GWR short train lengths

[GWVillager]

Looks like plenty of short forms out of the west country this morning. Just what you want on a Friday in August! I suppose the families who probably won't physically be able to board the 0710 PZ to Padd by time it gets to Taunton should count themselves flipping lucky that the train ran at all... seriously, something needs to be done. Its all very well telling Hitachi to step up, but if the parts that where specified were all dirt cheap when building the train, then how realistic is it that Hitachi will ever be able to improve things considerably..... it is time for some new build 9 car sets, no matter the cost. And if that comes out of another DFt budget , then that's what needs to happen. We can't go on like this. Its heart breaking to see.

I sincerely hope that officials at the DfT, Treasury and even Sunak himself hear of this. Hopefully they’ll be more careful when withdrawing fleets with no replacement in future, even if nothing changes at GWR.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I sincerely hope that officials at the DfT, Treasury and even Sunak himself hear of this. Hopefully they’ll be more careful when withdrawing fleets with no replacement in future, even if nothing changes at GWR.

Sunak's reaction would probably be to ask why these passengers didn't hire a helicopter instead...

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I sincerely hope that officials at the DfT, Treasury and even Sunak himself hear of this. Hopefully they’ll be more careful when withdrawing fleets with no replacement in future, even if nothing changes at GWR.

There is a replacement, however there’s separate issues on the collapse in reliability of that fleet - that’s what needs addressing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is a replacement, however there’s separate issues on the collapse in reliability of that fleet - that’s what needs addressing.

Or Hitachi, not DfT, should fund additional sets so they meet their contract for availability on all the IET contracts. Or alternatively the DfT should sue for breach of contract to obtain the funds to do so.

If they were reliable enough the spare sets are from the Bristol "superfasts" not operating.

 

[geordieblue]

Indeed. Shows the priorities of this government are so so wrong. Rich Americans travelling to Edinburgh, over working class families enjoying their one week summer holiday at the beach in Devon.

Again why the need for comparison?

 

[Benjwri]

Indeed. Shows the priorities of this government are so so wrong. Rich Americans travelling to Edinburgh, over working class families enjoying their one week summer holiday at the beach in Devon.

To be fair I highly doubt rich Americans are going to be taking the train, they'll try direct or with a stopover.

 

[Krokodil]

However, we must, of course, remember these trains are nowhere near as profitable at LNER despite higher fares!

The delay compensation claims from people unable to board won't help the profitability. Quite apart from the fact that I believe that trains should be run to benefit the public, rather than purely with regard to cold, hard cash.

The accounting processes e.g., revenue / cost allocation, profitability by TOC grouped routes has a lot to answer for.

Yes, you do wonder of they are comparing like-for-like. GWR incorporates all three passenger sectors so as a whole it will show a lower profit anyway, compared with a purely intercity operator. That they are far more dependant upon diesel traction will add extra costs too (whose fault might that be?).

Again why the need for comparison?

Is passengers being left behind a common occurrence with LNER? If you were the one taking the flack from the passengers, you'd feel like griping too.

 

[Western Sunset]

The delay compensation claims from people unable to board won't help the profitability. Quite apart from the fact that I believe that trains should be run to benefit the public, rather than purely with regard to cold, hard cash.

I wonder what the % of passengers who claim delay repay is? I imagine it's quite high for regular travellers/commuters, but for those less frequent passengers off on their holidays, I'd think the % is much less.

Any figures available, I wonder, as between frequent/infrequent travellers?

 

[irish_rail]

Again why the need for comparison?

Because when was the last time there was a short form on an LNER Scotland service? Quite rightly, the benchmark is set, and so why should GWR not be allowed to meet it ?

 

[3RDGEN]

Because when was the last time there was a short form on an LNER Scotland service? Quite rightly, the benchmark is set, and so why should GWR not be allowed to meet it

East Coast was promised weekday 3tph LNER London to Edinburgh and TPE hourly York/Newcastle to Edinburgh just a few years ago, neither have happened. So it remains 3tph York - Edinburgh vice the 5 promised, sounds a bit short formed to me.

over working class families enjoying their one week summer holiday at the beach in Devon.

More like rich Londoners going to and from their second homes in Devon/Cornwall every weekend, WFH Monday and Friday?

