London Buses Discussion

[Edsmith]

Central London was the obvious area to cut because it has suffered much more in terms of loss of patronage. There are several parts of outer London which need an increase in capacity.

I don't know what the answer is re traffic congestion, bar further legislation to penalise utility companies and their contractors further so fines do actually hurt.

I'm in total agreement re the 59/133/521. It was a terrible mistake to withdraw the 521. In the AM Peak the 59 fills up at Brixton and is already rammed by the time it arrives at Waterloo. Those people who used to wait in two lengthy orderly queues for the 521 don't stand a chance. The 26 is no longer an alternative option either.

I don't think it was a mistake to withdraw the 521 but the 59 wasn't the best route to replace it, loads have dropped considerably at the London Bridge end since City Thameslink opened and since then there's been a drop in commuting and more people are happy to walk nowadays.

 

[Goldfish62]

I don't think it was a mistake to withdraw the 521 but the 59 wasn't the best route to replace it, loads have dropped considerably at the London Bridge end since City Thameslink opened and since then there's been a drop in commuting and more people are happy to walk nowadays.

Maybe at the London Bridge end. Completely different at the Waterloo end from my own recent experience and observations.

Waterloo has always been the busier end of the route.

 

[Leedsbusman]

Perhaps I'm merely picking on Manchester rather easily, but the ensuing scramble for bus routes in the years, if not decades, following deregulation in cities around the UK serves as a reflection on what London could've experienced had it gone down the same path. Hence why I took issue with @Leedsbusman's viewpoint.

It was meant tongue in cheek - the emoji seemed to disappear.

That said not all is good about London’s transport, just as not all is bad about Manchester’s or Leeds’.

Most notably most areas including London are grappling with insufficiency of funding - and not surprisingly service reductions is the result.

TfL report the London bus fleet as having 8,643 buses at 31/2/23 v down from 9616 on 2017 - just over 10% lower for example.

 

[johncrossley]

More buses doesn't necessarily mean more passengers. For example, there was a vast increase in the Greater Manchester bus mileage in the late 80s/early 90s, but that was accompanied by a massive fall in passengers. TfL still run a frequent and comprehensive service in most of London, especially compared with the pre-TfL days. In particular, they continue to offer a frequent service in the evening on most routes. Before TfL and certainly in the 80s, quite a few routes used to run every 30 minutes in the evening, now evening frequency tends to be at least every 20 minutes, often every 15 minutes or even better. Crucially, most routes start early in the morning, even on Sundays, and night buses are still vastly better than they were before TfL.

 

[Wolfie]

More buses doesn't necessarily mean more passengers. For example, there was a vast increase in the Greater Manchester bus mileage in the late 80s/early 90s, but that was accompanied by a massive fall in passengers. TfL still run a frequent and comprehensive service in most of London, especially compared with the pre-TfL days. In particular, they continue to offer a frequent service in the evening on most routes. Before TfL and certainly in the 80s, quite a few routes used to run every 30 minutes in the evening, now evening frequency tends to be at least every 20 minutes, often every 15 minutes or even better. Crucially, most routes start early in the morning, even on Sundays, and night buses are still vastly better than they were before TfL.

The population of London is, of course, much higher now.

 

[johncrossley]

The population of London is, of course, much higher now.

The same could be said for several cities, especially Manchester, but they haven't seen anything like the same increase in service or per capita usage. The main point is that London's buses haven't suddenly turned into a complete mess.

 

[Wolfie]

The same could be said for several cities, especially Manchester, but they haven't seen anything like the same increase in service or per capita usage. The main point is that London's buses haven't suddenly turned into a complete mess.

As a London resident l absolutely agree your last sentence.

 

[Man of Kent]

The same could be said for several cities, especially Manchester, but they haven't seen anything like the same increase in service or per capita usage. The main point is that London's buses haven't suddenly turned into a complete mess.

Readily available DfT statistics (https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...ata-tables#local-bus-passenger-journeys-bus01) only go back to 2009/10, but both areas peaked in 2013/14 and journeys per head have reduced by around one-fifth in both locations to 2019/20.

