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The Rosslare - Dublin gets six services per day Monday to Friday only four on Saturdays and only three on Sundays and they are mostly CAF 29000 DMUs which are so poorly equipped for the routes they operate? And it was full and standing from Wicklow past Bray until not one single seat until Mallin a couple of people got off).
Why can’t Iarnrod Eirann run more services? I know there is a rolling stock shortage but there is enough for one train every other hour, even most of the entire network only double tracked.
You're not quite correct there. Most of the Iarnroid Eireann network is single track....only Dublin-Cork-Cobh and Bangor-Belfast-Bray are double, plus the first few miles of the Dublin-Sligo line. Outside of the small number of main cities - which, with the exception of Dublin, Belfast and Cork - are small by UK standards - Ireland is a very thinly-populated rural country and has a huge weekend 'migration' of students and predominantly young skilled and office workers from Dublin 'down home' on a Friday evening and back to the capital on a Sunday evening....which IE manage to the best of their available resources with additional weekend trains and strengthening were possible. The example that you quote - Rosslare to Dublin - has long single line sections which limit the number of trains that can be operated. Through most of the week a single four car Rotem class 22200 inter-city unit suffices for the traffic on offer....but for the Friday evening (down) and Sunday evening (up) peaks, four car - or preferably eight car - CAF class 29000 commuter sets are used to give the maximum possible number of seats and standing room. It's not ideal....but it's the best use of available resources. I believe that additional inter-city units are on order to meet the rapidly growing demand. Perhaps you were unlucky enough to have only a four car unit on your train for some reason?
In my view: low population density and historic under-investment. Together they make for a railway which requires significant subsidy and thin resourcing.
That is slowly changing with more capital investment, thanks to the country being more affluent and increasing focus on sustainability.
IE do an excellent job in my view, providing a very reliable service with the resources they have
In my view: low population density and historic under-investment. Together they make for a railway which requires significant subsidy and thin resourcing.
That is slowly changing with more capital investment, thanks to the country being more affluent and increasing focus on sustainability.
IE do an excellent job in my view, providing a very reliable service with the resources they have
Their staff are very nice (but the Irish mostly are) and while the frequency and infrastructure frustrate me it’s the sparse rural Ireland I love, when the UK is so overbuilt and overpopulated Ireland is so unspoiled but it comes with a very thin service that will take many billions to remedy.
A good start would be more double tracking, there is the space but signalling is another because line speeds are so low in areas.
You're not quite correct there. Most of the Iarnroid Eireann network is single track....only Dublin-Cork-Cobh and Bangor-Belfast-Bray are double, plus the first few miles of the Dublin-Sligo line. Outside of the small number of main cities - which, with the exception of Dublin, Belfast and Cork - are small by UK standards - Ireland is a very thinly-populated rural country and has a huge weekend 'migration' of students and predominantly young skilled and office workers from Dublin 'down home' on a Friday evening and back to the capital on a Sunday evening....which IE manage to the best of their available resources with additional weekend trains and strengthening were possible. The example that you quote - Rosslare to Dublin - has long single line sections which limit the number of trains that can be operated. Through most of the week a single four car Rotem class 22200 inter-city unit suffices for the traffic on offer....but for the Friday evening (down) and Sunday evening (up) peaks, four car - or preferably eight car - CAF class 29000 commuter sets are used to give the maximum possible number of seats and standing room. It's not ideal....but it's the best use of available resources. I believe that additional inter-city units are on order to meet the rapidly growing demand. Perhaps you were unlucky enough to have only a four car unit on your train for some reason?
Used it several times and only ever had a 4 car 29000 on it. It then stays in Rosslare and does the first Rosslare-Dublin which continues to Dundalk.
I popped over to do the new Gorey evening service and got a 29000 on that. Everything else should be a 22000 ICR.
The 29000 units are totally unsuitable for the line. Pre booked seats are not honoured, if issued at all, there are no plug sockets and not nearly as comfortable as the 22000 units.
Used it several times and only ever had a 4 car 29000 on it. It then stays in Rosslare and does the first Rosslare-Dublin which continues to Dundalk.
I popped over to do the new Gorey evening service and got a 29000 on that. Everything else should be a 22000 ICR.
