East-West Rail (EWR): is the proposed service pattern a missed opportunity?

[Bletchleyite]

I think it will be a significant market for Cambridge passengers travelling to the Midlands and North West. I know several people (myself included) who drive across to MKC to go to the North West as trains from East Anglia are painfully slow.

Wouldn't you just go via London?

 

[Roger B]

Wouldn't you just go via London?

I can think of a few reasons... faster, less hassle - especially with luggage, earlier arrival in north-west using off-peak fares, and cheaper.

Fastest trains Cambridge - Kings Cross are around 50 mins, Euston - MKC around 35 mins, and it takes at least 10 mins from alighting at Kings Cross to boarding at Euston, making 95 mins plus. And that's assuming: there's no congestion getting to/from tube*, the tube's behaving itself, and there's a fast train to MKC and beyond scheduled to depart within a minute or two of boarding. And there's no contingency should there be any delays.

* If I've a tight connection, I generally walk between Euston and Kings Cross - you can't be certain there won't be a few minutes servive gap on the tube, and there's often congestion getting to/from tube platforms.

Whereas the journey time by car for much of the day from Cambridge to Milton Keynes is between an hour and an hour and a quarter. You may also get an earlier arrival in the northwest on an off-peak tocket if starting your journey at MKC rather than Cambridge. And I reckon the cost of the fuel used would be less than the difference between fares of starting at Cambridge rather than MKC.

I used to have relatives in both Cambridge and Leighton Buzzard, and east-west rail would have been wonderful. But too late now.

 

[Trainbike46]

Wouldn't you just go via London?

you would either go via London, via nuneaton/birmingham with XC, via the EMR liverpool service, or if very Northwest, via Edinburgh

I doubt EWR will change much for Cambridge-NW journeys in that respect

Surprisingly often via london would come out cheaper. This was particularly surprising when I had to go to Liverpool from Cambridge, and it would almost always be cheaper to go to london, and then back up to liverpool with Avanti; it would usually take a similar amount of time to using the direct EMR (with a change at Ely)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jul 2023 ==

I can think of a few reasons... faster, less hassle - especially with luggage, earlier arrival in north-west using off-peak fares, and cheaper.

Fastest trains Cambridge - Kings Cross are around 50 mins, Euston - MKC around 35 mins, and it takes at least 10 mins from alighting at Kings Cross to boarding at Euston, making 95 mins plus. And that's assuming: there's no congestion getting to/from tube*, the tube's behaving itself, and there's a fast train to MKC and beyond scheduled to depart within a minute or two of boarding. And there's no contingency should there be any delays.

* If I've a tight connection, I generally walk between Euston and Kings Cross - you can't be certain there won't be a few minutes servive gap on the tube, and there's often congestion getting to/from tube platforms.

Whereas the journey time by car for much of the day from Cambridge to Milton Keynes is between an hour and an hour and a quarter. You may also get an earlier arrival in the northwest on an off-peak tocket if starting your journey at MKC rather than Cambridge. And I reckon the cost of the fuel used would be less than the difference between fares of starting at Cambridge rather than MKC.

I used to have relatives in both Cambridge and Leighton Buzzard, and east-west rail would have been wonderful. But too late now.

yes, EWR will be a (much) better option for travelling Cambridge-MKC (and surroundings), however, I wouldn't desribe that as Northwest by any stretch; for travelling to the northwest (Liverpool, Manchester, etc.) changing at MKC isn't ideal anyway as many fast avanti trains skip MKC

 

[Bletchleyite]

you would either go via London, via nuneaton/birmingham with XC, via the EMR liverpool service, or if very Northwest, via Edinburgh

I doubt EWR will change much for Cambridge-NW journeys in that respect

Particularly post HS2, where Milton Keynes Central would definitely be a slower option - a branch line crawl to Bletchley, a change, another change then a less frequent, slower WCML classic service, rather than "Cambridge Cruiser" to Kings Cross, 10 minutes' brisk walk (or the Tube if you prefer, but I bet you walk further through tunnels) and a fast, frequent HS2 journey.