 

[johncrossley]

only go back to 2009/10

You really need to go back to 2000, preferably earlier. The expansion of evening and night services happened around 2002 to 2005. The most important criteria is the non-car mode share. You would hope that some of the improvements in the rail network have reduced some of the need for buses, particularly for long distances, plus you would hope that the investment in cycling has paid off. You can debate passenger statistics, but there's no argument that evening and night services, in particular, are hugely better than they used to be.

 

[Deerfold]

Readily available DfT statistics (https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...ata-tables#local-bus-passenger-journeys-bus01) only go back to 2009/10, but both areas peaked in 2013/14 and journeys per head have reduced by around one-fifth in both locations to 2019/20.

However most areas were losing passengers 1986-2010. London lost fewer and then saw a large increase 2000-2010.

 

[Busaholic]

Yes, perhaps the 133 is a reasonable alternative for the commuters to and from London Bridge; however the commuters to and from Waterloo are badly affected by the breaking of the 521 link. The diverted 59 from Waterloo, running only as far as Smithfield, doesn't link as far into the City as the 521 did; the 59 doesn't start empty from Waterloo; and since it's a double-decker, it can't use the tunnel from Waterloo Bridge so as to avoid two stops and a congested area, hence providing a slower link.

Also, the fact that the 521 route was designed especially for commuters, and linked to a different mainline station at each end of the loop through the City, meant it had a rare feature for a commuter route - decent loadings in both directions during both rush hours. It made perfect sense.

The 59 diversion loses a proportion of the direct Waterloo-Euston bus service, and loses the only (and previously well-used) direct link from the Kennington Road / Lambeth North area through Bloomsbury [ie north of Holborn station] to Euston. The previous truncation of the 59 at Euston had already removed the only direct public transport link between Waterloo and Kings Cross / St Pancras. (What other pair of such major transport interchanges is there in London with no direct link?)

I know it's "the cuts". But even so, it seems to me that central London has suffered particularly in the last few years (compared to other parts of London), in terms of travel by bus becoming much slower and less convenient.

I made a mistake in my assessment of the 133 diversion, in thinking it terminated at Smithfield: was confusing it in my veteran brain with the 59 end point. Nevertheless, the 133 runs less frequently than the 521 during the peaks, arrives at London Bridge northbound with plenty on board already and there's quite an extra walk to reach it too from London Bridge station platforms.

With this newly rediscovered love of branding on the TfL bus side, it's pertinent to mention that the 521, and 507, were part of the most successful rebrand in post-WW2 London bus history to date, the Red Arrow network, created and executed by people within the Bus Operating Dept with no input sought or obtained from advertising agencies/ image consultants etc. Why does it no longer exist? I suggest its disappearance coincided with B.Johnson's election as Mayor, because the 507 and 521 introduced the 'bendybus' to Central London's streets and we all know what he felt about them despite probably never travelling on one. Those routes were the first to lose them too.

Regarding the speed of buses, the traffic schemes at Aldgate, Elephant and Castle, Bank junction etc and the length of time in their execution showed City Hall's contempt for bus passengers.

 

[Mikey C]

I made a mistake in my assessment of the 133 diversion, in thinking it terminated at Smithfield: was confusing it in my veteran brain with the 59 end point. Nevertheless, the 133 runs less frequently than the 521 during the peaks, arrives at London Bridge northbound with plenty on board already and there's quite an extra walk to reach it too from London Bridge station platforms.

With this newly rediscovered love of branding on the TfL bus side, it's pertinent to mention that the 521, and 507, were part of the most successful rebrand in post-WW2 London bus history to date, the Red Arrow network, created and executed by people within the Bus Operating Dept with no input sought or obtained from advertising agencies/ image consultants etc. Why does it no longer exist? I suggest its disappearance coincided with B.Johnson's election as Mayor, because the 507 and 521 introduced the 'bendybus' to Central London's streets and we all know what he felt about them despite probably never travelling on one. Those routes were the first to lose them too.

