ScotRail Super Off Peak Return Glasgow to Neilston

[trainJam]

Glasgow to Neilston Day Returns:
BRFares suggests there exists a Super Off-Peak Day Return at £4

National Rail Enquires also gives a £4 option but says its an "Anytime" ticket!
ScotRail offers a Super Off-Peak Day Return at £4
I cannot find it on Avanti West Coast - the cheapest ticket offered is £5 which is the Off-Peak Day Return.
I also cannot find it on trainsplit type websites.
(See images)

I have followed the restriction code H4 when entering the times into the systems:

BRFares:

Outward Travel & Return Travel​
Restriction Code: H4 Restricted Days: All days Mondays to Sundays​
Not valid at weekends. Not valid Monday to Friday on trains timed to depart before 11:00. Not valid Monday to Friday for boarding in Edinburgh, Glasgow or Aberdeen from 15:00 until 20:00.

Why is this the case?


Images

 

[JonathanH]

Bookable on Scotrail's mobile application and available as an m-ticket or, I think, on a smartcard.

Not sure that it is available anywhere else.

 

[Watershed]

There is is indeed a £4 Super Off-Peak Day Return for this journey, as with many other ScotRail journeys where there's an Off-Peak Day Return.

In their infinite wisdom, ScotRail have decided that this ticket type (OPB) can only be issued as an m-ticket or to their own smartcards (which work off a different backend system to smartcards issued by other National Rail TOCs). Most retailers don't support m-tickets or ScotRail smartcards, so can't sell this ticket type.

 

[yorkie]

I believe this is not compliant with the TSA, and also an abuse of a dominant market position by Scotrail.

If anyopne at Scotrail is reading this, if you don't fix it, you may face something like this:

Collective competition claim against Govia Thameslink Railway

This press release hit the newswires yesterday: COLLECTIVE COMPETITION CLAIM AGAINST GOVIA THAMESLINK RAILWAY FOR OVERCHARGING RAIL PASSENGERS ON BRIGHTON MAINLINE SINCE OCTOBER 2015 London 6 July 2021 – An application to commence an opt-out collective action (“Claim”) was launched in the...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[route101]

Never knew these existed on this route. I never use the M tickets so never see these fares.

 

[kkong]

I believe this is not compliant with the TSA, and also an abuse of a dominant market position by Scotrail.

If anyopne at Scotrail is reading this, if you don't fix it, you may face something like this:

The introduction of these fares was a requirement of the former Abellio ScotRail Franchise Agreement, which was between Abellio and The Scottish Ministers:

28.3 New Super Off-Peak day return
On or before the end of the first Franchisee Year, the Franchisee shall introduce a new Super Off-Peak day return product on all flows which currently have an existing Off-Peak Day Return to or from Glasgow, Edinburgh or Aberdeen.
The Super Off-Peak day return will only be available on Smartcard.
The initial price of the Super Off-Peak return will be around 20% lower than the current Off-Peak return ticket as at the Franchise Commencement Date.

ScotRail is now in public ownership, so it would still be The Scottish Ministers who would need to be pursued if anyone wants to take up this matter.

ScotRail operationally can't or won't withdraw or change the fulfilment method of these fares without the approval of the Ministers.

 

[yorkie]

The introduction of these fares was a requirement of the former Abellio ScotRail Franchise Agreement, which was between Abellio and The Scottish Ministers:



ScotRail is now in public ownership, so it would still be The Scottish Ministers who would need to be pursued if anyone wants to take up this matter.

I don't think that's a valid defence to breaching the law.

But both parties could be in deep trouble.

It is Scotrail's responsibility to inform Ministers of their obligations, just as much as it is the Ministers responsibility not to ask Scotrail to breach their obligations.

I wonder if Scotrail pointed out this would be anti-competetive and not compliant with the TSA? I suspect not; if they did then things would get really interesting if the Ministers instructed them to do it anyway.

Perhaps someone should submit some FOI requests...

 

[kkong]

I wonder if Scotrail pointed out this would be anti-competetive and not compliant with the TSA?

Just so we're on the same page, which specific section(s) of the TSA do you think is/are being breached?

 

[yorkie]

Just so we're on the same page, which specific section(s) of the TSA do you think is/are being breached?

OK firstly, do you think (or do you have anything in writing to say) this is a basic or non-basic fare, and do you think this is a permanent, temporary or special fare?

 

[kkong]

OK firstly, do you think (or do you have anything in writing to say) this is a basic or non-basic fare, and do you think this is a permanent, temporary or special fare?

I haven't seen anything which says anything about the Super Off-Peak being a basic fare or otherwise.

And its existence for several years now would seem to categorise it as a permanent fare, although again I haven't seen anything to explicitly confirm this.

Schedule 5.1 of the Franchise Agreement categorises the new Super Off-Peak fare as "unregulated" in its matrix of fare types, although I'm not sure if this is relevant to discussion regarding the TSA.

 

[yorkie]

I haven't seen anything which says anything about the Super Off-Peak being a basic fare or otherwise.

