Utilising CIV with Eurostar

[crablab]

I have a ticket on the 07:04 Eurostar departure to Brussels on the 29th.

I also hold a CIV (RDG -> LNE) single (unfortunately not bought against an itinerary).

I intended to take the 0455 Reading to Paddington, which would give me enough time to be at St Pancras in excess of the 30 minutes they require.

Unfortunately, due to the industrial action on the 29th, it looks like the 0455 has been removed from the timetable and I don't really see how else I can get there (without rerouting myself via RailAir etc.)

I've already checked if I can just move my Eurostar to a later departure but their website shows no availability.

So I'm probably going to be contacting Eurostar asking what to do, but I thought best to check here on what I am, theoretically, entitled to.

Some questions:
1. Given the 0455 has just been removed from the published timetable, but not explicitly "cancelled", am I entitled to rely on CIV/NRCoT provisions? (I would argue yes, despite what ToCs say)
2. Since GWR have cancelled their service, should they be responsible for rerouting in the first instance?
3. If I were to just show up late on the first train available after the cancellations, would Eurostar still be expected to reroute me?

 

[30907]

F8rst thoughts:

You could try GWR for a taxi to Maidenhead whence EL is running.

ES still have seats available on all trains bar the 0901 so in theory they should allow you to travel when a seat is available - they are normally pretty good on this.
Might be wise to get evidence of the cancellation!

 

[ThameslinkUser]

in excess of the 30 minutes they suggest

30 mins is not a suggestion, it is a requirement. The suggestion is 90 mins.

 

[hkstudent]

30 mins is not a suggestion, it is a requirement. The suggestion is 90 mins.

OP is still within the valid time for the transfer.
The minimum transfer time in the station is 35 min, while the transfer time between Paddington and St Pancras is 55 min.
Adding on Paddington's 15-minute transfer time, OP is just about 7-minute excess in the minimum requirement.

Removal from the published timetable after you have got the ticket is still considered as cancel in essence.

Contact GWR first but I doubt they will offer any. Guess you may need to get to Eurostar to arrange a later one.

 

[crablab]

it is a requirement

Indeed - adjusted Thanks.

Contact GWR first but I doubt they will offer any. Guess you may need to get to Eurostar to arrange a later one.

This is rather what I fear I'll try E* first, but it then has a knock on to my itinerary on the continent. Ideally I would prefer GWR to uphold their responsibility.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Why not contact Eurostar and see what they say

 

[crablab]

Why not contact Eurostar and see what they say

I have already done exactly that, but a later Eurostar impacts on my subsequent itinerary on the continent (and there's only so much slack before trains run out for the evening) so I would prefer rerouting earlier in the day, by the party who has actually caused the inconvenience

 

[30907]

I have already done exactly that, but a later Eurostar impacts on my subsequent itinerary on the continent (and there's only so much slack before trains run out for the evening) so I would prefer rerouting earlier in the day, by the party who has actually caused the inconvenience

So it's taxi to Maidenhead - or a late evening train to Padd and a hotel.
Or even the last Brussels train on the Friday night and a hotel there, if ES will rebook you for zilch.

 

[crablab]

I think I'm unlikely to get any of those options, however I can try!

The "rerouting" that Google suggests is an RA1 to Heathrow, Heathrow Express to Paddington and a taxi (not sure what time the Circle Line starts on a Saturday) to St Pancras.

Maybe this would have been simpler when GWR was a 'normal' franchise, as an RA1 ticket would presumably have been inconsequential to arrange from one part of First Group to another.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

(not sure what time the Circle Line starts on a Saturday)

0452 from Paddington Suburban (C&H)

 

[fandroid]

Having a lot of experience of both RA1 and dashing from Heathrow to St Pancras/Kings Cross I think I would go for the via Heathrow option. Shift from Bus to HEx at terminal 5 and decide once on HEx whether to take Circle etc or taxi from Paddington. If you sit on HEx at about the joining point between the two units, then you get to Paddington near the ramp that leads to the bridge that links to both Circle etc and taxis.

RA1 often arrives early so might get you onto the previous HEx.