GWR have had 93 new trains just get them in service and use them.

 

[TurboMan]

Looks like plenty of short forms out of the west country this morning. Just what you want on a Friday in August! I suppose the families who probably won't physically be able to board the 0710 PZ to Padd by time it gets to Taunton should count themselves flipping lucky that the train ran at all... seriously, something needs to be done. Its all very well telling Hitachi to step up, but if the parts that where specified were all dirt cheap when building the train, then how realistic is it that Hitachi will ever be able to improve things considerably..... it is time for some new build 9 car sets, no matter the cost. And if that comes out of another DFt budget , then that's what needs to happen. We can't go on like this. Its heart breaking to see.

1A78 (0710 Penzance to Padd) was booked 5 cars from Penzance then 10 cars from Plymouth, but the 5 cars booked to attach at Plymouth (5A78 from Laira) was cancelled due to defective headlights (the driver and signaller were actually both happy for the unit to run to Plymouth with no headlights so the affected cab could be boxed in, but the decision was made instead to send 1A78 on as a 5 car). Defective headlights as the train is about to leave depot isn't quite the same as a unit sitting around for days waiting for parts.

1A78 running 5 vice 10 certainly affected passenger loadings, but the number of people trying to board was also affected by the previous up service from Plymouth (1A77) being cancelled due to the driver shortage as a result of Aslef ASOS. That also meant that 1A78 was given additional calls which didn't help with the overcrowding.

The stock off 1A78 forms 1C82 back to Plymouth, which will obviously be short-formed too, but that's the only other short form on the WofE route today. There are 2 other 5v10 short formed diagrams (and a 9v5!) but these are down to stock being displaced due to ASOS and are on Swansea/Cardiff services.

80x fleet availability is lower than expected recently (there have been a number of units in for damage repair after hitting trees) but any overcrowding problems today are exacerbated by ASOS resulting in cancellations, and aren't as simple as Hitachi not having parts or whatever.

 

[Benjwri]

Because when was the last time there was a short form on an LNER Scotland service? Quite rightly, the benchmark is set, and so why should GWR not be allowed to meet it ?

Right now there are two LNER 9 Car Azumas reported as full and standing. I don’t remember the last time I saw I 9car GWR IET which was truly full and standing (I.e every carriage rather than everyone bunched into one carriage). I haven’t travelled much on LNER, but when I have I’ve seen similar situations to GWR on their 9 cars.

I also fail to see how just shoving the problem onto LNER is doing anything but selfishly helping GWR.

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More like rich Londoners going to and from their second homes in Devon/Cornwall every weekend, WFH Monday and Friday?

Obviously you’ve never traveled on a train to the south west. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone I would describe as a ‘rich Londoner’. It’s a mix of families going on holiday, students travelling to and from university and locals doing short distance journeys.

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GWR have had 93 new trains just get them in service and use them.

GWR are using almost all of them, they have a far higher utilisation than LNER, and they are making use of every train that’s available to them almost every single day. However Hitachi is truly failing in their contract to maintain and provide the trains, and because of the get out clauses the government allowed into the contract GWR is finding it hard to force them.

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So it remains 3tph York - Edinburgh vice the 5 promised, sounds a bit short formed to me.

That isn’t even what short formed means. Plus LNER has the trains for it, as shown by their low utilisation. There are plenty of services the west was promised before Covid and we wouldn’t have the trains to run them even if the government allowed it.

 

[Krokodil]

I wonder what the % of passengers who claim delay repay is? I imagine it's quite high for regular travellers/commuters, but for those less frequent passengers off on their holidays, I'd think the % is much less.

I can't help with figures but I am aware that in certain parts of the UK passengers have taken to using taxis and claiming the cost back from the railway when unable to get on. That'll wipe out quite a few fares worth at a stroke.

 

[irish_rail]

Right now there are two LNER 9 Car Azumas reported as full and standing. I don’t remember the last time I saw I 9car GWR IET which was truly full and standing (I.e every carriage rather than everyone bunched into one carriage). I haven’t travelled much on LNER, but when I have I’ve seen similar situations to GWR on their 9 cars.

I also fail to see how just shoving the problem onto LNER is doing anything but selfishly helping GWR.