EWR is all about regional connectivity, really. Just like the Liverpool-Norwich service alluded to, which is just a string of regional services bolted together that provides nicely for overlapping journeys, but if you want to actually go from Norwich to Liverpool you're better off doing so via London, particularly post HS2.

 

[richieb1971]

If only Bletchley was a city station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If only Bletchley was a city station.

It's interesting that decisions made during the development of Milton Keynes have essentially caused this issue in the same way as they did for Skelmersdale (though at least MK has a railway, allowing MKC to have been built later).

The original new town concepts were for a self contained town in which you'd live, work and play, but that was based on a 1960s-70s idea of far less specialised employment and rapidly became unworkable - Milton Keynes for instance has slightly more inbound commuting than out. If this had been realised in the 1970s, you'd probably have built MK a few miles further south and centred it on a redeveloped Bletchley (or just had an off-centre central business district until it expanded more, which plenty of places do). Just as you might have done similarly for Runcorn, or built Skem as a mirror of itself with the railway in the middle (fortunately Telford at least got this right!) But MK's deliberate decision was not to have one of the original towns as the centre, and that led us where we are. Plus add to that that the railway was an increasingly irrelevant anachronism - the car was the future.

On the other hand, it'd not be that hard to build a Denbigh Hall Curve and 5th track which would allow MKC to become the junction station once again. It's a pity that wasn't part of the MKC project itself, but I guess BR's funding was limited and the Marston Vale Line looked likely not to make it out of the 1990s - the idea of EWR just wasn't on the agenda.

 

[richieb1971]

It's interesting that decisions made during the development of Milton Keynes have essentially caused this issue in the same way as they did for Skelmersdale (though at least MK has a railway, allowing MKC to have been built later).

The original new town concepts were for a self contained town in which you'd live, work and play, but that was based on a 1960s-70s idea of far less specialised employment and rapidly became unworkable - Milton Keynes for instance has slightly more inbound commuting than out. If this had been realised in the 1970s, you'd probably have built MK a few miles further south and centred it on a redeveloped Bletchley (or just had an off-centre central business district until it expanded more, which plenty of places do). Just as you might have done similarly for Runcorn, or built Skem as a mirror of itself with the railway in the middle (fortunately Telford at least got this right!) But MK's deliberate decision was not to have one of the original towns as the centre, and that led us where we are. Plus add to that that the railway was an increasingly irrelevant anachronism - the car was the future.

On the other hand, it'd not be that hard to build a Denbigh Hall Curve and 5th track which would allow MKC to become the junction station once again. It's a pity that wasn't part of the MKC project itself, but I guess BR's funding was limited and the Marston Vale Line looked likely not to make it out of the 1990s - the idea of EWR just wasn't on the agenda.

Milton Keynes itself could do more to help the situation. Since it is a big debate subject with EWR. The MKC station is not well connected to all business avenues of the city. There are lots of dots that are not joined and its not just the railway. If Milton Keynes keeps winning new business it should help join those dots either by a closed circuit monorail that includes Bletchley on it or some other means. That way it doesn't matter if you get off at Bletchley or MKC your covered for train exchange or going shopping or getting straight to the business estates.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Milton Keynes itself could do more to help the situation. Since it is a big debate subject with EWR. The MKC station is not well connected to all business avenues of the city. There are lots of dots that are not joined and its not just the railway. If Milton Keynes keeps winning new business it should help join those dots either by a closed circuit monorail that includes Bletchley on it or some other means. That way it doesn't matter if you get off at Bletchley or MKC your covered for train exchange or going shopping or getting straight to the business estates.

Gadgetbahnen and somebody who doesn't know MK very well ahoy!



(Feel free to start a thread on MK local transport and I'll have some views but I have a feeling they'll not be like yours!)

 

[Bald Rick]

Most folk think like me except for London commutes.

and all those people who park at station car parks who are not going to London….

 

[richieb1971]

and all those people who park at station car parks who are not going to London….

If I use Bedford as an example of a station of percentages of travellers to who go to London, it must be around 90%. Or at least 90% of travellers going south. Very few people are ever on P4 waiting for trains, usually its 8-10 people, maybe 20-25 on a really busy day. I'm talking per train service.

I will admit there are some going other places. What do you think is the main attraction to MKC? Shopping/Work commute?