Regarding the speed of buses, the traffic schemes at Aldgate, Elephant and Castle, Bank junction etc and the length of time in their execution showed City Hall's contempt for bus passengers.

The demise of the Red Arrows is nothing to do with Boris. Indeed prior to their removal, they were operated with electric single deck buses.

 

[Busaholic]

The demise of the Red Arrows is nothing to do with Boris. Indeed prior to their removal, they were operated with electric single deck buses.

The Red Arrow brand disappeared well before the electric buses. I expect Boris didn't want anything called 'Red' on his watch.

 

[Goldfish62]

The demise of the Red Arrows is nothing to do with Boris. Indeed prior to their removal, they were operated with electric single deck buses.

The Citaros artics removed by Johnson had Red Arrow branding! The replacement Citaro rigid didn't.

The name reappeared on the iBus screens in the BYD electrics and can still be seen on them now they've been transferred to other routes when the screen defaults to "logged off" mode.

 

[jumble]

That’s regulation for you

Regulation does bring huge advantages in TFL Land
No bus driver has ever refused us travel
If bus drivers do not meet TFL standards on behaviour, and timing then TFL will hold the bus company accountable

As a matter of interest can one use a contactless in Leeds on buses and travel on any bus one wants and then have the day's travel capped at £5.25?
Do Hopper fares exist in Leeds that allow travel on buses run by more than one company?

 

[GusB]

Regulation does bring huge advantages in TFL Land
No bus driver has ever refused us travel

I've never been refused travel and I don't live in London.

If bus drivers do not meet TFL standards on behaviour, and timing then TFL will hold the bus company accountable

I'm fairly certain that drivers are held accountable for their actions elsewhere.

As a matter of interest can one use a contactless in Leeds on buses and travel on any bus one wants and then have the day's travel capped at £5.25?
Do Hopper fares exist in Leeds that allow travel on buses run by more than one company?

I'm not sure where you've plucked Leeds from, as I don't recall it being mentioned in this thread recently. There was some talk about Manchester with regard to bus stop information.

If you do wish to find out about ticketing in Leeds, a web search will set you in the right direction and, should you require further assistance, you should start a new thread to prevent dragging this one off-topic.

 

[jumble]

I've never been refused travel and I don't live in London.

Maybe not but the pair in the picture on the left certainly fear this happening if we go outside TFL and there is an hourly bus service and the driver chooses to be a pain
( Actually I recall that we have been refused once in the last 10 years )

I'm fairly certain that drivers are held accountable for their actions elsewhere.

Of course they are but I don't share your confidence that internal accountability is the same
ie if a bus driver fails to stop for a passenger TFL will contact the bus company
Too many times might lead to loss of tender next time round
In a bus company who are short of drivers I am not convinced that the company would take such misbehaviour as seriously

I'm not sure where you've plucked Leeds from, as I don't recall it being mentioned in this thread recently. There was some talk about Manchester with regard to bus stop information.

If you do wish to find out about ticketing in Leeds, a web search will set you in the right direction and, should you require further assistance, you should start a new thread to prevent dragging this one off-topic.

I have no interest in Leeds timetables thanks
I was replying to @Leedsbusman's implied suggestion that regulation is desirable who I guess is very familiar with Leeds

 

[sprunt]

I moved from London to Greater Manchester 6 months ago. If anyone believes that bus services in London aren't superior to those round here in every way, they're living in cloud cuckoo land.

 

[Goldfish62]

I moved from London to Greater Manchester 6 months ago. If anyone believes that bus services in London aren't superior to those round here in every way, they're living in cloud cuckoo land.

Indeed. As a user of both I agree. I just think a lot of people hate all things London and will never admit when something there is demonstrably better there. That's putting aside the argument about whether London has had more than its fair share of money over the years.