The 29000 units are totally unsuitable for the line. Pre booked seats are not honoured, if issued at all, there are no plug sockets and not nearly as comfortable as the 22000 units.
I've also had a 29000 Rosslare all the way to Dublin, and frankly its off putting. Not suitable for a relatively long journey, and it would be nice if resources become available in future to improve the provision on this route. Also not sure what the ferry connections are like these days from Rosslare, but last time I looked sail rail was impossible....
I've also had a 29000 Rosslare all the way to Dublin, and frankly its off putting. Not suitable for a relatively long journey, and it would be nice if resources become available in future to improve the provision on this route. Also not sure what the ferry connections are like these days from Rosslare, but last time I looked sail rail was impossible....
Last time I travelled by that route - in September last year - the connections en route to Ireland were fine. In the current timetable, the 07 48 from Paddington arrives in Swansea at 10 34, connecting with the 10 58 departure, arriving Fishguard Harbour 12 26. The ferry sails at 13 00, arriving Rosslare 16 30 and the evening train to Dublin departs at 17 30. The frustrating thing is that - after passing through the customs shed - the bus that takes foot passengers off the ferry makes a great loop, passing by the station, before doubling back to the ferry terminal to pick up your
luggage.....whence it's an almost ten minute walk back to the station on a narrow path alongside all the Lorries leaving the boat and totally exposed to all the wind and rain that the Irish Sea can throw at it! The return journey is a different proposition though....if you want to catch the morning ferry to Fishguard, you have to stay overnight in Rosslare.
IIRC, the Dublin-Galway via Mullingar and Cherryville Junction-Athy (or Carlow?) sections were originally double track, but were singled as an economy measure during the depression of the 1920s and '30s. Outside the Greater Dublin suburban area there is absolutely no justification for the eye-watering expenditure that extensive double tracking would entail.
Last time I travelled by that route - in September last year - the connections en route to Ireland were fine. In the current timetable, the 07 48 from Paddington arrives in Swansea at 10 34, connecting with the 10 58 departure, arriving Fishguard Harbour 12 26. The ferry sails at 13 00, arriving Rosslare 16 30 and the evening train to Dublin departs at 17 30. The frustrating thing is that - after passing through the customs shed - the bus that takes foot passengers off the ferry makes a great loop, passing by the station, before doubling back to the ferry terminal to pick up your
luggage.....whence it's an almost ten minute walk back to the station on a narrow path alongside all the Lorries leaving the boat and totally exposed to all the wind and rain that the Irish Sea can throw at it! The return journey is a different proposition though....if you want to catch the morning ferry to Fishguard, you have to stay overnight in Rosslare.
IIRC, the Dublin-Galway via Mullingar and Cherryville Junction-Athy (or Carlow?) sections were originally double track, but were singled as an economy measure during the depression of the 1920s and '30s. Outside the Greater Dublin suburban area there is absolutely no justification for the eye-watering expenditure that extensive double tracking would entail.
Interesting thanks. Glad there are still proper boat connections. I have occasionally heard at Paddington on announcements about connections for sailings to Ireland. We should be doing as much as possible to promote it as an environmentally friendly way of crossing the Irish Sea, shame about the connections UK bound I suppose.
IIRC, the Dublin-Galway via Mullingar and Cherryville Junction-Athy (or Carlow?) sections were originally double track, but were singled as an economy measure during the depression of the 1920s and '30s. Outside the Greater Dublin suburban area there is absolutely no justification for the eye-watering expenditure that extensive double tracking would entail.
It was double from Dublin (Broadstone) to Ballinasloe, Roscommon, Longford and Drumree on the Kingscourt line (later cut back to Clonsilla); also from Attymon to Athenry and Oranmore to Galway. It was double from Sallins to Naas, Cherryville Junction to Carlow and Limerick to Limerick Junction. There were also odd bits: Waterford to Fiddown, Newcastle to Wicklow, Kilkenny to Lavistown, the Harcourt Street line.
Source: S. Maxwell Hajducki’s A Railway Atlas of Ireland (David & Charles, 1974).