I must admit, when you watch EWR videos the main theme seems to be a housing commute to either Oxford or Cambridge. The MKC segment seems largely bolted on as a nicety.

It does make me wonder if congestion between Bletchley and MKC becomes a problem just how far EWR are willing to go on substantial changes to the railway itself to make it work.

 

[Bald Rick]

If I use Bedford as an example

There’s a lot more to the country than Bedford.

What do you think is the main attraction to MKC?

The Station, and the frequent departures away from the place.

 

[cle]

There are a lot of companies based in CMK, and folks from the broader region are basically forced to drive. Now, if you live in Bicester, or Bucks (Winslow, hopefully Aylesbury one day, a big place with not much going on and a **** London service too) - there will be inbound railway.

It also links folks to a main stop on the WCML, with hourly services to Manchester and Liverpool, and others (West Midlands is well served from Oxford and Bicester) - and access to Northampton and the Trent Valley stops too. There is also football, gigs and a massive shopping centre with a JL. Not much more admittedly, vs similarly sized cities, for cultural pursuits.

Oxford also has a lot of jobs, education of course, and then cultural/leisure/tourist appeal too. Cambridge is the same, with even more tech/bio growth. There will much outbound and inbound from those key nodes, and actually Bicester too - tons of shopping (foreign and Brit visitors) which creates many (admittedly fairly local) jobs - but it's also a very fast growing town where you could in theory work in London, B'ham, Oxford or MK (with EWR) comfortably, so a lot of opportunities and a great location.

 

[Magdalia]

Oxford also has a lot of jobs ..... Cambridge is the same, with even more tech/bio growth. There will much outbound and inbound from those key nodes

This is what East West Rail is for. Everything else is just icing on the cake. The service pattern will be driven by moving people in and out of Cambridge and Oxford.

Plans are still at an early stage but I think the current suggested service pattern points to an increased use of Ridgmont as a station for the MK area. In particular it is the closest station to Cranfield University and Airfield, and almost adjacent to M1 Junction 13 and the A421.

 

[Falcon1200]

Perhaps, eventually, post-HS2 there might be fast WCML services calling at Bletchley, as well as Milton Keynes, providing connections from the Cambridge and Bedford directions?

 

[a good off]

That will get 4tpd if its lucky. Its already understood that any significant increase above that needs interventions elsewhere.

It had been noticed by the operators that room was successfully found for all the diverted liners coming via the WCML when Nuneham Viaduct was closed. Admittedly, it was a bit tight at times but I didn’t notice any real issues from a controller perspective and the now vacant diversionary paths could be used for Northampton Gateway. There is a big opportunity (sticking to the thread topic) for Northampton Gateway to be served by Southampton via East West Rail.

 

[Class 170101]

One thing to find paths in disruption by flexing operators around slightly but in the planning world not so easy with rights to consider of affected operators.

 

[The Planner]

It had been noticed by the operators that room was successfully found for all the diverted liners coming via the WCML when Nuneham Viaduct was closed. Admittedly, it was a bit tight at times but I didn’t notice any real issues from a controller perspective and the now vacant diversionary paths could be used for Northampton Gateway. There is a big opportunity (sticking to the thread topic) for Northampton Gateway to be served by Southampton via East West Rail.

Vast majority were ran non-compliant and were whacked in. You cannot plan like that.

 

[a good off]

Agreed, but if they didn’t cause many problems to other services (which they didn’t on the WCML) then maybe the compliance rules need revisiting…

 

[The Planner]

Agreed, but if they didn’t cause many problems to other services (which they didn’t on the WCML) then maybe the compliance rules need revisiting…

No one will do that as the region won't accept a potential performance hit. How much ZZ unexplained or sub threshold actually occured. How many trains ran underweight etc etc.

 

[a good off]

And that’s exactly the can’t do attitude that strangles the railfreight industry where no one will even look at slightly tweaking existing services to accommodate, as discussed above. I didn’t notice any nosedive in WCML performance caused by the extra freights. We were all really surprised.

Getting back to EWR, it will also provide another route for Southampton to serve DIRFT and the Northwest, avoiding London.

