Future of Ticket Office Consultations launched

[156421]

Ticket office staff are currently in an enclosed environment /room protected by a strong glass window for their safety and security, not only for themselves but for the security of sensitive customer transaction details and of course revenue /cash etc.

Many ticket office staff, will, as basically ‘floor walkers’, more easily become vulnerable to verbal and even physical abuse from ‘undesirable‘ customers and the less fit and able will find it hard work staying on their feet for most of their shift.

By all means Management should (again) have the ability for ongoing reviews ( in consultation with local Union reps.) of ticket office staffing levels and hours, as was always done.

Perhaps if they are unable to stand they could be provided with some sort of chair

 

[Iskra]

Wouldn't a less confrontational solution be to just completely get rid of ticket offices, and go back to allowing buy-on-board which would remove all passenger objections and the number of ticket transactions would still be small so the guards wouldn't be swamped. Current ticket office staff could then just become TTI's which opens up a pathway for them to become guards in the future if they wish, or they remain as TTI's until they retire/leave.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’d rather they focussed on properly enabling priv e-tickets everywhere and improving the website - no reason not to now that we have the portal.

Buying from a TVM is the worst of all worlds.

You'd probably want a mobile app if there isn't one if you're not enabling TVMs. Sometimes one does make a genuinely ad hoc journey.

Wouldn't a less confrontational solution be to just completely get rid of ticket offices, and go back to allowing buy-on-board which would remove all passenger objections and the number of ticket transactions would still be small so the guards wouldn't be swamped. Current ticket office staff could then just become TTI's which opens up a pathway for them to become guards in the future if they wish, or they remain as TTI's until they retire/leave.

It has occurred to me, slightly tangentially to this, that Merseyrail could restart on board sales as something for their pseudo-OBSs to do, which would reduce fare dodging and allow some booking offices to be closed. That said there may be concerns about potential assaults, particularly to steal cash.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Wouldn't a less confrontational solution be to just completely get rid of ticket offices, and go back to allowing buy-on-board which would remove all passenger objections and the number of ticket transactions would still be small so the guards wouldn't be swamped. Current ticket office staff could then just become TTI's which opens up a pathway for them to become guards in the future if they wish, or they remain as TTI's until they retire/leave.

In 12 months' time, this will be a total non issue as almost 100% of passengers will have adopted alternative, modern ticketing methods.

If it's practically 90% now, this latest nudge will have a significant positive impact on driving that higher, plus further contactless extensions covering large segments in London.

Hardly worth changing much now when it will have the desired effect. It's a far simpler message to say get an e-ticket or contactless card - simple, and something the overwhelming majority do now.

 

[Iskra]

You'd probably want a mobile app if there isn't one if you're not enabling TVMs. Sometimes one does make a genuinely ad hoc journey.



It has occurred to me, slightly tangentially to this, that Merseyrail could restart on board sales as something for their pseudo-OBSs to do, which would reduce fare dodging and allow some booking offices to be closed. That said there may be concerns about potential assaults, particularly to steal cash.

Cash transactions are in decline, but many retail businesses have a secure cash box that notes can be dropped into. A box could be installed in a cab easily, where the notes are dropped so the OBS never has more than say £50-100 on them, thus mitigating the risk somewhat.

 

[kkong]

I suspect there's just as much of an appetite to close in Wales and Scotland, but they don't want the fallout and headlines- England can go first, and they'll follow later.

I've mentioned this before on another thread, but ScotRail already had their consultation on ticket office changes about 18 months ago.

The consultation can be found here: https://www.scotrail.co.uk/scotrail-ticket-office-consultation

And ScotRail's response to the feedback here: https://www.scotrail.co.uk/about-scotrail/news/scotrail-welcomes-ticket-office-feedback-public

That said, I'm not aware of anything actually changing since their response in Feb 2022; has anyone heard anything?

 

[12LDA28C]

Out of interest, how many of you calling for ticket offices to remain, use them on a frequent basis?

From memory, the last time I used a ticket office was around 5 years ago, to buy a Lake District day rover at Crewe, it took the staff member a good 5 minutes to find it in the system, the impression I walked away with was that they couldn't really be bothered to deal with my request and I was an inconvenience.