It was double from Dublin (Broadstone) to Ballinasloe, Roscommon, Longford and Drumree on the Kingscourt line (later cut back to Clonsilla); also from Attymon to Athenry and Oranmore to Galway. It was double from Sallins to Naas, Cherryville Junction to Carlow and Limerick to Limerick Junction. There were also odd bits: Waterford to Fiddown, Newcastle to Wicklow, Kilkenny to Lavistown, the Harcourt Street line.
Source: S. Maxwell Hajducki’s A Railway Atlas of Ireland (David & Charles, 1974).
It was double from Dublin (Broadstone) to Ballinasloe, Roscommon, Longford and Drumree on the Kingscourt line (later cut back to Clonsilla); also from Attymon to Athenry and Oranmore to Galway. It was double from Sallins to Naas, Cherryville Junction to Carlow and Limerick to Limerick Junction. There were also odd bits: Waterford to Fiddown, Newcastle to Wicklow, Kilkenny to Lavistown, the Harcourt Street line.
Source: S. Maxwell Hajducki’s A Railway Atlas of Ireland (David & Charles, 1974).
Dublin to Bray is, of course, double-track, part of the Rosslare route. Collooney to Sligo was also double. Cherryville to Carlow was singled, prior to partition, in 1917 as a wartime economy measure.
I've also had a 29000 Rosslare all the way to Dublin, and frankly its off putting. Not suitable for a relatively long journey, and it would be nice if resources become available in future to improve the provision on this route. Also not sure what the ferry connections are like these days from Rosslare, but last time I looked sail rail was impossible....
I've not had the displeasure of one from Rosslare yet, but I have from Wexford. And several hops between the intermediate stations too.
The timetable of the ferries either has changed quite recently, or is about to imminently. The train times on either side haven't. It used to work really well, I did Bridgend to Wexford once and the connections were as easy as they could possibly be. Dublin to Swansea was a bit more awkward, had a long wait for the ferry at Rosslare and then the train from Fishguard was 45 minutes late too.
IIRC, the Dublin-Galway via Mullingar and Cherryville Junction-Athy (or Carlow?) sections were originally double track, but were singled as an economy measure during the depression of the 1920s and '30s. Outside the Greater Dublin suburban area there is absolutely no justification for the eye-watering expenditure that extensive double tracking would entail.
The Republic spent most of its history being pretty poor by Western European standards - the adage about Ireland's biggest export being its own people has long had quite a ring of truth about it. The Troubles didn't exactly encourage investment in Northern Ireland either and before that it was easy for the Protestant-dominated Stormont government to ignore rural Catholic areas, who I believe got the worst of the post-war closures.
Most of the Iarnroid Eireann network is single track....only Dublin-Cork-Cobh and Bangor-Belfast-Bray are double, plus the first few miles of the Dublin-Sligo line.
Outside the Greater Dublin suburban area there is absolutely no justification for the eye-watering expenditure that extensive double tracking would entail.
Yes, that's a rapidly developing residential corridor for Cork commuters....as was the (Dublin Heuston)-Inchicore-Hazelhatch corridor, which was quadrupled just before the collapse of the "Celtic Tiger", giving the only lengthy stretch of four track railway in Ireland (about 11 miles). However, it isn't going to be viable to double lengthy stretches of single track lines in rural areas.
Also how are the fares so low? Connolly to Sligo is only €44 return, which is a three hour trip, and a whole hour to Wicklow from Connolly only cost me €11. Is it the Irish government pays higher subsidies to railways than the Treasury through the DfT does to Network Rail and the TOCs? Is the fact there is much less infrastructure to maintain anything to do with it? Prices in Ireland are inflated in other areas, from rents to food etc but with railways they have always stayed unbelieveably cheap compared to the UK.
Also how are the fares so low? Connolly to Sligo is only €44 return, which is a three hour trip, and a whole hour to Wicklow from Connolly only cost me €11. Is it the Irish government pays higher subsidies to railways than the Treasury through the DfT does to Network Rail and the TOCs? Is the fact there is much less infrastructure to maintain anything to do with it? Prices in Ireland are inflated in other areas, from rents to food etc but with railways they have always stayed unbelieveably cheap compared to the UK.
A good question so I checked. Last year, total revenue was €224m, with a government operating grant of €582m. So a very different position to the UK, which is the opposite way round as a ratio
Interesting thanks. Glad there are still proper boat connections. I have occasionally heard at Paddington on announcements about connections for sailings to Ireland. We should be doing as much as possible to promote it as an environmentally friendly way of crossing the Irish Sea, shame about the connections UK bound I suppose.