 

[The Planner]

And that’s exactly the can’t do attitude that strangles the railfreight industry where no one will even look at slightly tweaking existing services to accommodate, as discussed above. I didn’t notice any nosedive in WCML performance caused by the extra freights. We were all really surprised.

Getting back to EWR, it will also provide another route for Southampton to serve DIRFT and the Northwest, avoiding London.

Its not a can't do, its the performance regime NR signs up to and the other constraints the Network Code impose. I agree that running a class 4 infront of a stopper should be always be considered but if you expect a TOC to start accepting 3/4 minute or more flexes on random services you aren't going to see it.

 

[cle]

Perhaps, eventually, post-HS2 there might be fast WCML services calling at Bletchley, as well as Milton Keynes, providing connections from the Cambridge and Bedford directions?

Potentially. I'd think anything on the slows/Northampton line will call, but they mostly do anywhere. I saw a few services running fast LB-MKC in the future pattern which might not be smart.

On the fasts, will depend on future frequency (same issue for Watford, and why MKC got its bi-di/p6 fix) - once Manchester is on HS2, I'd think 1tph of the residual WCML service could be tested out at Bletchley. There will still be a decent service I'd expect. Watford want (and justifes) one too though.

 

[Snow1964]

Some new quotes from CEO of the line

Failing to develop around railway stations on the East West Rail route through Cambridgeshire would be a “missed opportunity”, says its chief executive.

Beth West told the Cambridge Independent the £5bn route is not just a railway but an “economic project” that is designed to bring sustainable growth across the region.

She said the route gives planners the chance to avoid “piecemeal development” but admits the East West Railway Company (EWR Co) is only responsible for creating the opportunity.

Ms West also said the company was “working our socks off” to ensure that diesel trains do not run on the railway.

“If you look at East West Rail as an economic project rather than a railway project then what can East West Rail bring, what are the land opportunities around those stations and what is the potential for development,” Ms West explained.

She said it was these opportunities that led to the EWR Co suggesting that the population of Cambourne – which is due to get a new station on the line – could grow from 9,200 to a massive 53,400, while Tempsford in Bedfordshire, the site of another proposed station, could swell from 600 people to 44,000, a figure dubbed “insane” by the parish council chairman David Sutton.

Ms West said: “If you have a masterplan for a place, you’re able to put in the social infrastructure as well, so that’s schools and GP surgeries – all the things that we all get really stressed about when there’s piecemeal development. By looking at the station location like at Tempsford, there’s an opportunity there to do some really great placemaking. So that’s what the basis of those numbers was about, and because East West Rail is an economic project that’s designed to bring sustainable growth across the region – but ultimately this is up to local authorities.”

Ms West said they had looked at the region’s Local Plans, noting “somewhere that there’s not a railway station means that you can’t really get that kind of growth there”.

She said in her view it “would be unfortunate” for local authorities to not consider the stations in their plans for future development.

Ms West also addressed the controversial topic of electrification of the new railway, which has not yet been confirmed.

She told the Cambridge Independent: “Nobody wants a diesel train on a new railway. We are working really hard to look at what the options are going to be to make this an electrified railway. The technology is evolving rapidly in terms of trains.

East West Rail CEO says line can help drive major growth

Beth West said the £5bn route is not just a railway but an ‘economic project’.

www.cambridgeindependent.co.uk

 

[zwk500]

Some new quotes from CEO of the line

East West Rail CEO says line can help drive major growth

Beth West said the £5bn route is not just a railway but an ‘economic project’.

www.cambridgeindependent.co.uk

Absolutely right on developing around the stations (to nobody's surprise). However the comments about electrification seem designed to get people's hopes up for OLE but then deliberately evasive about the fact it's absolutely not going to be wired from the off.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I see Gemma Gardner, the (young?) journalist-author of this piece has worked hard at getting a 'balanced' article here. However, she has also picked up the American habit of using "explain" as a synonym for "say", or, in this case, "asked" (it doesn't really make grammatical sense), see:

“If you look at East West Rail as an economic project rather than a railway project then what can East West Rail bring, what are the land opportunities around those stations and what is the potential for development,” Ms West explained.

She didn't "explain" anything of the sort, of course.