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Obviously you’ve never traveled on a train to the south west. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone I would describe as a ‘rich Londoner’. It’s a mix of families going on holiday, students travelling to and from university and locals doing short distance journeys.

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GWR are using almost all of them, they have a far higher utilisation than LNER, and they are making use of every train that’s available to them almost every single day. However Hitachi is truly failing in their contract to maintain and provide the trains, and because of the get out clauses the government allowed into the contract GWR is finding it hard to force them.

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That isn’t even what short formed means. Plus LNER has the trains for it, as shown by their low utilisation. There are plenty of services the west was promised before Covid and we wouldn’t have the trains to run them even if the government allowed it.

I can't add much to that, except the point on 9 cars full and standing (don't forget we can see passenger numbers on the TMS). 1203 off Paddington to Penzance is regularly completely packed out as a 9 car.

 

[GWVillager]

There is a replacement, however there’s separate issues on the collapse in reliability of that fleet - that’s what needs addressing.

No new trains have been procured, so obviously IET utilisation must go up, meaning the reliability issues have affected the service far more than they otherwise would. But that’s besides the point, what I was saying is that these short forms are having a huge impact on the travelling public, so they hopefully will be put off getting rid of small fleets like the IC225s for fear of a similar situation, and understand that their cost cutting has consequences.

 

[irish_rail]

East Coast was promised weekday 3tph LNER London to Edinburgh and TPE hourly York/Newcastle to Edinburgh just a few years ago, neither have happened. So it remains 3tph York - Edinburgh vice the 5 promised, sounds a bit short formed to me.


More like rich Londoners going to and from their second homes in Devon/Cornwall every weekend, WFH Monday and Friday?

GWR have had 93 new trains just get them in service and use them.

The reason East coast hasn't had everything promised is because the passenger figures just don't justify such a large number of trains between York and Edinburgh. The south west is quite the opposite, it has bucked the trend and very much does need all the capacity it can get .

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No new trains have been procured, so obviously IET utilisation must go up, meaning the reliability issues have affected the service far more than they otherwise would. But that’s besides the point, what I was saying is that these short forms are having a huge impact on the travelling public, so they hopefully will be put off getting rid of small fleets like the IC225s for fear of a similar situation, and understand that their cost cutting has consequences.

Things will get really grim when the HSTs go off lease in 2024 and another 5 IETs will be needed for local services. Mind you we may have a new government by then, one less stuck in the past and mired in ideology.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

No new trains have been procured, so obviously IET utilisation must go up, meaning the reliability issues have affected the service far more than they otherwise would. But that’s besides the point, what I was saying is that these short forms are having a huge impact on the travelling public, so they hopefully will be put off getting rid of small fleets like the IC225s for fear of a similar situation, and understand that their cost cutting has consequences.

IET utilisation was temporarily reduced during COVID, the fleet is currently being used within its contracted number with Hitachi.

The IET contract is written in such a way it’s not relevant to the TOC (in this case GWR) how many spare trains there are, they are given a number of trains they can plan for traffic every day.

The best analogy is you want to hire 2 cars, you hire 2 cars from say Europcar, you don’t worry what size pool of cars they have and whether that’s enough for maintenance or not, you just expect your two cars to be provided.

 

[Bluejays]

Looks like plenty of short forms out of the west country this morning. Just what you want on a Friday in August! I suppose the families who probably won't physically be able to board the 0710 PZ to Padd by time it gets to Taunton should count themselves flipping lucky that the train ran at all... seriously, something needs to be done. Its all very well telling Hitachi to step up, but if the parts that where specified were all dirt cheap when building the train, then how realistic is it that Hitachi will ever be able to improve things considerably..... it is time for some new build 9 car sets, no matter the cost. And if that comes out of another DFt budget , then that's what needs to happen. We can't go on like this. Its heart breaking to see.

Very true. Absolutely awful service today. Loads of cancellations, and the ones running seem to be 5 cars

 

[Jrocks]

I can't add much to that, except the point on 9 cars full and standing (don't forget we can see passenger numbers on the TMS). 1203 off Paddington to Penzance is regularly completely packed out as a 9 car.

