I highly doubt that there are many commuters going from London to Bath, travelling frequently on these trains myself I would say it is much more holiday makers, tourists and locals, which after all is their main intention.
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GWR short train lengths
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GWVillager
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It was a throwaway suggestion, but what I was meaning to say is that on certain routes (especially Hereford and Cheltenham, to a much lesser extent South Wales) Reading passengers still do massively increase crowding. Therefore, would it not be a better idea to take the 9 coach sets often allocated to these services and put them on the struggling WofE line and run them instead as 5 coach trains, but 10 between London and Reading?
Again, this is obviously a bad ‘solution’, but new stock is highly unlikely in the foreseeable future, so it’s a question of best utilising existing stock.
How are you envisaging the logistics working on this? A 5 car heads West
and the other 5 car goes where?
I’m also not sure about capacity at Reading. You’re looking at trains every 10ish minutes through each platform (some a little more, some a little less), thats not enough time to split or join an IET and get it out the way.
irish_rail
On Moderation
I have to agree. The GWR definitely feels the poor relation compared with the ECML and WCML, yet serves similar sized cities and similar distances. I must admit whenever I drive the Bristol line it is a little sobering quite how often we are stopping. I'm not sure the Bristol superfasts are a good idea either, always felt more of a vanity project, but I would make one of the two Bristol per hour not have to stop at Didcot and Chippenham just to give the feel of a slightly quicker journey. And my feelings on OOC international are its an utter waste of time for GWR services, though understand the planners insist its nothing or everything having to stop there. For me itd be nothing, but by all accounts it will be everything. Still at least Brummys will soon be able to get to London even faster than at present......
Snow1964
Established Member
Without wanting to sound speculative (so I have put my main thoughts in class 379 speculation thread), I think we are going to get a political fudge because current problems are unsustainable for medium term.
I think GTR will get full 30 units rather than the minimum 21 in their 2023-24 Business Commitments. A few 387s will transfer to GWR. Didcot -Oxford will get electrification and become 387, and IETs released from Oxford will sort out the GWR growth problem.
Not a perfect solution, but quickest and cheapest easy fix to make problems of overcrowding be less visible to the public for few years. Reading might well end up being skipped peak hours (much like some trains do Clapham Jct and Woking on SW) to force the commuters onto 12car EMUs rather than long distance services.
I think GTR will get full 30 units rather than the minimum 21 in their 2023-24 Business Commitments. A few 387s will transfer to GWR. Didcot -Oxford will get electrification and become 387, and IETs released from Oxford will sort out the GWR growth problem.
Not a perfect solution, but quickest and cheapest easy fix to make problems of overcrowding be less visible to the public for few years. Reading might well end up being skipped peak hours (much like some trains do Clapham Jct and Woking on SW) to force the commuters onto 12car EMUs rather than long distance services.
Sir Felix Pole
Established Member
I think there is a case for running the principal Cornish services non-stop through Reading given the booming traffic levels and allowing passengers facing a 5hr journey the chance of a seat out of Paddington. The current pick-up only arrangement at Reading on certain services is not enforceable. An enhanced Exeter semi-fast service should cater for the intermediate stations including Reading. When OOC opens, the RailAir coach from Reading to Heathrow will become largely redundant.
Would be great to see some common sense like this, you never know if Reading was skipped WoE may even see the lower advance fares (to grow total revenue and EBITA) that are commonplace on WCML/ ECML.
CC 72100
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Didcot is already getting skipped on certain Bristol trains now, can't remember whether it was in both directions mind.
It's all very well and good saying about how far trains travel on other mainlines before stopping, but with Bristol only 118 miles from London, its in a different category to the ECML and WCML.
A bit of timescale tightening and slick platform work would see London - Bristol in 90 minutes even with a calling pattern as per now, so I'm not sure how much would be gained by skipping the Didcots or Chippenhams of this world. There is also the fact that not everybody wants to travel to/from London; I'm not sure Swindon - Chippenham - Bath - Bristol 'local' passengers would be impressed with dropping to 1tph.
Doctor Fegg
Established Member
You think? I find the Reading–London stretch generally tolerable on the trains coming off the Cotswold Line. Crowding between Slough and London was a much bigger problem, but fortunately the Cotswold IETs no longer stop at Slough.
Snow1964
Established Member
I don't think many passengers would consider that as an acceptable standard, even if you do
GWVillager
Member
The other 5 car would be coupled with an arriving 5 car. Obviously you’d need bi-directional running. Please don’t think I am genuinely advocating for this to be the way forward, it was merely a suggestion for one way to alleviate some of the problems.
Well yes, Oxford’s the main problem with Cotswold trains, but Reading does also see a lot in the peak.
It was originally in both directions, but then there was I believe significant political pressure and a very last minute change had to be made, with stops added back in towards London, however unfortunately that wasn’t possible in the other direction. There is pretty much no justification for doing it, some of the trains that stop at Didcot do Bristol to London faster than those that don’t.
And your second point is absolutely correct, 1tph is a significant and annoying service drop, especially when GWR aren’t great about adding stops in disruption. I’ve had to wait an hour at Didcot because a train was cancelled, with a perfectly fine Bristol train wizzing through.
I don’t see how cutting trains for the sake of the journey ‘feeling fast’, when it saves a few minutes, if any, is productive. There are significant flows from all the stations the IETs stop at, and cutting them is just decreasing passenger experience hugely.
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Except Reading is also a huge producer of traffic. If we skip Reading on WoE trains what are those who live there meant to do to get to Cornwall? Shell out an extra £50 to travel to London and back?
GWR doesn’t offer advance fares on Reading to London tickets (And most surrounding areas), so the only way you would get better advance fares is from less people from Reading being able to travel which kind of defeats the point.