The Circle etc route is very quick, as long as a train turns up when you want it to! If on the Circle etc get off towards the back to minimise walking distance at St Pancras.


Then ask GWR for your money back. (Or do it in advance)

 

[crablab]

Having a lot of experience of both RA1 and dashing from Heathrow to St Pancras/Kings Cross I think I would go for the via Heathrow option. Shift from Bus to HEx at terminal 5 and decide once on HEx whether to take Circle etc or taxi from Paddington.

Then ask GWR for your money back. (Or do it in advance)

Yup - I think this is what I'd plan to do personally. But I'm waiting to hear back from GWR as to what their position is!

Especially as the combination of RA1 + Heathrow Express is quite an expensive method of getting to Paddington!

 

[Watershed]

1. Given the 0455 has just been removed from the published timetable, but not explicitly "cancelled", am I entitled to rely on CIV/NRCoT provisions? (I would argue yes, despite what ToCs say)

The removal from the timetable has been effectuated by cancelling it. It's just that the reason code used in internal industry systems is different to an on-the-day cancellation (PG), and that this causes it to display in a different manner (i.e. not at all in journey planners). So - in short, yes.

A parallel could be made with EU261; it is well established that any flight cancellation, regardless of how much notice is given, counts as a cancellation for the purposes of EU261, thus giving effect to the duty of care provisions (even if, provided >2 weeks' notice is given, no compensation is due).

There's nothing in the NRCoT or PRO that qualify rights based on the amount of notice given, so a "pre-planned" cancellation counts just the same as any other one.

2. Since GWR have cancelled their service, should they be responsible for rerouting in the first instance?

Yes. The operator 'at fault' is always the party your rights under the PRO are exercised again. Under NRCoT 28.2, and operator in a position to assist must do so, but it's unlikely that this condition is engaged in the circumstances.

3. If I were to just show up late on the first train available after the cancellations, would Eurostar still be expected to reroute me?

No, but probably not for the reasons you think. It's simply that the CIV don't recognise the concept of split ticketing in the same way as the NRCoT do. So although you may hold a ticket to London International CIV, this is a separate contract to that for your onward journey on the Eurostar. So technically speaking Eurostar would be quite entitled to tell you to get lost.

In practice they tend to be much more pragmatic than this, particularly where you hold a CIV ticket, but the only way to guarantee protection is to have a through ticket - i.e. an Interrail pass.

 

[NewcastleBrown]

It's simply that the CIV don't recognise the concept of split ticketing in the same way as the NRCoT do.

This may be a stupid question then, but what is the point of selling tickets to London International CIV then if split tickets aren't recognised?

 

[Deerfold]

In practice they tend to be much more pragmatic than this, particularly where you hold a CIV ticket, but the only way to guarantee protection is to have a through ticket - i.e. an Interrail pass.

Is this why they stopped doing through bookings from major rail stations in the UK?

 

[island]

Is this why they stopped doing through bookings from major rail stations in the UK?

I thought it was because the one remaining chap in an office in Ashford who processed all the domestic bookings retired and wasn't replaced.

 

[Watershed]

This may be a stupid question then, but what is the point of selling tickets to London International CIV then if split tickets aren't recognised?

Selling? It's not really clear; it's likely to be a very small market given how difficult and little-known CIV tickets are, and the fact that you have to plan the train times separately.

But from the passenger's perspective, they offer the benefit of having fewer, if any, time restrictions than an equivalent ticket to London Terminals (very useful if you'll be travelling at times when an Anytime ticket would otherwise be needed). And I'd say it probably increases the likelihood of discretion being exercised, even if it doesn't change the legal position.

Is this why they stopped doing through bookings from major rail stations in the UK?

No, that was (allegedly) the result of their "upgraded" bookings or reservations system not being able to handle through journeys to/from the UK. It sounds like they realised there wasn't much money in it and thus decided not to include it in the specification to their supplier, but perhaps I'm being too cynical there.

 

[crablab]

But from the passenger's perspective, they offer the benefit of having fewer, if any, time restrictions than an equivalent ticket to London Terminals (very useful if you'll be travelling at times when an Anytime ticket would otherwise be needed).

