GWR short train lengths

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Indeed. Shows the priorities of this government are so so wrong. Rich Americans travelling to Edinburgh, over working class families enjoying their one week summer holiday at the beach in Devon.

Sorry, who on earth has suggested anything about Americans, and what does being working class have to do with the price of fish?

 

[Krokodil]

It is point scoring if the whole argument is ‘LNER has it better’. Why do conversations about the dire state of TfW not shift to ‘let’s take trains away from TPE?’ Yet on GWR some comparison has to be made to a totally different franchise.

Probably because TPE is in an even more dire state. Though some on here think that TfW would make better use of the Mk5 sets...

 

[jayah]

Indeed. Similar antics regularly performed daily at Laira to keep the trains in service. Oh well progress eh.

Negative ergonomics are often beneficial. What is the cancellation rate for services run by Class 390s, 345s, 700s due to rolling stock? Very little I will suggest.

As soon as your offer the possibility to halve the train length, or shunt out a vehicle and turn it into the depot Christmas Tree, that is exactly what will happen.

 

[irish_rail]

Sorry, who on earth has suggested anything about Americans, and what does being working class have to do with the price of fish?

Based on my own personal sightings today of working class families waiting on platforms for a train i knew they wouldn't be able to board. OK I don't actually know what career the parents have, so I make an assumption. I frankly felt emotional, and genuinely sorry for them, especially the kids. As a youngster I loved travelling on the train for holidays, indeed it was a part of the holiday. And yet looking on at them, knowing they were about to face at best being crammed for 2 hours into a train toilet, I felt genuinely upset. Maybe I'm going soft in my old age.
Meanwhile, my experience of East coast trains to Scotland (admittedly limited) is American tourists. Probably wrong, but I do feel priorities right now need reassessing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Aug 2023 ==

Negative ergonomics are often beneficial. What is the cancellation rate for services run by Class 390s, 345s, 700s due to rolling stock? Very little I will suggest.

As soon as your offer the possibility to halve the train length, or shunt out a vehicle and turn it into the depot Christmas Tree, that is exactly what will happen.

Exactly. And thats why the 5 car IET fleet is so problematic. Sure we need a handful of them, but 58!!!???? Its a licence to short form for Hitachi.

 

[Benjwri]

Its a licence to short form for Hitachi.

Hitachi get paid by the half set, what are you expecting them to do? Just send nothing at all?

 

[irish_rail]

Hitachi get paid by the half set, what are you expecting them to do? Just send nothing at all?

Your missing my point. Of course the controller on the day has their hands tied and will inevitably send out a 5 vice 10 . But if we could rid ourselves of some 5s and replace them with 9s then frankly Hitachi may be forced to up reliability to avoid a cancellation. Might help focus minds. Not to mention a 9 car is surely more reliable than 2 separate 5 car sets working as a pair!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Based on my own personal sightings today of working class families waiting on platforms for a train i knew they wouldn't be able to board. OK I don't actually know what career the parents have, so I make an assumption. I frankly felt emotional, and genuinely sorry for them, especially the kids. As a youngster I loved travelling on the train for holidays, indeed it was a part of the holiday. And yet looking on at them, knowing they were about to face at best being crammed for 2 hours into a train toilet, I felt genuinely upset. Maybe I'm going soft in my old age.

But what does that have to do with the HST withdrawal? The train being full cannot be helped unless you put on more coaches, and some might say more than 4/5 is overkill for these Regional routes.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Your missing my point. Of course the controller on the day has their hands tied and will inevitably send out a 5 vice 10 . But if we could rid ourselves of some 5s and replace them with 9s then frankly Hitachi may be forced to up reliability to avoid a cancellation. Might help focus minds. Not to mention a 9 car is surely more reliable than 2 separate 5 car sets working as a pair!

You are overlooking that Hitachi is measured (and penalised accordingly) by the number of half sets it delivers relative to the plan each day - a half set being a 5 car (a 9 car / 10 car being two half sets), as opposed to whether the non delivery of the right number of half sets each day brings a cancellation or a short form.