1C80 was only delayed by 10 mins at Reading today due to passenger loading, surely that speaks volumes. Something needs to be done about these short forms, not only on the WofE but on ALL routes. Last Friday, my platform must have had no less than 700 people waiting for a Pad then Edinburgh train. Needless to say, not everyone fitted on the pad, let alone the 4 car Voyager. Luckily we had another service 30 mins behind for paddington which absorbed the load and everyone for the Cross country were put in the following Cardiff service which then left full and standing, doubtlessly causing issues further up the line from me. I know this thread is about GW, but the extra strain on these services is clearly visable to all colleagues working down this way. The Cardiff services are very well used now along with the mainline services, XC is just as overcrowded as before. It's now getting to the point where people are traveling on GW services hoping for a seat rather than going with the XC lottery. These extra loadings on Cardiff services are no doubt about to cause issues for other stations as if they are leaving Exeter full, then there is no hope for stations towards Bristol. A compromise needs to be found somewhere, however that cannot be at the expense of shortfroming Key leisure travel trains as quite frankly, telling people a train they have booked to be on has no seat reservations and is short is easier said than done, especially if that family has children.

 

[irish_rail]

1C80 was only delayed by 10 mins at Reading today due to passenger loading, surely that speaks volumes. Something needs to be done about these short forms, not only on the WofE but on ALL routes. Last Friday, my platform must have had no less than 700 people waiting for a Pad then Edinburgh train. Needless to say, not everyone fitted on the pad, let alone the 4 car Voyager. Luckily we had another service 30 mins behind for paddington which absorbed the load and everyone for the Cross country were put in the following Cardiff service which then left full and standing, doubtlessly causing issues further up the line from me. I know this thread is about GW, but the extra strain on these services is clearly visable to all colleagues working down this way. The Cardiff services are very well used now along with the mainline services, XC is just as overcrowded as before. It's now getting to the point where people are traveling on GW services hoping for a seat rather than going with the XC lottery. These extra loadings on Cardiff services are no doubt about to cause issues for other stations as if they are leaving Exeter full, then there is no hope for stations towards Bristol. A compromise needs to be found somewhere, however that cannot be at the expense of shortfroming Key leisure travel trains as quite frankly, telling people a train they have booked to be on has no seat reservations and is short is easier said than done, especially if that family has children.

Agree with all of this, though I would say XC is currently much much worse than before the TT change in May when most west country trains became 4 car. I've seen some real horrors in past few weeks, yet my more limited views of any XC starting at Bristol to head north is those trains are pretty empty. Id go back to hourly service, but make them all doubled up, that way you are benefitting the passengers travelling the furthest, not just those who live 2 hours either side of Birmingham. After all its cross country trains not West Midlands railway. Anyway, back to GWR.....

 

[GWVillager]

IET utilisation was temporarily reduced during COVID, the fleet is currently being used within its contracted number with Hitachi.

The IET contract is written in such a way it’s not relevant to the TOC (in this case GWR) how many spare trains there are, they are given a number of trains they can plan for traffic every day.

The best analogy is you want to hire 2 cars, you hire 2 cars from say Europcar, you don’t worry what size pool of cars they have and whether that’s enough for maintenance or not, you just expect your two cars to be provided.

I’m not denying any of this, but the fact of the matter is that Hitachi’s failure to provide enough trains is being exacerbated by the smaller pool of HSTs.

 

[Jrocks]

Agree with all of this, though I would say XC is currently much much worse than before the TT change in May when most west country trains became 4 car. I've seen some real horrors in past few weeks, yet my more limited views of any XC starting at Bristol to head north is those trains are pretty empty. Id go back to hourly service, but make them all doubled up, that way you are benefitting the passengers travelling the furthest, not just those who live 2 hours either side of Birmingham. After all its cross country trains not West Midlands railway. Anyway, back to GWR.....

The horrors are real, we are crying out for help on these XCs in Exeter, especially 1S47 where its booked a 4 and starts in Penzance, with No attachment. Back to GW...

Its not only the long distance stuff that is suffering, its the locals too. I have never seen so many people come off of a 2 car 158 from Barny the other day, it was like a tardis where people just kept on appearing. It doesnt help that the basic diagramming rules and gold trains aren't being followed for the west fleet in general. The 5 x 3car 158s are now allocated to Exeter with the 2 car 158s being allocated to SPM. Yet today the Bristol area have 2 of our 3cars whilst the Barny line struggles on with 2 x 2cars. Once again, I'll reiterate that I understand we need operational flexibility and that our guys in Swindon are doing their best with the local teams working their socks off to keep people moving, but having a key leisure route 2 coaches down on a busy Friday in August really isnt providing people the service that we should be providing them with.

