Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[Goldfish62]

They won’t need to train all of them up, but they will need enough to operate the 701 services with some redundancy. So all the usual issues around getting trainers trained in the first place, then releasing people from the roster to be trained in groups before there’s a quorum of trained staff to run the new trains in service. All of this has to work around covering leave, sickness, other training etc.

I completely get all that, but over 6 months from start of training to service entry as suggested earlier on this thread seems a very long time in comparison with elsewhere.

2-3 months has previously been quoted by SWR in respect of the many false dawns there have been with these units.

 

[fgwrich]

Speaking of the aforementioned units, I took these last week while passing in the 769. What you have to remember is that some of those reception roads can take 20 coaches worth, so some of those have doubled up 10 car units on.

 

[moley]

When the 450s and 444s were introduced, they had a series of CWNs issued as and when they were ready to switch the next group of services.

AIUI, this was based on another X number of units being ready and another Y number of drivers.

In Pompey we saw practically no 450s and then all the South Hampshire locals/Brightons were switched one Sunday.

Same happened on Pompey Direct with 444 introduction built up on Fratton train crew diagrams and the slam doors held out on the services crewed by Waterloo or Guildford teams.

Presumably with train planning teams stretched, we will see an overnight introduction on the Windsors at the start of the new December timetable.

Wonder if that means May 2024 for mainline side.

 

[43066]

I completely get all that, but over 6 months from start of training to service entry as suggested earlier on this thread seems a very long time in comparison with elsewhere.

2-3 months has previously been quoted by SWR in respect of the many false dawns there have been with these units.

I can’t speak for SWR but the last traction I was trained on, I was on the very first course after the instructors, which took place just after Christmas (so first week of Jan), for introduction in the following May timetable.

 

[GeoffS]

When the 450s and 444s were introduced, they had a series of CWNs issued as and when they were ready to switch the next group of services.

AIUI, this was based on another X number of units being ready and another Y number of drivers.

In Pompey we saw practically no 450s and then all the South Hampshire locals/Brightons were switched one Sunday.

Same happened on Pompey Direct with 444 introduction built up on Fratton train crew diagrams and the slam doors held out on the services crewed by Waterloo or Guildford teams.

Presumably with train planning teams stretched, we will see an overnight introduction on the Windsors at the start of the new December timetable.

Wonder if that means May 2024 for mainline side.

450s to Brighton??? (Only from Basingstoke, as I recall).

 

[ivorytoast28]

Anyone got a date for when the Guildford-waterloo via cobham/leatherhead will finally get trains with toilets? Given this is a 40 min+ journey between Guildford and Wimbledon/surbiton both which are major population centres, it seems crazy we're stuck with toiletless, old rolling stock that is falling to pieces for years (not to mention the incredibly slow journey times). This isn't a local commuter line for many users

 

[Bigfoot]

Anyone got a date for when the Guildford-waterloo via cobham/leatherhead will finally get trains with toilets? Given this is a 40 min+ journey between Guildford and Wimbledon/surbiton both which are major population centres, it seems crazy we're stuck with toiletless, old rolling stock that is falling to pieces for years (not to mention the incredibly slow journey times). This isn't a local commuter line for many users

Reading most recent posts and the BBC news article will give you an idea that no one has an answer to that.

 

[Snow1964]

There are some relatively self contained diagrams to Windsor, and some peak hour ones to Shepperton. Although not sure any diagram is totally separate (up and down same route all day)

Don't know if guards and/or drivers are from a more general pool for these though, and unlikely to want trains getting stranded at crew changeovers because new crew not trained.

Logistically, don't think there is sufficient siding space on Windsor lines to do an overnight swap into service with December timetable change.

 

[Surreyman]

Anyone got a date for when the Guildford-waterloo via cobham/leatherhead will finally get trains with toilets? Given this is a 40 min+ journey between Guildford and Wimbledon/surbiton both which are major population centres, it seems crazy we're stuck with toiletless, old rolling stock that is falling to pieces for years (not to mention the incredibly slow journey times). This isn't a local commuter line for many users

A guard confirmed to me 2 days a go that this will be the last line to convert to 701s.

 

[swr444]

A guard confirmed to me 2 days a go that this will be the last line to convert to 701s.

They have probably made that up. No one knows what route will be first or last as it keeps changing. Either way the cobham services interwork with the chessy and Woking stopper services so they’d all be the “last” ones if that’s the case.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

For those who are interested Rock Rail South Western Plc 2022 results have been released.

SWR paid them 10.1m in leasing charges as they are liable for leasing charges whether the trains are in use or not. Additionally they received another 67.2m in liquidated damages from Alstom (61m in 2021) . No specific item or note that suggests they are handing over any compensation to SWR though although maybe reflected through lower leasing charges.

They accepted 26 further 10car units during the year so things have move on a pace since then if now at 42. Also leases are only to Aug24 but with an option to extend by an additional 11 railway periods so co terminus with current NRC expiry of June 2025.

 

[Invincible]

DLogistically, don't think there is sufficient siding space on Windsor lines to do an overnight swap into service with December timetable change.

Although there is the new Feltham depot with many sidings, that was built for the 701s.
A few years back the 707s did test and training runs within the current timetables.

I presume new software releases have been released, and are being tested on the. runs to Waterloo and Poole?