And its existence for several years now would seem to categorise it as a permanent fare, although again I haven't seen anything to explicitly confirm this.

Schedule 5.1 of the Franchise Agreement categorises the new Super Off-Peak fare as "unregulated" in its matrix of fare types, although I'm not sure if this is relevant to discussion regarding the TSA.

OK so you aren't familiar with the TSA; this is explains your post #6, which didn't take into account the TSA, though the information you provided about the wrongdoing is interesting, it doesn't validate Scotrail's actions.

It's clearly a Basic, Permanent fare, in which case, quoting from the Guide to the TSA, the following should apply:

A Basic Product is a rail product that is sold in exchange for all of the approved methods of payment

Lead Retailers have an obligation to sell all Basic Products

All Stations have the right to sell any Permanent Fare that is created.

If anyone from Scotrail management is reading this, the sooner you comply, the better; the longer you leave it, the more chance there is that Scotrail will be next in line after GTR, facing a trial through the courts.

This would be costly for Scotrail and therefore the company would be wise to inform the relevant Ministers of the error and rectify it immediately.

 

[kkong]

A Basic Product is a rail product that is sold in exchange for all of the approved methods of payment
Lead Retailers have an obligation to sell all Basic Products
All Stations have the right to sell any Permanent Fare that is created.

Which of these three statements do you believe ScotRail is not permitting?

Do you know that ScotRail are preventing any retailers from retailing the Super Off-Peak product?

Or is it perhaps that the product fulfilment method is limited to smartcard and m-ticket, and the product could be sold by any retailer or station with the correct equipment to fulfil it?

Edit: Section 6-7 (4) of the TSA provides as follows:

6-7 (4) Restriction on the Sale of e-Ticket Fares

(a) An Operator may not Sell any e-Ticket Fare that has been Created (and which has not been discontinued or replaced) unless:-

(i) it Created that Fare (by itself or in conjunction with any other Operator(s)); or

(ii) it has been notified by the (Operator(s)) which Created it that it is permitted to Sell that Fare.

The Super Off-Peak fares clearly are e-Ticket fares (as defined in the TSA).

Perhaps ScotRail have simply not notified any other Operator(s) that they are permitted to sell the Super Off-Peak fares?

As you will know, these Super Off-Peak fares are valid on ScotRail trains only, so there is no Percentage Allocation to consider for other Operator(s).

 

[yorkie]

That's an 'interesting' interpretation

If these fares were e-tickets, this problem would be (mostly) avoided; however they aren't; m-tickets are an inferior, temporary product (see threads on the subject) and these ones are tied to a specific app.

The clause regarding e-tickets is merely to ensure that the applicable fares are issued in traditional formats; most of the operators who were blocking e-tickets have since relented; the main exception being London Underground, e.g. for cross London transfers, although even that has a solution in the works.

As you will know, these Super Off-Peak fares are valid on ScotRail trains only, so there is no Percentage Allocation to consider for other Operator(s).

Permanent, basic standard class walk-up Dedicated fares cannot be created by any operator for a flow where they are the Lead Operator.

Even if the TSA permitted this (which it doesn't ), it looks very much like abuse of a dominant market position.

 

[JonathanH]

I don't want to comment on the rights and wrongs of it, but are these tickets designed to effectively be a 'special offer' to increase uptake of ScotRail's smartcard (and m-tickets, although those weren't mentioned in the Franchise Agreement excerpt)?

A lot of the railway companies seem to have short term sales where the ticket purchases can only be made on their website and are only available as an e-ticket (or m-ticket) - for example the Northern Flash Sales or EMR's recent summer sale.

At what point does a 'special offer' like this become unlawful? Is it when there is no end date for the promotion?

 

[kkong]

If these fares were e-tickets, this problem would be (mostly) avoided; however they aren't; m-tickets are an inferior, temporary product (see threads on the subject) and these ones are tied to a specific app.

These fares definitely are e-Ticket Fares (as defined in the TSA) - you are surely not disputing that?

"e-Ticket Fare" means a Fare that may only be evidenced by an Electronic Ticket.

"Electronic Ticket" means a Ticket stored on a:
(i) smartcard (including an Oyster or ITSO card);
(ii) payment card or identity card;
(iii) mobile telephone or tablet device;
(iv) personal organiser;
(v) other mobile electronic device; or
(vi) database, in conjunction with an authorised Contactless Bank Card

Permanent, basic standard class walk-up Dedicated fares cannot be created by any operator for a flow where they are the Lead Operator.

Even if the TSA permitted this (which it doesn't ), it looks very much like abuse of a dominant market position.

Perhaps ScotRail have created these fares under the provisions outlined in sections 4-15 and 4-25 (1) (e) of the TSA?

If you are interested enough (it would seem you are), perhaps you could raise the FoI request to ask for the history of the decision to create these fares?

Side note: the TSA seems to have an error in it. I think 4-25 (1) should state "paragraphs (a) to (g)", not "paragraphs (a) to (f)".

 

[yorkie]

These fares definitely are e-Ticket Fares (as defined in the TSA) - you are surely not disputing that?