Yes, that's a rapidly developing residential corridor for Cork commuters....as was the (Dublin Heuston)-Inchicore-Hazelhatch corridor, which was quadrupled just before the collapse of the "Celtic Tiger", giving the only lengthy stretch of four track railway in Ireland (about 11 miles). However, it isn't going to be viable to double lengthy stretches of single track lines in rural areas.
Midleton and surrounds has grown out of sight in the last 20 years or so, and they only reopened that bit of line in 2009. Originally it was supposed to run out to Youghal one way and Blarney the other but that bit of the project got (apparently permanently) iced in the financial crisis.
It is also unnecessary. A railway with barely any freight and - outside of conurbations - no local services doesn’t need doubling throughout. It only needs (well, not „need“ actually, but it would be desirable and affordable) dynamic loops placed according to the standard passenger service to be run (two-hourly, hourly, half-hourly).
Midleton and surrounds has grown out of sight in the last 20 years or so, and they only reopened that bit of line in 2009. Originally it was supposed to run out to Youghal one way and Blarney the other but that bit of the project got (apparently permanently) iced in the financial crisis.
Looking at that I can't believe they're planning frequencies of every 10 minutes on the suburban network for a city of ~300,000. Most of South London doesn't get that and there's an awful lot more than 300,000 people there!
Looking at that I can't believe they're planning frequencies of every 10 minutes on the suburban network for a city of ~300,000. Most of South London doesn't get that and there's an awful lot more than 300,000 people there!
Well first of all, Ireland has a coalition government (including the Green Party) that is committed to significant investment levels in public transport over and above roads investment.
They are talking about capability here rather than will actually happen straight away. There is a lot of development planned in East Cork which may well merit the further increased frequencies later.
Frequency is already every 30 mins on each of the two East Cork branches to Cobh and Midleton, meaning every 15 mins between Glounthaune and Cork.
I’d expect that frequency would be likely to be to be initially every 20 minutes on those two branches, which means a 10 minute frequency between Glounthaune and Cork.
I think that you have to bear in mind that this railway line is not so much a city line, but rather a commuter line from East Cork where there are two branches to Cobh & Midleton, with most of the stations east of Glounthaune, with both Carrigtwohill and Midleton being railheads for much of east Cork for Park & Ride.
It will now link up with a northern commuter service to/from Mallow (which is currently every 30 minutes), which is a railhead for north Cork.
It does also serve a major industrial area at Little Island as well.
The objective of this investment is to try and execute a major modal shift into and out of the city from North and East Cork.
This is being backed up with significant investment in and expansion of the bus service in Ireland by the National Transport Authority, both in the city through the Busconnects programme (www.busconnects.ie) and throughout the country under the Connecting Ireland programme (https://www.nationaltransport.ie/connecting-ireland/).
The project is receiving significant EU funding which requires it to be in place by 2026, so it's planning for the future.
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Also how are the fares so low? Connolly to Sligo is only €44 return, which is a three hour trip, and a whole hour to Wicklow from Connolly only cost me €11. Is it the Irish government pays higher subsidies to railways than the Treasury through the DfT does to Network Rail and the TOCs? Is the fact there is much less infrastructure to maintain anything to do with it? Prices in Ireland are inflated in other areas, from rents to food etc but with railways they have always stayed unbelieveably cheap compared to the UK.
All Irish PSO funded public transport fares were all cut by 20% in April and May 2022 as an incentive to get people back onto public transport, and halved for those under 25.
Those fares have remained in place during 2023.
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The Rosslare - Dublin gets six services per day Monday to Friday only four on Saturdays and only three on Sundays and they are mostly CAF 29000 DMUs which are so poorly equipped for the routes they operate? And it was full and standing from Wicklow past Bray until not one single seat until Mallin a couple of people got off).
Why can’t Iarnrod Eirann run more services? I know there is a rolling stock shortage but there is enough for one train every other hour, even most of the entire network only double tracked.
