ScotRail website applying Club 50 discount to LNER-only Advance tickets

[kkong]

This discount should not be allowed as per the ScotRail Club 50 terms and conditions, which state:
"It excludes 'London North Eastern Railway only' and CrossCountry only' fares"
and
"Advance tickets: valid on the train specified on the ticket. ScotRail services only"

What do you think the likely outcome would be if these tickets were purchased on presented to the LNER guard as:
1. Paper ticket
2. ScotRail m-ticket

Both options are offered as fulfilment methods by the ScotRail website.

A screenshot from the ScotRail website is attached showing the discount applied.

The non-discounted ticket is £11.80 in each direction, which causes more confusion, because the quoted price of £9.80 represents a 17% discount instead of the expected 20%.

 

[BRX]

Total cost is 24.60, minus 20% gives 19.68 which is then rounded down to 19.60 (19.60/2 = 9.80)?

I would just buy it. If it's queried, then I don't see how they can blame you for an error on the part of the ticket seller - if that's what's happening.

 

[kkong]

Total cost is 24.60, minus 20% gives 19.68 which is then rounded down to 19.60 (19.60/2 = 9.80)?

I would just buy it. If it's queried, then I don't see how they can blame you for an error on the part of the ticket seller - if that's what's happening.

But the total is £11.80 x 2 = £23.60.

I did notice that ScotRail showed the undiscounted price as £24.60 in the final step in the basket for some reason.

Not sure where they're getting £24.60 from.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I've alerted ScotRail to their error.

 

[BRX]

Yes you're right... I was taking the 24.60 from how it's presented on the scotrail website. All rather strange!

 

[CyrusWuff]

Yes you're right... I was taking the 24.60 from how it's presented on the scotrail website. All rather strange!

Looking on BRFares it's showing as giving no discount for some LNER Advances, but not all of them.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Looking on BRFares it's showing as giving no discount for some LNER Advances, but not all of them.

It’ll be the new ones that came out last year

 

[kkong]

It’ll be the new ones that came out last year

Ah, probably the same ones that don't open ScotRail ticket barriers when using CCST.

 

[OscarH]

I've alerted ScotRail to their error.

Are ScotRail expected to keep up with all new ticket types and block as appropriate as its their railcard? That seems like a poor system if that's the case rather than it being LNER's job for choosing to create the ticket types

 

[Haywain]

Are ScotRail expected to keep up with all new ticket types and block as appropriate as its their railcard? That seems like a poor system if that's the case rather than it being LNER's job for choosing to create the ticket types

Ticket types shouldn't come into it - the discount is only supposed to be available on Scotrail services. This looks to be a problem with how they have set the discount up on their website.

 

[kkong]

Ticket types shouldn't come into it - the discount is only supposed to be available on Scotrail services. This looks to be a problem with how they have set the discount up on their website.

Not quite correct.

The discount is valid on all operators' services.

it's only Advance tickets that must be ScotRail only.

 

[OscarH]

Ticket types shouldn't come into it - the discount is only supposed to be available on Scotrail services. This looks to be a problem with how they have set the discount up on their website.

Is that encodable in the data? I couldn't see it from a brief skim, only by location or ticket type, but the restriction part of the data is very complicated, and I'm certainly no expert with it!

 

[BRX]

Ticket types shouldn't come into it - the discount is only supposed to be available on Scotrail services. This looks to be a problem with how they have set the discount up on their website.

Not sure it's to do with Scotrail's website. The same result comes up on others including the railukforums / trainsplit one.

 

[Class800]

I don't really think anyone can predict what would happen if presented, but it might be similar to Groupsave being used on incorrect operators which can result in a rather harsh outcome.

 

[OscarH]

Not sure it's to do with Scotrail's website. The same result comes up on others including the railukforums / trainsplit one.

Yeah, it's definitely not a retail site fault, it's a data error so a TOC is to blame. Just not sure which TOC is responsible

 

[Haywain]

Not quite correct.

The discount is valid on all operators' services.

it's only Advance tickets that must be ScotRail only.

OK, must have missed that in skim reading the details.

Yeah, it's definitely not a retail site fault, it's a data error so a TOC is to blame. Just not sure which TOC is responsible

I would still blame the TOC setting the discount.

I've alerted ScotRail to their error.

And the relevant people at LNER?

 

[OscarH]

I would still blame the TOC setting the discount.