Ok well done you have found another example of where the TSA uses a different definition to the commonly used definition; there are a few of those.

A discussion regarding the different types of smart /electronic/mobile tickets can be found here:

Is it unreasonable for retailers or TOCs such as XC to charge for collecting tickets from machines?

Well various sources say there is, and tell me eTicket is short for electronic ticket, so I remain confused. They are all 'authorities to travel', and can be classified into how they are read, as follows: a) human only readable - 'Edmondson' card tickets were used for over 100 years in the UK...

www.railforums.co.uk

Perhaps ScotRail have created these fares under the provisions outlined in sections 4-15 and 4-25 (1) (e) of the TSA?

But that wouldn't enable them to do what they are doing.

On any case, as I said above, even if the TSA allowed this, it's anticompetitive and an abuse of dominance.

If you are interested enough (it would seem you are), perhaps you could raise the FoI request to ask for the history of the decision to create these fares?

I've not got the time to do that. If a solicitor wants me to assist, then I can make the time, but until then....

My point is that ScotRail aren't allowed to do this and if they want to carry on doing it, it's a risky game they are playing as it could lead to a court case.

Some people were adamant that GTR are allowed to do what they are doing in relation to brand restrictions, and yet that is going to trial next year.

In the other thread it was mentioned that ScotRail rollout of (actual) e-tickets should be "complete" soon; by my definition of complete that would include these tickets.

But if not, and ScotRail persist, the question then becomes whether it is economically viable for a legal case to be pursued. Even if the case is strong, the sums may not make it viable as it would need to be funded. It's just a risk ScotRail may not want to take. But if it happens, it will be interesting to see the outcome. Neither of us can predict that, so I suggest we leave it there.

 

[kkong]

Ok well done you have found another example of where the TSA uses a different definition to the commonly used definition; there are a few of those.

It is you who has asserted that ScotRail are in breach of the TSA.
Accordingly, you cannot pick and choose which parts of the TSA apply; all of it applies.
The reason such contracts contain definitions is to make it explicitly clear what is meant by them.

A discussion regarding the different types of smart /electronic/mobile tickets can be found here:

Is it unreasonable for retailers or TOCs such as XC to charge for collecting tickets from machines?

Well various sources say there is, and tell me eTicket is short for electronic ticket, so I remain confused. They are all 'authorities to travel', and can be classified into how they are read, as follows: a) human only readable - 'Edmondson' card tickets were used for over 100 years in the UK...

www.railforums.co.uk

Yes, I am familiar with the forum members' views on the various types of tickets, fulfilment methods, charges and related matters.

But that wouldn't enable them to do what they are doing.

I ask again: do you know that ScotRail haven't received permission from the Authority to create the Dedicated Fare as per 4-25 (1) (e) of the TSA?

Aside: Can you let me know who you think the "Authority" is for fares created for flows entirely within Scotland and set by a Lead Operator based in Scotland?
The TSA is clear that the "Authority" was originally the SRA as per the Transport Act 2000, but the SRA was abolished by the Railways Act 2005 and there has been myriad further legislation subsequent to that.
May the relevant "Authority" in this case now be the Scottish Ministers?

On any case, as I said above, even if the TSA allowed this, it's anticompetitive and an abuse of dominance.

This is slightly at a tangent to the main point (whether the TSA allows this).
However, the restrictions on these fares are much tighter than the inter-available Off-Peak Day tickets (which exist on all flows which had a new Super Off-Peak Day Return fare created):

• Not valid for departure from Aberdeen, Edinburgh or Glasgow before 1100 or between 1500-2000 on Mondays to Fridays.
• Not valid at all on Saturdays or Sundays
• Not valid on any operator other than ScotRail at any time.

So I'm not sure that they could be considered "abusive".

My point is that ScotRail aren't allowed to do this and if they want to carry on doing it, it's a risky game they are playing as it could lead to a court case.

Please refer to my repeated question above regarding 4-25 (1) (e).

Some people were adamant that GTR are allowed to do what they are doing in relation to brand restrictions, and yet that is going to trial next year.

Yes, that has been rumbling on for years with still no end in sight. And if/when a decision is finally reached by the court, it may be held to be lawful.

In the other thread it was mentioned that ScotRail rollout of (actual) e-tickets should be "complete" soon; by my definition of complete that would include these tickets.

But ScotRail aren't interested in "your definition".
The TSA defines e-Ticket Fares and Electronic Tickets quite clearly, and these Super Off-Peak Day Return fares obviously meet this definition.

But if not, and ScotRail persist, the question then becomes whether it is economically viable for a legal case to be pursued. Even if the case is strong, the sums may not make it viable as it would need to be funded. It's just a risk ScotRail may not want to take. But if it happens, it will be interesting to see the outcome. Neither of us can predict that, so I suggest we leave it there.

How long does it take to send an FoI request to ScotRail to ask them for their assessment of the legality of these fares - 10 minutes?

I am not minded to do so, because, as a ScotRail smartcard holder and resident of Scotland, I am not disadvantaged by these fares existing; quite the opposite.