The shuffling around of the half sets that Hitachi actually deliver is down to GWR Control as like the west fleet a TOC will generally try and short-form a train before they cancel services.

 

[Xavi]

the LNER comparison is ridiculous though

A bit of a misunderstanding perhaps..

Leisure is booming on LNER and GWR (particularly Devon / Cornwall). LNER fleet is coping okay, GWR is very stretched.

Everyone wants LNER to keep its full fleet - no point in robbing Peter to pay Paul. Though it would be refreshing for there to be some acknowledgement from DfT that there is considerable business (revenue) to be had in other parts of the country that’s at risk of being driven away if fleet issues aren’t resolved.

It’s frustrating for passengers and employees, GWR (and XC in the region) has major issues e.g., long-distance passengers being left on platforms when a full service is operating and it’s going to get worse. Yet DfT has no interest whatsoever, just more cuts please.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Aug 2023 ==

some might say more than 4/5 is overkill for these Regional routes

They’d be wrong.

 

[irish_rail]

But what does that have to do with the HST withdrawal? The train being full cannot be helped unless you put on more coaches, and some might say more than 4/5 is overkill for these Regional routes.

I'm referring to the 0710 Penzance to Paddington. Nothing to do with regional services, its a long distance intercity train booked for 10 coaches. The passengers I refer to where intending travel toward Reading or London.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Aug 2023 ==

You are overlooking that Hitachi is measured (and penalised accordingly) by the number of half sets it delivers relative to the plan each day - a half set being a 5 car (a 9 car / 10 car being two half sets), as opposed to whether the non delivery of the right number of half sets each day brings a cancellation or a short form.

The shuffling around of the half sets that Hitachi actually deliver is down to GWR Control as like the west fleet a TOC will generally try and short-form a train before they cancel services.

All sounds a bit like a strategy game to me. Sadly, real people are having trips and holidays ruined by this, and frankly its the Dft to blame. They need to authorise some new stock to be built, before its too late and the production line is closed. Sadly if Rishi clings on until Jan 2025 as is rumoured, by time the various disputes get resolved and transport gets its house in order, it may be too late. Whats needed is local MPs to grow a pair and demand the government stop playing at ideology and put some investment into the parts of the network that actually need it.

 

[Energy]

They need to authorise some new stock to be built,

That wouldn't solve the issues. If Hitachi are failing to maintain ~90 trains they will struggle even more to maintain extra. Enough IETs are spare for maintenance, Hitachi need to up their game.

While I'd support shifting some 5 car units to TPE or XC and lengthening many of the others to 9 right now it wouldn't make it worse as you'd end up with the entire train cancelled rather than short formed.

 

[GWVillager]

But what does that have to do with the HST withdrawal? The train being full cannot be helped unless you put on more coaches, and some might say more than 4/5 is overkill for these Regional routes.

If passengers are being left behind on the platform by 5 coach trains then obviously more than that is not overkill. It’s affected by HST withdrawal as the situation is so desperate that every set available is crucial, and even taking a few 5 cars away to run ex-HST services will lead to severe overcrowding given the reliability issues.

I don’t quite see the discussion here, it’s not a matter of blaming anyone or finding who’s at fault, Hitachi or otherwise, it’s about recognising that there aren’t enough trains in service and that withdrawing a fleet amidst this is not a good idea. This is one thing @Irish Rail reminds us of, at the heart of this are people just trying to get around, they don’t care why this is happening, they just want a seat, and proposals to provide them should be considered.

 

[Energy]

If passengers are being left behind on the platform by 5 coach trains then obviously more than that is not overkill. It’s affected by HST withdrawal as the situation is so desperate that every set available is crucial, and even taking a few 5 cars away to run ex-HST services will lead to severe overcrowding given the reliability issues.

I don’t quite see the discussion here, it’s not a matter of blaming anyone or finding who’s at fault, Hitachi or otherwise, it’s about recognising that there aren’t enough trains in service and that withdrawing a fleet amidst this is not a good idea.

Part of the HST withdrawals is shifting major 802 maintenance south west, being able to do engine swaps there instead of having to do them at North Pole will help.