It's quite rare that I buy a ticket but when I do, it's always from the ticket office except for topping up my Oyster card in London. I don't believe I've ever bought a train ticket online (apart from for Charter trains). I am however able to appreciate that many people prefer to buy online, just as those people should be able to appreciate that many people prefer to use the ticket office. Horses for courses, innit?

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Cash transactions are in decline, but many retail businesses have a secure cash box that notes can be dropped into. A box could be installed in a cab easily, where the notes are dropped so the OBS never has more than say £50-100 on them, thus mitigating the risk somewhat.

There are (were) stations were the cost of collecting, processing and banking the cash exceeded the cash actually on site, even with collections reduced to the minimum level supported by these armoured van firms. It was literally cheaper to throw the cash away, albeit they obviously didn't, and took the loss.

It's not just ticket office staff either - there are whole departments of auditors, accountants, reconcilers etc who work almost exclusively on "passenger accounts" - i.e. the admin work associated with running and auditing ticket offices etc. That's before you come to the planning and scheduling staff producing rosters etc. It's much more than just some chap in a nice country ticket office selling a few tickets into the city and then cashing up and going home.

 

[Iskra]

In 12 months' time, this will be a total non issue as almost 100% of passengers will have adopted alternative, modern ticketing methods.

If it's practically 90% now, this latest nudge will have a significant positive impact on driving that higher, plus further contactless extensions covering large segments in London.

Hardly worth changing much now when it will have the desired effect. It's a far simpler message to say get an e-ticket or contactless card - simple, and something the overwhelming majority do now.

I agree with what you are saying, I just think what I outlined would have garnered less uproar and been a slightly more humane approach, plus it would deliver a greater saving and been more consistent because then you could do away with them altogether. The writing must still be on the wall for the remaining 300+ because the number of paper transactions is only going one way.

 

[michael74]

Wouldn't a less confrontational solution be to just completely get rid of ticket offices, and go back to allowing buy-on-board which would remove all passenger objections and the number of ticket transactions would still be small so the guards wouldn't be swamped. Current ticket office staff could then just become TTI's which opens up a pathway for them to become guards in the future if they wish, or they remain as TTI's until they retire/leave.

Obviously you are not a revenue conductor on a busy route, most peak and holiday season trains we often struggle to get through one carriage let alone the whole train and 2 members of staff (3 if you include the driver) on each train, I dont see the TOCs agreeing to that somehow

 

[Iskra]

There are (were) stations were the cost of collecting, processing and banking the cash exceeded the cash actually on site, even with collections reduced to the minimum level supported by these armoured van firms. It was literally cheaper to throw the cash away, albeit they obviously didn't, and took the loss.

Appreciated, but in the situation I describe, the train would just drop of its cash at the depot at the end of the day or at a major station it passed through, thus streamlining cash collection substantially.

(For another thread, but I'd happily do away with cash altogether- it's a total waste of time, productivity (counting it) metal/paper, a theft risk, unhygienic and as you insinuate a lot of people don't understand that it costs cash to take cash (unless you're unscrupulous)).

 

[AlterEgo]

The difference being quite a few smaller ticket offices only have 1 member of staff on the station at any one time. I can't imagine there's many bank branches that are single staffed.

Yes, fair enough. But go down too far that line of argument and they will argue that the station is better off being unstaffed, or the office closed altogether.

 

[Iskra]

Obviously you are not a revenue conductor on a busy route, most peak and holiday season trains we often struggle to get through one carriage let alone the whole train.

Yes, but if most people are scanning E/M tickets (as people are now accustomed to doing) that's faster for both you and them (plus easier at their possibly gated destination station), and you'd possibly have a TTI to help you too.

 

[island]

P.S. Wonder what the future arrangements will be for anyone still wanting to buy a high value annual season ticket, maybe with a corporate cheque.

Annual season tickets are predominantly issued on ITSO now, so people can, for example, buy them online and load them via an NFC phone.

The cheque users will either need to travel to a station with full ticketing facilities if available, or get with the times and use a modern payment method.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One thought - how many Thameslink station staff are there against unit diagrams - could they be offered OBS jobs, thus solving a good chunk of the accessibility issues? They could do the ramp at stations without platform staff and sell tickets to those unable to use TVMs through disability or similar.