 

[GWVillager]

The 5 x 3car 158s are now allocated to Exeter with the 2 car 158s being allocated to SPM. Yet today the Bristol area have 2 of our 3cars whilst the Barny line struggles on with 2 x 2cars.

I can also assure you that those 158s are definitely needed off Bristol too! There is a severe shortage network wide.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I’m not denying any of this, but the fact of the matter is that Hitachi’s failure to provide enough trains is being exacerbated by the smaller pool of HSTs.

However there’s also the fact the DfT realises they were paying for IETs to sit ‘spare’ whilst also leasing HSTs and decided they no longer wished to do this.

Going back to the hire car analogy, you prepay to hire a car - you the turn up at airport to collect it and they say you can’t have it. Your solution is to take it up with the company, not go out and buy an old banger.

The solution is to take up the issue with Hitachi so they get the target number of sets in traffic everyday rather than retain more HSTs, which isn’t actually possible as many of them have a new lessor.

 

[Master29]

My point is not that GWR has it ‘good’ currently. My issue is with the petty point scoring and comparisons with other franchises which all have their own issues. I have a soft spot for Devon in particular - I have no bone to pick with the south west as a whole - my issue is the whole conversation over ‘X/Y franchise’ which IMO conveniently ignores the fact that problems here are primarily down to the DfT and secondly down to GWR management.

It's not about point scoring though is it. It's about comparisons not being understood. We all know the railways in the UK are feeling a bit of a pinch at the moment. If you had to travel to the west regularly in general you wouldn't call it "point scoring" I assure you.

 

[GWVillager]

Going back to the hire car analogy, you prepay to hire a car - you the turn up at airport to collect it and they say you can’t have it. Your solution is to take it up with the company, not go out and buy an old banger.

Yes - if you hadn't offered a large group of people a lift to a very important business meeting, and then to the cinema afterwards to relax. If that was the case, I wouldn't sell the functioning old banger I had lying around, and instead use it to ensure the friends get their lift.

The key difference to the Europcar analogy is that the railway is a public service, GWR aren't just running trains for their own sake and have passengers who need to travel.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

If that was the case, I wouldn't sell the functioning old banger I had lying around, and instead use it to ensure the friends get their lift.

And here is the point GWR wasn’t given the choice of if it could keep the old banger in reserve by the DfT…

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GWR aren't just running trains for their own sake and have passengers who need to travel.

GWR indeed aren’t running the trains for their own sake, they are running a service using the fleet and cost base as directed by the DfT.

 

[Wychwood93]

Just to compound the misery the 1A78 was PINE at Reading, coded TB (Operators request), having arrived 48 late.

From RTT:

Realtime Trains | 1A78 0710 Penzance to Reading | 04/08/2023

Real-time train running information for 1A78 0710 departure from Penzance to Reading on 04/08/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

That must have gone down well!

 

[GWVillager]

And here is the point GWR wasn’t given the choice of if it could keep the old banger in reserve by the DfT…

GWR indeed aren’t running the trains for their own sake, they are running a service using the fleet and cost base as directed by the DfT.

Yes, this is exactly what I was saying, hence I addressed various Government departments instead of GWR executives. Have we just gone full circle?

 

[geordieblue]

the LNER comparison is ridiculous though. If trains are stripped from LNER and given to GWR there will be short forms on the East Coast instead. It is not a question of either or, it’s a question of the government funding GWR properly - I genuinely don’t understand what ‘but LNER’ is supposed to achieve.

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It's not about point scoring though is it. It's about comparisons not being understood. We all know the railways in the UK are feeling a bit of a pinch at the moment. If you had to travel to the west regularly in general you wouldn't call it "point scoring" I assure you.

It is point scoring if the whole argument is ‘LNER has it better’. Why do conversations about the dire state of TfW not shift to ‘let’s take trains away from TPE?’ Yet on GWR some comparison has to be made to a totally different franchise.