To go back to this - there are only two return services on the southeastern line booked for 29k sets. The 05:35 ex-Rosslare to Dundalk, the 17:33 Connolly-Rosslare, and now the new 20:05 Connolly-Gorey and 22:25 Gorey-Connolly.
Historically the loadings on the two Rosslare trains above were so large that the 22k would not comfortably carry them, and hence the 29k was used instead, having more standing room. Due to infrastructure restrictions at Rathdrum, four coach trains are the limit that can operate on the route.
29k sets will substitute in the event of a 22k not being available as there are no spare 22k sets in Connolly.
There are two principal constraints on adding additional services:
1) Driver shortage - there is a shortage of drivers currently arising from the knock on effects of Covid, and the knock on effects ofa long running industrial dispute which meant no new drivers being trained. There are now new drivers coming on stream and as incremental drivers are added to the staff, the company is adding services on a phased basis.
2) Rolling stock shortages - it has taken a significant time (much of it caused by prevarication by the NTA), to deliver 41 additional intermediate coaches for the Intercity Railcar (ICR) fleet, and these will allow for the reformation of sets to longer formations, and to allow for more sets to operate individually rather than in multiple as at present.
Slightly OT, but I remember one Sunday evening back in the early 1980s riding on the double-headed eleven coach evening Rosslare-Dublin train, which had to reverse into the headshunt at Rathdrum to allow a Southbound ammonia train to pass. A totally different railway nowadays of course!
Going back to the question of double-tracking. The only section that might be worth doing would be an extension from Maynooth, but only if Dublin commuting increase further and its commuting hinterland grows. However, although Kilcock would be the logical first step, the proximity of the Royal Canal means that adding a second track and a platform would be difficulty enough: increasing the amount of car parking is probably too costly. That leaves the possibility of extending to Enfield, where there is a bit more space, but the town isn’t that big. Realistically, doubling is just not worth it anywhere on Irish Rail.
Well first of all, Ireland has a coalition government (including the Green Party) that is committed to significant investment levels in public transport over and above roads investment.
They are talking about capability here rather than will actually happen straight away. There is a lot of development planned in East Cork which may well merit the further increased frequencies later.
Frequency is already every 30 mins on each of the two East Cork branches to Cobh and Midleton, meaning every 15 mins between Glounthaune and Cork.
I’d expect that frequency would be likely to be to be initially every 20 minutes on those two branches, which means a 10 minute frequency between Glounthaune and Cork.
I think that you have to bear in mind that this railway line is not so much a city line, but rather a commuter line from East Cork where there are two branches to Cobh & Midleton, with most of the stations east of Glounthaune, with both Carrigtwohill and Midleton being railheads for much of east Cork for Park & Ride.
It will now link up with a northern commuter service to/from Mallow (which is currently every 30 minutes), which is a railhead for north Cork.
It does also serve a major industrial area at Little Island as well.
The objective of this investment is to try and execute a major modal shift into and out of the city from North and East Cork.
This is being backed up with significant investment in and expansion of the bus service in Ireland by the National Transport Authority, both in the city through the Busconnects programme (www.busconnects.ie) and throughout the country under the Connecting Ireland programme (https://www.nationaltransport.ie/connecting-ireland/).
The project is receiving significant EU funding which requires it to be in place by 2026, so it's planning for the future.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
All Irish PSO funded public transport fares were all cut by 20% in April and May 2022 as an incentive to get people back onto public transport, and halved for those under 25.
Those fares have remained in place during 2023.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
To go back to this - there are only two return services on the southeastern line booked for 29k sets. The 05:35 ex-Rosslare to Dundalk, the 17:33 Connolly-Rosslare, and now the new 20:05 Connolly-Gorey and 22:25 Gorey-Connolly.
Historically the loadings on the two Rosslare trains above were so large that the 22k would not comfortably carry them, and hence the 29k was used instead, having more standing room. Due to infrastructure restrictions at Rathdrum, four coach trains are the limit that can operate on the route.
29k sets will substitute in the event of a 22k not being available as there are no spare 22k sets in Connolly.
There are two principal constraints on adding additional services:
1) Driver shortage - there is a shortage of drivers currently arising from the knock on effects of Covid, and the knock on effects ofa long running industrial dispute which meant no new drivers being trained. There are now new drivers coming on stream and as incremental drivers are added to the staff, the company is adding services on a phased basis.