It’s almost worrying how many people think an acceptable response is to just cut more and more stations in an extremely London centric manner. If we’re doing that can we start cutting London from some trains? That would also reduce overcrowding.
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It depends. Cutting timings from 62 minutes to 59 minutes make the journey seem a lot faster to a passenger - "over an hour" vs "less than an hour", in the same way that £9.99 sounds a lot less than £10.00 even though they are as good as the same.
Cutting 75 minutes to 72 on the other hand won't be noticed by passengers as it doesn't cross a memorable threshold.
I don't think there are any 125mph stretches in the UK that aren't under wires anyway. They struggle on climbs anywhere it seems.
HamworthyGoods
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There’s some 125mph stretches between Derby and Birmingham.
Indeed , you're right. I should have been more specific. What I meant was 125mph non wired areas used by IET's.
End of wires on the GWML to Bathampton Jn is 125 and not wired, and used by IETs.
Replacing Castle class HSTs
geordieblue
Member
West Yorkshire - 2.5 million
Tyne and Wear - 1 million
Edinburgh - 0.5 million
North Yorkshire - 0.8 million
Extensions further into Scotland, to Lincoln and Cleethorpes etc increase LNER’s catchment further beyond this baseline of just under 5 million.
Whereas the entire catchment of Devon and Cornwall is 1.5 million - Greater Bristol about 600k - South Wales also about 1.5 million - Oxford maybe another 500k. For these services GWR have 90ish IETs and 30ish 387s; LNER have 75ish IETs and a small number of Class 91s which are predicted to be withdrawn relatively soon.
The stock pool available to LNER is thus smaller even though the destinations it serves have higher catchments - I am struggling to see, firstly, how the markets served are similarly sized, and secondly, how GWR resembles a poor relation.
But yes that OOC stop is going to be really annoying when it happens. I guess the theory is changing there will be faster than taking an XC to Birmingham but personally I'd rather stay sat on one train. Different story if phase 2a/b was a thing and one was traveling beyond Birmingham, but that's 2040s...
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The resident population of Devon and Cornwall is 1.7 million but 11 million people visit every year
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geordieblue
Member
In North Yorkshire, York alone receives 8.5 million visitors a year.
Unfair comparison as GWR have a higher proportion of 5 car units.
Putting GWR and LNER against each other is a fairly pointless exercise as they are pretty different TOCs.
To be fair Bath receives 6 million a year.
Falcon1200
Established Member
Long distance WCML service also have multiple stops, albeit a bit further from London; The majority of the Glasgow Central/Euston trains, for example, stop at Lancaster, Preston, Wigan and Warrington, in less than 50 minutes running time.
At the expense of disadvantaging Oxford line passengers who change at Didcot; The Swansea trains already miss Didcot, meaning two changes are required, don't make it even harder to Go West!
geordieblue
Member
Yes it does, I suppose my point was that both ECML and GWR receive a significant proportion of tourist traffic - it’s not exclusive to one or other line (Edinburgh for example being a major tourist draw)
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I agree - it is in many ways pointless to compare - but it is frustrating hearing particular members complaining about a supposed raw deal by explicitly comparing ECML and GWR. I was attempting to fight the EMCL’s corner - (and incidentally the point remains that GWR does have more stock and a short form is better than a cancellation.)
Not just Oxford passengers, also those who live between Didcot and Reading, such as myself, meaning you have to go via Reading which is vastly more expense as it allows break of journey at Reading.
Sat? On an XC service? How on earth to you manage to escape the vestibule where everyone else is stood?
Though LNER services are supplemented by other operators to a greater degree than GWR. Even if one of those operators is the hapless TPE.
In reality the service across the UK generally falls short of where it should be, with a few notable exceptions.
No need to worry. We all know that Reading won’t be skipped in reality.
I was highlighting that the only way we’ll ever see better value and higher volume of advance fares from Paddington would be if Reading was skipped.
Typically available leisure fares London Paddington to Devon/Cornwall/Wales are higher than ECML/WCML equivalents and yet GWML is ‘less profitable’. One reason being that the longer distance demand is suppressed to allow space for Reading - London seasons or off-peaks at £24 return. There’s no equivalent on the other mainline routes.
Using the same seat at £40 from somewhere further west increases revenue (often it’s standing room only east of Reading in any case). Unfortunately, there’s no capacity to allow this to happen.
irish_rail
On Moderation
Oh right in that case you'll be happy to swap some GWR 5 cars for some ECML 9 cars, say 2 5s for one 9? That way ECML can have more stock and make do with the shortforms and not GWR. GwR intercity is very comparable to LNER intercity in terms of populations and tourist markets.
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Indeed. I think for Western region intercity passengers it will prove very much a white elephant.
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But take out Chippenham you save about 6 minutes as most trains are stood there for 3 or 4 minutes. Didcot, again you save over 5 minutes, as always a slow approach on the up into Didcot due to the insistence that the platform end signal is at red and ATP and TPWS won't allow anything other than the slowest approach most of the time. So replace Didcot with green signals , and no station stop, and combined with losing Chippenham I reckon you are looking at over 10 minutes shaved off journey time.
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Far too many people from the south west change at Reading for onward journies, like to Oxford and Gatwick. Pick up set down only on the other hand might work, even if the odd numpty ignored it.
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It's much the same as the the super fasts though, yes it's faster but that doesn't actually attract that many customers over a few minuted benefit, yet you're getting rid of a large amount of passengers by not stopping at their station. You're making anyone between Oxford and Didcot travel to Reading, increasing their journey times by 30 minutes plus and making them a significant extra cost, solely to benefit people from London by a few minutes, 10 at most.
At chippenham you're cutting their entire train service to hourly, despite having annual passenger levels of a million. If anything Chippenham is underserved already.
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