Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[pompeyfan]

8 days for a type conversion course seems excessive, especially for those trained on 707s. I realise there is some new features, and few things in different place, and they probably handle slightly differently, but still seems a lot of days to change from an ac motored 5 or 10 car unit with modern features to another type.

Its not like they are converting drivers from 159s where everything is different.

SWR drivers need to learn how to do DOO dispatch which will be a large chunk of that 8 day conversion.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Are the 701s to be fitted with the new Elinor Hamilton announcements or will the current New Celia announcements remain?

 

[TEW]

Are the 701s to be fitted with the new Elinor Hamilton announcements or will the current New Celia announcements remain?

The units being tested a few years ago certainly had Celia on the announcements.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The units being tested a few years ago certainly had Celia on the announcements.

Yes, but as of this week Elinor has popped up on selected 159s and 444s instead of Celia

 

[Monty]

SWR drivers need to learn how to do DOO dispatch which will be a large chunk of that 8 day conversion.

Even that's still up in the air..

 

[pompeyfan]

Even that's still up in the air..

Not from what I’ve been told. The main method of dispatch will be using DOO cameras, although there will be a method for guards to maintain dispatch competency.

 

[modernrail]

Everything I look at this thread I am in disbelief at the chaos. I am sure it is well rehearsed in the details of the posts but surely this is not the most botched introduction of a UK fleet ever? Especially when you consider there are loads of the same ish type rolling around in loads of other places?

 

[Western Sunset]

Everything I look at this thread I am in disbelief at the chaos. I am sure it is well rehearsed in the details of the posts but surely this is not the most botched introduction of a UK fleet ever? Especially when you consider there are loads of the same ish type rolling around in loads of other places?

When you consider that it can be done right. Vehicles constructed half way across the world, travel over the ocean. Then unloaded, switched-on and off you go...

 

[Invincible]

Can be down to several factors. From the BBC report
"SWR said the delay was partly due to the impact of Covid-19. However, it acknowledged serious issues with the trains' software.
The train drivers' union ASLEF previously reported problems with door obstacle detectors, as well as the coupling process, faulty windscreen wipers and cab doors that were difficult to open."

They were ordered with driver operated doors, when staff and union relationships were low with management and before driver operated doors were agreed.
Also they were ordered as 20m long when other Aventras were 24m, which caused cab problems above
The software was outsourced to India and took a while to sort.

 

[Snow1964]

For those who are interested Rock Rail South Western Plc 2022 results have been released.

SWR paid them 10.1m in leasing charges as they are liable for leasing charges whether the trains are in use or not.

Looking at note 1.2, it is clear if SWR are liable for lease charges, even if not using the accepted 701s, then SWR must be paying out twice if they are also sub leasing back 707s and leasing 455s at same time.

Additionally they received another 67.2m in liquidated damages from Alstom (61m in 2021) . No specific item or note that suggests they are handing over any compensation to SWR though although maybe reflected through lower leasing charges.

There is a comment in note 2 about a £0.9m rebate (down from £6m in 2001)

They accepted 26 further 10car units during the year so things have move on a pace since then if now at 42. Also leases are only to Aug24 but with an option to extend by an additional 11 railway periods so co terminus with current NRC expiry of June 2025.

Note 8, fixed assets shows £393m of assets transferred from under construction to finished, so now £426m of finished trains.

Note 9 has £55m of other debtors, presumably Bombardier (now Alstom), Derby owe them that, but hadon't paid up by 31st December. Anything owed from their customer (SWR) would presumably be Trade Debtors.

Note 15 Financial commitments says still need to pay for £262m of contracted rolling stock (down from £430m in 2021). If you read this injunction with note 8 suggests bought about 70% of the fleet as at 31st December. As we know number of trains accepted (only 29 at December), they have made hefty stage payments on unaccepted one's and they are being included to get near to about 70% in the assets. Should debunk any wild theory that balance of order might be cancelled.

 

[AJDesiro]

Can be down to several factors. From the BBC report
"SWR said the delay was partly due to the impact of Covid-19. However, it acknowledged serious issues with the trains' software.
The train drivers' union ASLEF previously reported problems with door obstacle detectors, as well as the coupling process, faulty windscreen wipers and cab doors that were difficult to open."