2) Rolling stock shortages - it has taken a significant time (much of it caused by prevarication by the NTA), to deliver 41 additional intermediate coaches for the Intercity Railcar (ICR) fleet, and these will allow for the reformation of sets to longer formations, and to allow for more sets to operate individually rather than in multiple as at present.
Great post, thanks.
So it seems the Dublin -Rosslare services bear the worst of all IEs shortcomings, shortage of 22000s, shortage of drivers, lack of infrastructure (single track, 4 car formations only) to up frequencies. I know it’s not their fault but just shows how much there is to be done. At least their govt is more pro rail than the UK, so there is hope.
Going back to the question of double-tracking. The only section that might be worth doing would be an extension from Maynooth, but only if Dublin commuting increase further and its commuting hinterland grows. However, although Kilcock would be the logical first step, the proximity of the Royal Canal means that adding a second track and a platform would be difficulty enough: increasing the amount of car parking is probably too costly. That leaves the possibility of extending to Enfield, where there is a bit more space, but the town isn’t that big. Realistically, doubling is just not worth it anywhere on Irish Rail.
I think that you have to bear in mind that the whole premise of Irish government policy right now is to significantly increase public transport provision in Ireland, through bus and rail services. That will require additional track capacity across the rail network.
DART+ West involves doubling from Maynooth west as far as the new DART depot just before Kilcock. Personally I think that it will extend further to Kilcock in time and additional loops will be added between Mullingar and Kilcock, and more double tracking.
DART+ SouthWest involves four tracks from west of Inchicore to Islandbridge Junction.
Galway/Athenry is now getting an additional passing loop at Oranmore, but the plan is to double that entire section eventually to facilitate additional commuter and intercity traffic into Galway.
There is a plan to also double Killonan Junction to Limerick Junction (that’s on the Limerick to Limerick Junction line).
Irish Rail has now been awarded EU funding to examine the feasibility of four tracking some of the northern line from Connolly.
Outside of that we have to wait for the all island strategic rail review to finally be published. That will have recommendations about how the network is to further develop and that will shape Irish government policy decisions.
But I do think that certainly Portarlington to Athlone will be a definite candidate for extended dynamic loops or doubling completely.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Great post, thanks.
So it seems the Dublin -Rosslare services bear the worst of all IEs shortcomings, shortage of 22000s, shortage of drivers, lack of infrastructure (single track, 4 car formations only) to up frequencies. I know it’s not their fault but just shows how much there is to be done. At least their govt is more pro rail than the UK, so there is hope.
The Rosslare line is starting from a low base, but I’d certainly expect more services to be added over time, particularly an additional morning service, but that will be dependent on driver and rolling stock resources.
The driver resource issue is what is primarily preventing increased frequencies across the network, but they are adding services incrementally as resources permit, such as the recent evening Dublin-Gorey additional service.
Whilst slightly OT, it looks like it might be good news for this https://waterford-news.ie/2023/02/20/waterford-wexford-rail-line/. Having to drive from London to Limerick (via the Pembroke-Rosslare ferry) a couple of years ago, I found it inexplicable to learn that this route had been abandoned in 2010. Apparently at the time it was down to 1 train a day in each direction which is hardly going to encourage the public. But it looks like it could be a strategically important route if it could attract investment. Obviously reinstatement would require a fair bit of work including installation of a few passing loops. It would make sense to me to run 2tph from Limerick to Rosslare to provide a useful east coast-west coast route, perhaps throwing in a new interchange platform/remodelling of Limerick Junction?
Whilst slightly OT, it looks like it might be good news for this https://waterford-news.ie/2023/02/20/waterford-wexford-rail-line/. Having to drive from London to Limerick (via the Pembroke-Rosslare ferry) a couple of years ago, I found it inexplicable to learn that this route had been abandoned in 2010. Apparently at the time it was down to 1 train a day in each direction which is hardly going to encourage the public. But it looks like it could be a strategically important route if it could attract investment. Obviously reinstatement would require a fair bit of work including installation of a few passing loops. It would make sense to me to run 2tph from Limerick to Rosslare to provide a useful east coast-west coast route, perhaps throwing in a new interchange platform/remodelling of Limerick Junction?
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