Interesting, thanks, who's responsible for what is always a mystery to me once it gets more complicated than fare setters! I suppose either ScotRail have to consider every newly added fare, or LNER have to consider every discount when adding a fare, so it's a bit awkward either way

 

[CyrusWuff]

Is that encodable in the data? I couldn't see it from a brief skim, only by location or ticket type, but the restriction part of the data is very complicated, and I'm certainly no expert with it!

Looking at the Fares Data - Instructions for Use file on the RDG Data Download site, it looks like you can bar by one or more of ticket type, route code, origin location or restriction code, or you can bar it for everything (presumably if you wanted a "seasonal" discount.)

The most recent fares file is from April (for the March fare change), and doing a search through there for the Club 50 discount (C50 for Ticket Office/on-board use, OC5 for Online), there's a route restriction on 00027 (LNER only) and 00481 (LNER Trains only) but it looks like it's only where restriction code RH applies in both cases, whereas LNER's Advances take restriction GA. So I'd assume TIS are ignoring that and looking for a specific ticket type restriction instead. Those are present for the "traditional" LNER Advances (BxS and OxS), but not the new ones.

 

[Adam Williams]

Is that encodable in the data? I couldn't see it from a brief skim, only by location or ticket type, but the restriction part of the data is very complicated, and I'm certainly no expert with it!

I strongly suspect it isn't properly encodable in the data. Presumably though, when LNER introduced this particular advance 1st class tier they'd have specified on the PAF which discounts were permissible (and  not included the Scotrail Club 50 card)? Unless the ticket types were already there of course and the discount was added after - this problem feels to me like a fundamental flaw with the way the data is structured and maintained though really. There should be some automatically generated railcatd ticket type restriction records (in total ban mode) if Scotrail hasn't explicitly said it should be valid on certain ticket types IMO. I think it's difficult to point the finger conclusively at Scotrail here as being at fault, the system they have to work within is just bad.

Of course, LNER could probably bodge a fix to this problem by blocking the discount status code in S3 from being able to reserve a seat, though I disagree that the reservation system should even permit doing this.

 

[OscarH]

I strongly suspect it isn't properly encodable in the data. Presumably though, when LNER introduced this particular advance 1st class tier they'd have specified on the PAF which discounts were permissible (and  not included the Scotrail Club 50 card)? Unless the ticket types were already there of course and the discount was added after - this problem feels to me like a fundamental flaw with the way the data is structured and maintained though really. There should be some automatically generated railcatd ticket type restriction records (in total ban mode) if Scotrail hasn't explicitly said it should be valid on certain ticket types IMO. I think it's difficult to point the finger conclusively at Scotrail here as being at fault.

Yeah, it's not encodable which is the cause of this whole thing - the bodge is barring LNER advance ticket types which creates this mess. It's all fundamentally broken, that's a restriction that absolutely should be encodable. None of this will improve without chucking out the data format and starting again imo - there's no reliable notion of what an advance ticket is still for god's sakes

I've never been sure whether a PAF actually says the TOC creating the product will action things, or if its a notice for other TOCs to action things like that - it's the kind of mess the industry would make

Of course, LNER could probably bodge a fix to this problem by blocking the discount status code in S3 from being able to reserve a seat, though I disagree that the reservation system should even permit doing this.

Oh god, it's best we don't encourage them abusing the reservation system more than they already do :P

 

[Wallsendmag]

And the relevant people at LNER?

Yes, just reading the PAF now which has no mention of Club 50. Also it's very much up to the TOC owning the gates etc to update their systems

 

[kkong]

The most recent fares file is from April (for the March fare change)

Was there not a fares file update to cover the ScotRail fares increase which took effect from 3rd July?

 

[Adam Williams]

My understanding is that, only snapshots of the fares data are shared via the open data process. If you want the daily feed you need to shell out for it and have a reason to use it

 

[kkong]

I have noticed that Trainsplit are also applying the 20% ScotRail Club 50 discount to LNER-only Advance tickets.

 

[MrJeeves]

I have noticed that Trainsplit are also applying the 20% ScotRail Club 50 discount to LNER-only Advance tickets.

As mentioned above, it's a data problem and up to the TOC to fix. Retailers are just using the information provided to them by the industry to sell tickets.

 

[kkong]

I see.

I think I shall buy one with the discount for my next intra-Scotland journey and see what, if anything, the LNER train manager says.