They were ordered with driver operated doors, when staff and union relationships were low with management and before driver operated doors were agreed.
Also they were ordered as 20m long when other Aventras were 24m, which caused cab problems above
The software was outsourced to India and took a while to sort.

Are the 710s not 20m long?

 

[Snow1964]

I had a bit of a surprise while passing through Eastleigh yesterday afternoon - 2 x 701 out on test! The first photo shows a 10 coming out of Eastleigh TMD and a 5 car looped around the back of the station, the second well - thanks to the pointwork at Eastleigh, the 701 is travelling into the loop while the 450 is drawing forward across the junction heading up to London. Quite the nerve racking site from a distance!

Some of the test workings are not bit of gentle running in, but seem to include some high speed running, as an example this one ran to Woking, reversed and was 17 minutes early by Winchester

Realtime Trains | 5Q42 1814 Southampton Up Goods Loop to Eastleigh Trsmd | 30/06/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q42 1814 departure from Southampton Up Goods Loop to Eastleigh Trsmd on 30/06/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

2 trips like these and will have covered over 250 miles (is that still the test threshold)

 

[Invincible]

The 710 is 21.4m so the 701 is shorter and a different cab layout.
From https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/s...-for-class-701-emu-introduction/62185.article
"Problems are understood to include the cab layout, where the production sets differ from the design agreed with drivers’ trade union ASLEF"
Presumably now corrected?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Looking at note 1.2, it is clear if SWR are liable for lease charges, even if not using the accepted 701s, then SWR must be paying out twice if they are also sub leasing back 707s and leasing 455s at same time.

You mean taxpayers are and you have to wonder what view DfT take of all this as my assessment is the bill for running SWR is going to be much higher leasing two fleets along with all the extra costs for driver training.

 

[Wyrleybart]

You mean taxpayers are and you have to wonder what view DfT take of all this as my assessment is the bill for running SWR is going to be much higher leasing two fleets along with all the extra costs for driver training.

I find the whole thing pretty amazing - even casting the GWR 769/9 out of the lime light of farce. Surely the ASLEF officers were shown a completed class 701 cab ? If not why not ?
Understand one of the issues with the cabs related to a SWR wanting the length of 2x5 car to be the equivalent of 1x10 car at platform furniture level. In other words when 2x5 puilled up, all the doors etc lined up with the equivalent 1x10. Whatever, I would have thought the cab bulkhead issues was resolved and ASLEF have their promised square footage of space for their members.

I find it very difficult to understand how SWR and DfT and ASLEF can still be at loggerheads, with nearly half the fleet accepted, but the company still paying leasing charges for alternate trains. Taking it to the customer, why should they still pay the same fare to travel on an "old banger" while the swishy new one is parked in the sidings.

Utterly amazing

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I find the whole thing pretty amazing - even casting the GWR 769/9 out of the lime light of farce. Surely the ASLEF officers were shown a completed class 701 cab ? If not why not ?
Understand one of the issues with the cabs related to a SWR wanting the length of 2x5 car to be the equivalent of 1x10 car at platform furniture level. In other words when 2x5 puilled up, all the doors etc lined up with the equivalent 1x10. Whatever, I would have thought the cab bulkhead issues was resolved and ASLEF have their promised square footage of space for their members.

I find it very difficult to understand how SWR and DfT and ASLEF can still be at loggerheads, with nearly half the fleet accepted, but the company still paying leasing charges for alternate trains. Taking it to the customer, why should they still pay the same fare to travel on an "old banger" while the swishy new one is parked in the sidings.

Utterly amazing

It deserves an NAO investigation

 

[DelW]

Taking it to the customer, why should they still pay the same fare to travel on an "old banger" while the swishy new one is parked in the sidings.

Modern trains are usually much less comfortable than the "old bangers" they're replacing!

 

[DanNCL]

At the current rate the first 555 will carry passengers before the first 701. To put into perspective how bad that is for SWR and Alstom, the 555s hadn’t even been ordered when the 701s were supposed to have been entering service.