 

[StewartStag]

5Q70 worksop to wembley today was 47727 dragging 701009

 

[wickham]

I may be wrong but I believe that most of the "79% reduction in service" mentioned above has come from reduced train formations (withdrawal of the 456s for instance) rather than a reduction in the actual number of trains run. The withdrawal of the 456s has obviously reduced vehicle mileage run.
MK

 

[Goldfish62]

I may be wrong but I believe that most of the "79% reduction in service" mentioned above has come from reduced train formations (withdrawal of the 456s for instance) rather than a reduction in the actual number of trains run. The withdrawal of the 456s has obviously reduced vehicle mileage run.
MK

Yes, that's part of it, although Reading and Dorking / Epsom for example have had huge cuts to services.

Anyway, we digress.

 

[Snow1964]

I may be wrong but I believe that most of the "79% reduction in service" mentioned above has come from reduced train formations (withdrawal of the 456s for instance) rather than a reduction in the actual number of trains run. The withdrawal of the 456s has obviously reduced vehicle mileage run.
MK

79% is the fraction of 4 years earlier
It would be 21% (100-79) reduction, not 79% reduction

It is 79% by train kilometres (table 4.1)
It is 78% by vehicle kilometres (table 5.1)

So yes the formations are shorter, but it is a minor fraction of the service cuts, but possibly lengthening the less frequent mainline services is masking the shortening of suburban formations.

https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/2207/passenger-rail-usage-jan-mar-2023.pdf

 

[cvinall]

It's a shame the Windsor lines seem likely to get them first. They already have air-con on that route. We're sweltering over here on the New Guildford Line! And paying the same, I might add..

 

[Goldfish62]

It's a shame the Windsor lines seem likely to get them first. They already have air-con on that route. We're sweltering over here on the New Guildford Line! And paying the same, I might add..

It's because they're relatively self-contained. Hopefully you'll see them on the Guildford New Line by next summer!

 

[theironroad]

I don't think anyone should start getting their hopes up and no doubt the 455s will bae around for a few years yet.

What may happen, and no doubt SWR and First are very keen to happen, is for 1 train to run by 31/12/23 in passenger service.

Right now they'll struggle to get 10 mainline drivers trained with industrial action this year and each driver I believe from Paul Clifton's chat with SWR is that for drives its a 8 day conversion course. That's a lot of training days to get in in the next few years while still training new drivers to the company as well.

 

[SWT_USER]

It's a shame the Windsor lines seem likely to get them first. They already have air-con on that route. We're sweltering over here on the New Guildford Line! And paying the same, I might add..

Selfishly I am pleased! They will go some way to replacing the capacity lost on the Windsor lines since the pandemic.

 

[Snow1964]

I don't think anyone should start getting their hopes up and no doubt the 455s will bae around for a few years yet.

What may happen, and no doubt SWR and First are very keen to happen, is for 1 train to run by 31/12/23 in passenger service.

Right now they'll struggle to get 10 mainline drivers trained with industrial action this year and each driver I believe from Paul Clifton's chat with SWR is that for drives it's a 8 day conversion course. That's a lot of training days to get in in the next few years while still training new drivers to the company as well.

8 days for a type conversion course seems excessive, especially for those trained on 707s. I realise there is some new features, and few things in different place, and they probably handle slightly differently, but still seems a lot of days to change from an ac motored 5 or 10 car unit with modern features to another type.

Its not like they are converting drivers from 159s where everything is different.

 

[Goldfish62]

Selfishly I am pleased! They will go some way to replacing the capacity lost on the Windsor lines since the pandemic.

Yes, it's getting very cosy indeed on some trains with 8 car 450s.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jul 2023 ==

I don't think anyone should start getting their hopes up and no doubt the 455s will bae around for a few years yet.

What may happen, and no doubt SWR and First are very keen to happen, is for 1 train to run by 31/12/23 in passenger service.

Right now they'll struggle to get 10 mainline drivers trained with industrial action this year and each driver I believe from Paul Clifton's chat with SWR is that for drives its a 8 day conversion course. That's a lot of training days to get in in the next few years while still training new drivers to the company as well.

I saw quoted by SWR last year that the introduction programme would take two years.

 

[Snow1964]

I saw quoted by SWR last year that the introduction programme would take two years.

And 5 years ago SWR said first ones would enter service October 2019, and all be in service by December 2020. So they could do it in 15 months then.
Not sure why now need 60% (9 months) longer

 

[Goldfish62]

And 5 years ago SWR said first ones would enter service October 2019, and all be in service by December 2020. So they could do it in 15 months then.
Not sure why now need 60% (9 months) longer

Everything to do with the 701s and the introduction of new trains on SWR seems to be surrounded by mystery and ambiguity.

How do other TOCs seem to manage it OK?!

 

[Dan G]

Speaking of the aforementioned units, I took these last week while passing in the 769. What you have to remember is that some of those reception roads can take 20 coaches worth, so some of those have doubled up 10 car units on.

Where is that?

Sad to see them all sitting there.

 

[MotCO]

Right now they'll struggle to get 10 mainline drivers trained with industrial action this year

Now they're training drivers to take industrial action?

 

[fgwrich]

Where is that?

Sad to see them all sitting there.

Long Marston, Warwickshire

 

[Western Sunset]

A couple had a trip to the seaside at Bournemouth today: 701508 + 701510.

 

[fgwrich]

I had a bit of a surprise while passing through Eastleigh yesterday afternoon - 2 x 701 out on test! The first photo shows a 10 coming out of Eastleigh TMD and a 5 car looped around the back of the station, the second well - thanks to the pointwork at Eastleigh, the 701 is travelling into the loop while the 450 is drawing forward across the junction heading up to London. Quite the nerve racking site from a distance!

 

[The_Train]

A couple had a trip to the seaside at Bournemouth today: 701508 + 701510.

Was that a test working or a trip to the depot for mod work?