 

[Busaholic]

Thinking about the 59/133 'replacements' for the 521 makes me wonder whether someone with a knowledge of London bus route history was responsible for making that arrangement. If your'e travelling by bus from Streatham Hill or Brixton you now have a choice of both those routes to High Holborn, whereas before you had no direct bus. The routes diverge at Kennington, with one going via Kennington Road and the other via Newington Butts. This is the same point where the 109 bus route, and before that the 16/18 tram routes, used to diverge, to go via different Thames bridges and then meet up north of the Thames, but in this case the Victoria Embankment where each route had a notional timing point at Charing Cross Underground Station (renamed Embankment Station in the early 1970s.) There was never an official 'terminus' there as the Met Police from their eyrie at Scotland Yard just along the way wouldn't allow it. Those buses and trams then completed a loop the other way. Then, the bridges used were Westminster and Blackfriars, now it's Waterloo and London. A coincidence? I'd like to think not, but I'm probably deluding myself.

P,S. By the time of tram replacement in 1951, the night buses over some of the tram routes (e.g. the 285 and 286) were, exceptionally, allowed to stand on the north side of the Embankment by Embankment gardens, a facility never allowed the day routes, officially anyway! I believe there was quite short a time limit, though.

 

[londonbridge]

Timetables for SL7 were showing on the London Live Bus Countdown app a couple of days ago but they’ve now been removed.

 

[London Trains]

Timetables for SL7 were showing on the London Live Bus Countdown app a couple of days ago but they’ve now been removed.

They're still there and the timetable is also on TfL's website now.

 

[MotCO]

I've already forgotten what the SL7 is - is it the X26?

 

[PGAT]

I've already forgotten what the SL7 is - is it the X26?

Yes

 

[SECR263]

They're still there and the timetable is also on TfL's website now.

On another timetable matter following SL6 updates in the South Norwood area, I notice that the 196 TT no longer lists many roads southbound with bus stops such as Stanley Halls no longer shown. On the 468 all the intermediate southbound roads have gone apart from Thornton Heath roundabout. Whitgift Centre and Terminal. Crystal Palace football ground is omitted. How is this useful to strangers in the area. I went to Islington and intermediate street on TT's were useful to find Almedia theatre. These are very unhelpful changes but nothing surprises me about Tfl.

 

[Goldfish62]

On another timetable matter following SL6 updates in the South Norwood area, I notice that the 196 TT no longer lists many roads southbound with bus stops such as Stanley Halls no longer shown. On the 468 all the intermediate southbound roads have gone apart from Thornton Heath roundabout. Whitgift Centre and Terminal. Crystal Palace football ground is omitted. How is this useful to strangers in the area. I went to Islington and intermediate street on TT's were useful to find Almedia theatre. These are very unhelpful changes but nothing surprises me about Tfl.

As always seems the case when any organisation changes provider I understand there are mega issues with the new timetable software provided by Trapeze. Not least that the linear route diagram on stop timetables grossly understates estimated journey times! It should be the journey time based on the first trip from the stop after 10:00, but instead it seems to be set to 22:00... Oops!

 

[SECR263]

As always seems the case when any organisation changes provider I understand there are mega issues with the new timetable software provided by Trapeze. Not least that the linear route diagram on stop timetables grossly understates estimated journey times! It should be the journey time based on the first trip from the stop after 10:00, but instead it seems to be set to 22:00... Oops!

Now you mention it no times shown to journies end on the lateral line.

 

[PGAT]

On another timetable matter following SL6 updates in the South Norwood area, I notice that the 196 TT no longer lists many roads southbound with bus stops such as Stanley Halls no longer shown. On the 468 all the intermediate southbound roads have gone apart from Thornton Heath roundabout. Whitgift Centre and Terminal. Crystal Palace football ground is omitted. How is this useful to strangers in the area. I went to Islington and intermediate street on TT's were useful to find Almedia theatre. These are very unhelpful changes but nothing surprises me about Tfl.

It's pretty strange that the Crystal Palace stadium is omitted from the timetable list, but is still important enough to be shown on the SL6 livery

 

[SECR263]

Now you mention it no times shown to journies end on the lateral line.

Apologies- times are shown, but in miniscule typeface.

 

[Goldfish62]

Apologies- times are shown, but in miniscule typeface.

Yes - and no explanation (old style panels state "off-peak journey time in minutes).