 

[michael74]

Yes, but if most people are scanning E/M tickets (as people are now accustomed to doing) that's faster for both you and them (plus easier at their possibly gated destination station), and you'd possibly have a TTI to help you too.

With respect it just isnt as easy as that, we cant sell every type of ticket, we dont have the time, and even with a TE its not always possible to get through the train.

 

[12LDA28C]

In 12 months' time, this will be a total non issue as almost 100% of passengers will have adopted alternative, modern ticketing methods.

If it's practically 90% now, this latest nudge will have a significant positive impact on driving that higher, plus further contactless extensions covering large segments in London.

Hardly worth changing much now when it will have the desired effect. It's a far simpler message to say get an e-ticket or contactless card - simple, and something the overwhelming majority do now.

I'm impressed that you can confidently predict the future, any idea what this weekend's lottery numbers will be?

Oh, and here's some figures which appear to debunk your repeated '10%' claim, from GWR's own ticket sales at selected stations: Barnstaple - percentage of tickets sold at the ticket office - 45.5% (online 48.9%). Dawlish 34.4% (online 40.6%). Didcot Parkway 25.8% (online 67.1%). Exmouth 28% (online 41.2%).

At London Paddington, almost 600,000 tickets were sold at the ticket office in 2022/23 and a further 645,000 sold from the TVMs. And yet 'almost' everyone' buys their tickets online, apparently.

 

[Iskra]

With respect it just isnt as easy as that, we cant sell every type of ticket, we dont have the time, and even with a TE its not always possible to get through the train.

You wouldn't be, 90% would have already bought them like now!

 

[michael74]

You wouldn't be, 90% would have already bought them like now!

See post #404 above....

 

[Iskra]

See post #404 above....

The numbers are only heading in one direction though...

 

[urbophile]

Chance would be a fine thing. Last week I tried to book tickets online for a journey from a South London suburban station to a town in Kent. Two trains, changing from Southern to Southeastern, if that makes a difference. The only options online were to print out tickets at a TVM, or to have them downloaded onto a card - I've forgotten its name, but it appeared to be a SE specific 'Metrocard" - which I didn't and don't possess. So knowing that the starting station had a staffed ticket office I decided the simplest and safest method (not being sure if the TVM would work) was to buy tickets in person. Unfortunately the member of staff got confused and mistook a Senior railcard for a Freedom pass (but that is another story) adding to the complications. But I could easily imagine that an ordinary member of the public trying to buy online could have similar complications. There is no substitute for the human touch.

This is another unfortunate example of a disintegrated rail network. If all TOCs played by the same rules, and all issued E-tickets as well as the option of buying paper ones, plus any other options they care to add in, we'd know what we were doing and people might accept the closure of ticket offices. As it is, the systems are all too confusing for ordinary mortals.

 

[Iskra]

Chance would be a fine thing. Last week I tried to book tickets online for a journey from a South London suburban station to a town in Kent. Two trains, changing from Southern to Southeastern, if that makes a difference. The only options online were to print out tickets at a TVM, or to have them downloaded onto a card - I've forgotten its name, but it appeared to be a SE specific 'Metrocard" - which I didn't and don't possess. So knowing that the starting station had a staffed ticket office I decided the simplest and safest method (not being sure if the TVM would work) was to buy tickets in person. Unfortunately the member of staff got confused and mistook a Senior railcard for a Freedom pass (but that is another story) adding to the complications. But I could easily imagine that an ordinary member of the public trying to buy online could have similar complications. There is no substitute for the human touch.

This is another unfortunate example of a disintegrated rail network. If all TOCs played by the same rules, and all issued E-tickets as well as the option of buying paper ones, plus any other options they care to add in, we'd know what we were doing and people might accept the closure of ticket offices. As it is, the systems are all too confusing for ordinary mortals.

This where GBR could really add some value...

 

[Simon75]

Looks like only Liverpool Street, Stansted Airport, Cambridge, Chelmsford, Colchester, Ipswich & Norwich are safe in some form at Greater Anglia.

That's good, had to use the ticket office at Liverpool Street, as the machines had no option for my disabled rail card
In addition the other month tried buying a ticket from a machine (different station), machine was playing up so had to go to the ticket office

 

[michael74]

The numbers are only heading in one direction though...