 

[GWVillager]

Part of the HST withdrawals is shifting major 802 maintenance south west, being able to do engine swaps there instead of having to do them at North Pole will help.

That’s great - I didn’t know - but should be done before the HSTs are withdrawn or there will be a painful period in between.

 

[Krokodil]

That wouldn't solve the issues. If Hitachi are failing to maintain ~90 trains they will struggle even more to maintain extra. Enough IETs are spare for maintenance, Hitachi need to up their game.

Only if you tried to do it with the existing resources. Isn't Laira supposed to be taking on some Hitachi work?

What really doesn't help is that depots originally designed for servicing a mostly electric fleet now have a load of diesel engines to deal with. Diesels need more down time, which lowers productivity. Another consequence of Grayling's decisions.

 

[mikeb42]

What a sad sight of enfeeblement Paddington's train shed is this evening. Mostly empty space with only silly little joke half trains poking a short distance from the buffers. An insult to IK Brunel and his ilk.

The 5 coach farrago has been the last straw for me and colleagues. Apart from during the pandemic I don't think I've gone more than 2 weeks without using a train from the west to Paddington in at least 20 years. I've driven every time for about 6 weeks now until today. It's as quick or quicker, cheaper including the hidden costs given that we can't really work much on the train, and inordinately less infuriating. I've not been late once, jammed into anything except the tube, had to deal with the endless supply of narcissistic morons that now seem to pollute every service, none of it. Between us that's maybe 10k a month of extra car miles on the roads, £ks of lost revenue to the railway and the smug and supremely arrogant S Khan would not be delighted at the extra vehicles coming into outer parts of London. Still, stuff the environment eh*? There's only so much of the recent GWR experience you can take at great expense before deciding enough is enough.

*For the record I think it is exceedingly stupid for a situation to be created where road travel that runs parallel to 100+ miles of a supposedly high speed and important railway is preferable, but it is what it is.

I feel sorry for those that don't have the choice to say - stuff this.

 

[Energy]

That’s great - I didn’t know - but should be done before the HSTs are withdrawn or there will be a painful period in between.

The HST maintenance needs to be out of Laira before more 802 maintenance can move in. Cardiff and Exeter are fairly full as well.

What really doesn't help is that depots originally designed for servicing a mostly electric fleet now have a load of diesel engines to deal with. Diesels need more down time, which lowers productivity. Another consequence of Grayling's decisions.

Its a train supply agreement, Hitachi should have factored the extra depot work in to the variation of contract when the 21 9 car 801s were changed to 800s.

To be clear, I obviously believe that the 5 car short forms should not be happening, but I don't think lengthening to 9 cars is the solution for right now.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Or Hitachi, not DfT, should fund additional sets so they meet their contract for availability on all the IET contracts. Or alternatively the DfT should sue for breach of contract to obtain the funds to do so.

If they were reliable enough the spare sets are from the Bristol "superfasts" not operating.

There is no breach of contract. Hitachi are contracted to supply a number of sets. But if one gets bent when it is in GWR’s hands and is unavailable the following day, Hitachi are entitled to supply one less. It’s called an “Excused Set” in the contract. The more that get bent and stay bent, the less they have to supply. They have to repair them in a timely manner but some units need more than a day or two to fix.

The Bristol superfasts sets don’t actually give you that much because they were nearly all off peak workings and mainly relied on units being split off from other services to run them. So GWR has had to reduce some planned formations to free up units but none from the West of England services.

This week the shortfall has been caused by the odd failure and the industrial action. The latter has also resulted in IET units being in the wrong place for start of service so you are constantly fighting imbalances. To an extent, the DMU fleet has suffered the same this week but pure driver shortages (as a result of the ASOS) have made more of a mess of those West services, especially on the Cornish branches.

 

[Xavi]

So GWR has had to reduce some planned formations to free up units but none from the West of England services.

This week the shortfall has been caused by the odd failure and the industrial action.

The plan isn’t always working and, whilst undoubtedly exacerbated by industrial action, it’s the same DfT (or rather Treasury) not interested in solving that problem.

To hypothesise, in a post-strike era, the Hopwood 150s and 158s from TfW are the common sense solution.

