

[London Trains]

Don't disagree but having been a regular visitor their escorting a family friend for treatment I can tell you that parking is nigh on impossible during normal working hours and short of them building a multi story they have no solution. So trying to drive modal transfer is a necessity but not sure majority of staff or visitors would use the train without a shuttle bus up from the station which doesn't look that practical.

Exactly - this is why I think there should be a shuttle bus from Sutton Station, not from Belmont as it would be impractical as you say. It would also have better connections as Sutton Station has a significantly better range of destinations than Belmont will ever have.

Regardless, a multi-storey car park should definitely be built on the site regardless of whatever train or bus connections exist - hospitals are somewhere that should never have a lack of parking.

 

[duncanp]

Exactly - this is why I think there should be a shuttle bus from Sutton Station, not from Belmont as it would be impractical as you say. It would also have better connections as Sutton Station has a significantly better range of destinations than Belmont will ever have.

Regardless, a multi-storey car park should definitely be built on the site regardless of whatever train or bus connections exist - hospitals are somewhere that should never have a lack of parking.

Is there land available to build a proper bus station on the site of the London Cancer Hub?

If so, then you could extend existing bus services 164 from Sutton and 280 from Belmont, as per my earlier suggestion, to provide a high frequency service between the cancer hub and Sutton station.

Other bus services such as the 80 and 420 and S1 could also be diverted to serve the bus station.

 

[PGAT]

I doubt there is space (otherwise it probably would have been built or proposed already) but there are some upcoming changes for local bus routes to better serve the hospital by 2024

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Regardless, a multi-storey car park should definitely be built on the site regardless of whatever train or bus connections exist - hospitals are somewhere that should never have a lack of parking.

Ummm.... why? As far as I can see, it's pretty rare that authorities worry about hospitals lacking bus services or rail services or cycle parking facilities or good walking routes. Why should cars uniquely be the thing that hospitals have to provide adequate facilities for? I'd have thought what's important is that hospitals have good transport connections that allow people from across the area to easily access the hospital. If those connections are provided via buses or trains so there's not so much need for people to drive there (with all the attendant risks to health that driving tends to cause) then so much the better.

I don't know much about the local situation in Belmont, but it's in London which generally has good public transport links, so as a matter of principle, I'd be looking at improving bus, train, cycling and walking connections long before I think about building a multi-storey car park.

 

[PGAT]

Wouldn’t building a massive car park (and by extension disincentivising public transport and cycling) just…defeat the whole purpose of all of this?