As has been said before, until we have a system where you can simply and easily buy the right ticket online you are whistling in the wind and I doubt it will in the next decade...

 

[Iskra]

As has been said before, until we have a system where you can simply and easily buy the right ticket online you are whistling in the wind and I doubt it will in the next decade...

I think it will be much sooner than that. Northern TVM's doing Rangers & Rovers are showing the art of the possible. Of course, the vast majority of tickets are indeed simple already. I suspect Forum Members ticket purchasing habits are a bit more niche than most regular rail users.

 

[peteb]

I think the main issue for the travelling public will be their loss of confidence in using the rail network. Even if ticket offices are open restricted hours there's nevertheless the opportunity to speak to a real person about buying a ticket or checking train times (now there's no printed timetables). Also there's the issue of staff safety. Ticket offices have glass screens for a reason. I would imagine a lone station staff member would feel quite vulnerable trying to sell people tickets on a platform. And these staff will still need on site welfare facilities. Basically it's a cost cutting exercise probably thought up by those who won't be affected.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Appreciated, but in the situation I describe, the train would just drop of its cash at the depot at the end of the day or at a major station it passed through, thus streamlining cash collection substantially.

(For another thread, but I'd happily do away with cash altogether- it's a total waste of time, productivity (counting it) metal/paper, a theft risk, unhygienic and as you insinuate a lot of people don't understand that it costs cash to take cash (unless you're unscrupulous)).

Not even the DfT would be stupid enough to suggest conveying any amount of cash by train in 2023!

I'm impressed that you can confidently predict the future, any idea what this weekend's lottery numbers will be?

Oh, and here's some figures which appear to debunk your repeated '10%' claim, from GWR's own ticket sales at selected stations: Barnstaple - percentage of tickets sold at the ticket office - 45.5% (online 48.9%). Dawlish 34.4% (online 40.6%). Didcot Parkway 25.8% (online 67.1%). Exmouth 28% (online 41.2%).

At London Paddington, almost 600,000 tickets were sold at the ticket office in 2022/23 and a further 645,000 sold from the TVMs. And yet 'almost' everyone' buys their tickets online, apparently.

Just because that is what some passengers (at some stations) currently choose to do - certainly does not mean that they are against any other forms of ticketing or payment, they may just need a nudge, or some one time help with the mobile app etc.

You're making out that passengers using those stations will be helpless souls without the ability to use a ticket office - when again, for 90% of the rest of the rail user demographic, nobody else seems to have an issue.

For most people it will just be an 'oh I better download the app then and register" moment.

Especially as some of those people are potentially paying more by using a ticket office in the first place - owing to some tickets only being available online etc.

 

[Iskra]

Not even the DfT would be stupid enough to suggest conveying any amount of cash by train in 2023!

Just because that is what some passengers (at some stations) currently choose to do - certainly does not mean that they are against any other forms of ticketing or payment, they may just need a nudge, or some one time help with the mobile app etc.

You're making out that passengers using those stations will be helpless souls without the ability to use a ticket office - when again, for 90% of the rest of the rail user demographic, nobody else seems to have an issue.

It wasn’t my suggestion, it was in response to a potential objection raised by someone else

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It's only what's happened in just about every other country in Europe, as mentioned in a previous post Sweden has no ticket offices whatsoever. Are you going to blame Shapps for that?

Nor does Sweden or most European countries have people standing on the station to offer advice. The industry needs to save money this half baked approach wont do that albeit I acknowledge others cynicism that its enabler to do so in due course. RMT will fight back whatever's proposed so just get on with closing them full stop and offering them roles for revenue protection.

 

[KendalR]

Away from tickets... Working on the railway I know how vital station staff are at communicating with signaller's when it comes to trespass incidents, concern for welfare cases, station faults, late platform changes, updating on the whereabouts of missing train crew, making signallers aware of the need for a connecting trains. As per Northern's plans, 2 hour slots of 'Journey Makers' isn't going to cut it.

Expect a considerable increase in delays and railway crime.

Can't see if anyone has mentioned it yet and whether you agree with the RMT and their tactics are not they have a link for all TOC's consultation emails with a template to use if you wish to raise your own concerns: https://www.rmt.org.uk/campaigns/rail/save-ticket-offices/