 

[Xavi]

A bit off topic, though as I’m sure every contributor acknowledges, Hopwood oozes value, quality and common sense as his beyond 15x, 16x electrify Oxford, Bristol, Clink Road, Newton Abbot to Plymouth proposals, and (off the mainline) the Crediton to Colebrook crossovers demonstrate.

 

[dk1]

maybe the 150s are getting too old? 219 is really squeaky

Nothing wrong with them that a can of WD40 won’t resolve.

 

[REVUpminster]

Paignton-Exmouth 5/7 2 car trains including 165137, 165130 with all the unwanted bicycle space and an unsuitable doorwise 158767.
Barnstaple ok with two 3 car turbos and the usual 158 but first train cancelled.

 

[Grecian 1998]

I did notice the three Bristol - Weymouth trains at 0803, 0908 and 1003 this morning were 3 coaches, 2 coaches and 3 coaches respectively accordingly to RTT. Then again, whilst it is a Saturday in August, given the weather this may be an inspired rather than an insufficient stock allocation.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Are the PZ Ponsandane Sdgs expansion for 9 cars still on course? I went past last week (by road) and work seems to have stopped with track only partially laid.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Are the PZ Ponsandane Sdgs expansion for 9 cars still on course? I went past last week (by road) and work seems to have stopped with track only partially laid.

Shortage of S&T resources has put the project back (up to a year, according to well placed sources).

Ponsandane is the only place to get decent stabling capacity in the west to enable more 9 car working through to Penzance. Depot capacity is tight nearly everywhere else that an IET set currently goes.

The IET sets only have 36 hours max between servicing intervals so you have to plan their depot visits carefully. You have to stick to the maintenance requirements in the contract, which specify how many of which set must be presented at each depot within a 24 hour period for three types of “maintenance interval” and there is also a concurrence requirement which means a certain amount of those types of unit must be under those exams at the same time. STP tends to make a mess of all this, which gives Hitachi a get out for the following day.

Hitachi, in spite of the DSD pedal issue, are not generally running short of parts. There is an issue with them dealing with repairs arising but the “excused sets” are currently giving them cover for that under the contract. There is no hook in the contract to force Hitachi to give you more sets if they get bent when they are being operated by you. It’s not their fault they got bent.

The IET sets are an expensive way of providing a regional service and I can see these units being used on GWR IC services when replacements become available. The TFW 158 units are on GWR’s radar but, longer term, the same type of new unit (2+2 with tables, around 400 seats) could be procured for both Cardiff-Pompey and Cardiff-Penzance.

That was what was in the Direct Award bid teams mind for DA3 (together with 14 802 units going from 5 to 9) but the DfT did not want to order new stock at that time.

 

[Xavi]

3-car 165 on Exmouth - Paignton excellent refurbishment on the inside but failed in service this morning. Well done GWR for replacing with 2-car 150 at Exeter and minimal disruption, though crush loaded on departure.

Extra 150 / 158 from TfW to ease maintenance burden can’t come soon enough. Operation Churchward needs to go ahead too.

 

[Benjwri]

every passenger should be entitled to a full refund or a voucher to the same value.

You’re entitled to 50% off if there are no free seats and you have a reservation on GWR, that’s some of the way, it just isn’t well publicised.

 

[uglymonkey]

Wonder why!

 

[MasterPhillips]

Not sure what “the Tories” have got to do with the ridiculous number of short forms we see almost every day. As far as I’m aware it was GWR who proposed the splitting of trains at Plymouth in the original IET timetable which has left us with too many 5 car sets and not enough 9s. Also it was the Civil Servants at the DfT who agreed the now seemingly bad contract with Hitachi which sees them get away with not providing enough trains.

 

[Clarence Yard]

As I have said many times, it was either the choice of long sets for the south west and no Cornish half hourly service (possibly for ever) or 5 cars and the Cornish half hourly, with the possibility that you could extend to 9 when the passenger revenue justified it. The latter was chosen.

There was no way you could have got both 9 cars and the Cornish half hourly authorised at the same time - the money and the (all year round) passenger numbers didn’t justify it. I tried to do it but it just didn’t work.