They are also valid for use in a 2 month period (including the singles), which I don't think any other ticket is?

 

[Alex365Dash]

They are also valid for use in a 2 month period (including the singles), which I don't think any other ticket is?

Offshore Returns to/from Aberdeen are also valid for two months, although these can only be bought if you work on an offshore oil rig in the North Sea. (Hence the location!)

 

[paul1609]

I thought it was because the one remaining chap in an office in Ashford who processed all the domestic bookings retired and wasn't replaced.

I know some of the ex Eurostar Ashford Sales staff through my railway preservation activities. It was because the number of sales of through tickets from anywhere outside of the south east was tiny despite their best efforts at promoting them and the financial benefit to Eurostar didn't cover the office costs or even the cost of providing a bespoke ticketing system when the time came for replacement.

 

[M28361M]

If it's any use to the OP, there is a Megabus from Reading at 0345 which reaches Victoria Coach Station at 0535.

 

[Deerfold]

No, that was (allegedly) the result of their "upgraded" bookings or reservations system not being able to handle through journeys to/from the UK. It sounds like they realised there wasn't much money in it and thus decided not to include in the specification to their supplier, but perhaps I'm being too cynical there.

At one point they did say it was coming later. Then they stopped saying that.

 

[crablab]

If it's any use to the OP, there is a Megabus from Reading at 0345 which reaches Victoria Coach Station at 0535.

At least it's only a fiver!

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

No, but probably not for the reasons you think. It's simply that the CIV don't recognise the concept of split ticketing in the same way as the NRCoT do. So although you may hold a ticket to London International CIV, this is a separate contract to that for your onward journey on the Eurostar. So technically speaking Eurostar would be quite entitled to tell you to get lost.

I wouldn't call this a split - surely the CIV fare only exists to create a "through" journey with the extra protection offered by the CIV rules? A split in the domestic part of the journey would create trouble, indeed. In my limited experience of trouble involving Eurostar, they're very reasonable and helpful

 

[crablab]

Eurostar were indeed reasonable and helpful when I spoke to them today
As a "goodwill gesture" they have agreed I can exchange my ticket for a later service, if needed.

Unfortunately this has a knock on effect to the rest of my journey so I will still try and get GWR to honour my rerouting request so I can preserve the original itinerary.

 

[Haywain]

I will still try and get GWR to honour my rerouting request so I can preserve the original itinerary.

I think the problem here will be that you didn't buy it alongside an itinerary.

 

[redreni]

I think the problem here will be that you didn't buy it alongside an itinerary.

Indeed, the relevant directive states (my emphasis):

10. ‘through ticket’ means a ticket or tickets representing a trans-
port contract for successive railway services operated by one
or several railway undertakings;

So carriers can't get out of their PRO obligations just because you used split tickets. But you do have to show it's a contract which may be difficult if you've bought different tickets from different places and don't have an itinerary for the through journey.

Not sure if it's possible to buy a CIV ticket to St Pancras and a Eurostar ticket from a single retailer?

 

[crablab]

Not sure if it's possible to buy a CIV ticket to St Pancras and a Eurostar ticket from a single retailer?

Even Trainline doesn't let you do this.

 

[redreni]

Then Eurostar's voluntary willingness to be flexibile really is the only thing giving them any advantage over airlines. But for that, one might as well book a flight and just accept that it's not the airline's problem if you don't make it to the airport on time...

Frustrating when you think what might have been if, as channel tunnel planners assumed, the UK had joined the Schengen area and the channel tunnel rail link could have been fully integrated into the EU's rail network. Turn up and go, through-ticketing and full PRO protection were all up for grabs.

 

[crablab]

Having spoken to GWR, they state that because it's a strike day there are "no services" to reroute me onto and they don't provide alternatives (buses, taxis, ticket acceptance) on strike days.

Their suggestion was to use the ticket a day early (and presumably pay for my own hotel).

It sounds to me like they are ultimately claiming that strikes are a 3rd party action outside of the railway's control.