 

[The_Train]

At the current rate the first 555 will carry passengers before the first 701. To put into perspective how bad that is for SWR and Alstom, the 555s hadn’t even been ordered when the 701s were supposed to have been entering service.

At the current rate, there is a chance that a unit that has not even been designed yet, let alone built, will carry pax before 701s

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

At the current rate the first 555 will carry passengers before the first 701. To put into perspective how bad that is for SWR and Alstom, the 555s hadn’t even been ordered when the 701s were supposed to have been entering service.

and DLR B23's

 

[Mordac]

At the current rate, there is a chance that a unit that has not even been designed yet, let alone built, will carry pax before 701s

The HS2 trains!

 

[Invincible]

At the current rate the first 555 will carry passengers before the first 701. To put into perspective how bad that is for SWR and Alstom, the 555s hadn’t even been ordered when the 701s were supposed to have been entering service.

Although the 555 is a variation on Stadler's Metro platform in use since 2016

https://www.stadlerrail.com/en/products/detail-all/underground-trains/35/

Perhaps the variation is not as much as the 701s cab and Stadler have kept software development in house rather than outsourced it?.

 

[fgwrich]

At the current rate the first 555 will carry passengers before the first 701. To put into perspective how bad that is for SWR and Alstom, the 555s hadn’t even been ordered when the 701s were supposed to have been entering service.

Or the ‘franchise’ will be up! Less than 2 years to go now!

 

[Invincible]

Or the ‘franchise’ will be up! Less than 2 years to go now!

Now a "management contract" which is renewed every 2 years, so might be renewed again? At some stage they will have to put it up for new bids.

Looked like the 5Q50/5Q51 test from Eastleigh to Waterloo return ran today, no note of the 701 number on Realtimetrains? The 2nd part of the test to Poole and Staines back to Eastleigh did not run.
At some stage guess will be replaced by Waterloo to Windsor, via Feltham depot test runs, if the software behaves?

 

[Mike Machin]

I bet the Southern Railway didn’t have all this nonsense with the introduction of the 2-BILs, 2-HALs, 4-CORs etc.

In fact, what would today’s unions have made of the idea of the small 4-COR driving cab with just one tiny window to peek through on a murky winter’s night?

 

[fgwrich]

It does make me wonder though, when is enough too much technology for modern rolling stock? And I'm surprised Alstom hasn't taken the approach they took with the 345s to get these 701s into some kind of service - load them with a more basic version of the software without some of the more troublesome and complex stuff that seems to be causing the issues (what's the stuff that will eventually be used on the Windsor side again?), then update them when they're worked up a decent number of miles on them. Unless the software is that bad that they can't last a day without throwing a leg out of bed.

 

[NSEWonderer]

Well that Alstom approach on the 345s isnt fairing any better either. The software on the 701s tho is only part of the issue but not the main issue. It has had a plethora of issues plus ofc Alstom focusing a bit more with the increasingly troublesome 345s whilst making sure the c2c 720s smoothly get into service I'd not be surprised they're also stretched with the amount of available technicians and resources to also push a more quick effort on their side for the 701s

 

[Carlisle]

In fact, what would today’s unions have made of the idea of the small 4-COR driving cab with just one tiny window to peek through on a murky winter’s night?

Probably for the History & nostalgia thread, how was training & route refreshing done ?

 

[D365]

I bet the Southern Railway didn’t have all this nonsense with the introduction of the 2-BILs, 2-HALs, 4-CORs etc.

In fact, what would today’s unions have made of the idea of the small 4-COR driving cab with just one tiny window to peek through on a murky winter’s night?

Modern day "Human Factors", quite simply, did not exist.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Well that Alstom approach on the 345s isnt fairing any better either. The software on the 701s tho is only part of the issue but not the main issue. It has had a plethora of issues plus ofc Alstom focusing a bit more with the increasingly troublesome 345s whilst making sure the c2c 720s smoothly get into service I'd not be surprised they're also stretched with the amount of available technicians and resources to also push a more quick effort on their side for the 701s

If Alstom are concentrating on other classes why are SWR accepting the 701's if they don't work as specified?