Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[jfowkes]

You only need to listen to passengers constant moans about where is the trolley etc to realise they are only popular when they turn up quickly, and have a good range. But almost always it seems a request is made, and the answer is always , no sorry we are out of xyz. For a coffee or tea, I get the advantage of a trolley, but for anything more it just doesn't work well, and even for a coffee, its not exactly great when you have to wait 2 hours to get it.

I've always presumed you can just go and find the trolley if you want something right now? You don't have to wait for it to arrive at your seat.

 

[dan4291]

Yes, there is.

RA signalling for starters.

If they are using the same CCTV system as the rest of the 800s it won't be fit for DOO anyway.

CD/RA signalling isn't needed, and the 80x CCTV is fine for driver-controlled operation (not DOO, which is the driver being the only member of staff on the entire train, which will not be the case with the 810s), as long as the cameras are clean!

 

[bluelagoon8951]

I've always presumed you can just go and find the trolley if you want something right now? You don't have to wait for it to arrive at your seat.

yes, at least with me if a passenger comes up to me i will happily serve them anything that isn't a hot drink (we *have* to serve these at seat, or in a paper bag from the buffet bar).

 

[occone]

yes, at least with me if a passenger comes up to me i will happily serve them anything that isn't a hot drink (we *have* to serve these at seat, or in a paper bag from the buffet bar).

It's good to know. My instinct was it would be rude to interrupt the flow (of course waiting for you to finish serving someone before jumping in).

The other difficult factor is having no idea exactly where the trolley is, and traipsing down multiple carriages to find you've got the wrong end is not fun.

Which, in a rare defence of XC, something they do occasionally, but only when the train is physically too busy to push a trolley through, is a "static service". Translation: "I'm in coach F with all the snacks, good luck if you are able to fight, climb, beg, barter, or outsource your way here. May the odds be forever in your favour".

 

[jhy44]

yes, at least with me if a passenger comes up to me i will happily serve them anything that isn't a hot drink (we *have* to serve these at seat, or in a paper bag from the buffet bar).

Which is madness and meant I couldn't get a hot drink on a 5.5 hour GWR journey from Truro to Paddington because the trolley never made it to me. I'm an adult, I can carry my hot drink up and down the train to and from other seats or the toilet after being served; I can also carry it from a trolley back to my seat. Deranged that a TOC would rather prioritise completely ludicrous health & safety recommendations that adults are not allowed to carry hot drinks even if it means passengers cannot access refreshments. Honestly puts me off getting the train between Cornwall and London again given that Truro station often has nowhere to buy a drink from before boarding the train, better to fly; I can get always get a coffee at the airport and on a plane! The train seems to no longer be able to offer that.

 

[jfowkes]

yes, at least with me if a passenger comes up to me i will happily serve them anything that isn't a hot drink (we *have* to serve these at seat, or in a paper bag from the buffet bar).

That's ok, I can sit down for a minute while I order my hot drink.

 

[Scott1]

Which is madness and meant I couldn't get a hot drink on a 5.5 hour GWR journey from Truro to Paddington because the trolley never made it to me. I'm an adult, I can carry my hot drink up and down the train to and from other seats or the toilet after being served; I can also carry it from a trolley back to my seat. Deranged that a TOC would rather prioritise completely ludicrous health & safety recommendations that adults are not allowed to carry hot drinks even if it means passengers cannot access refreshments. Honestly puts me off getting the train between Cornwall and London again given that Truro station often has nowhere to buy a drink from before boarding the train, better to fly; I can get always get a coffee at the airport and on a plane! The train seems to no longer be able to offer that.

That was brought in at pretty much all TOCs after a number of nasty accidents involving people spilling their hot drinks over passengers sat down as they walked past them. Usually because of the train going over pointwork and lurching to the side, unbalancing the passenger.

The paper bag gives enough time for someone to throw the drink off them without getting burns, at least in theory, and makes it harder to drop because of the handle.

 

[Killingworth]

That was brought in at pretty much all TOCs after a number of nasty accidents involving people spilling their hot drinks over passengers sat down as they walked past them. Usually because of the train going over pointwork and lurching to the side, unbalancing the passenger.

The paper bag gives enough time for someone to throw the drink off them without getting burns, at least in theory, and makes it harder to drop because of the handle.

Put some paper bags on the trolley?

 

[Scott1]

Put some paper bags on the trolley?

Certainly the approach at my TOC.

 

[TreacleMiller]

CD/RA signalling isn't needed, and the 80x CCTV is fine for driver-controlled operation (not DOO, which is the driver being the only member of staff on the entire train, which will not be the case with the 810s), as long as the cameras are clean!

They are the same system as the 800s and I can assure you they are not suitable for either DOO or station duties. The resolution on them is shocking and they glitch constantly - they also dirty up alarming quick especially on the facing side of the train.

 

[800001]

CD/RA signalling isn't needed, and the 80x CCTV is fine for driver-controlled operation (not DOO, which is the driver being the only member of staff on the entire train, which will not be the case with the 810s), as long as the cameras are clean!

Don’t GWR Use the cameras for DOO on Oxford service?

 

[Benjwri]

Don’t GWR Use the cameras for DOO on Oxford service?

Yes

 

[800001]

Yes

So they must be suitable for use then?

 

[TreacleMiller]

So they must be suitable for use then?

Aslef will disagree with you.

The difference in quality between "our" systems and those used on other stock is massive.

 

[800001]

Aslef will disagree with you.

The difference in quality between "our" systems and those used on other stock is massive.

If they disagree that much I’m surprised they allow the cameras to be used?

Surely they have to be of a certain standard?

 

[TreacleMiller]

If they disagree that much I’m surprised they allow the cameras to be used?

Surely they have to be of a certain standard?

Put it this way.

On the 5 units I drove tonight, 2 had CCTV faults. The rest were so degraded you couldn't see much platform side.

Locally they don't like us using the cameras if stopped on a platform and would prefer us to visually check it's clear.

Passing at high speed in rain or snow completely fogs them up.

 

[43074]

Pedantically… people on here say they themselves prefer buffets to Trolleys, and make this Forum’s most common mistake in assuming that everyone else thinks like them.

To be fair I don't see how it's that controversial, on GA Norwich services or LNER there is a much better range of food and drink available from the buffets (which are well used) compared to the Rail Gourmet offering from the trolley on EMR. You don't even have to leave your seat to benefit from the buffet on LNER either now they serve at seat.

 

[800301]

Don’t GWR Use the cameras for DOO on Oxford service?

Yes but it’s not proper DOO as we are dispatched from every station with CD/RA and if the station is unstaffed we can’t serve it.

The cameras are really not that great which is quite a shame as I don’t see why they skimped on quality but then again the people paying for them don’t drive them

 

[Topological]

Put some paper bags on the trolley?

They could even include some collapsable holders to ensure the drink stays upright. All made from appropriate environmentally friendly materials of course.

Might end up adding 10p to the price though...

Perhaps East Midlands can introduce this then GWR can copy.

 

[800001]

Yes but it’s not proper DOO as we are dispatched from every station with CD/RA and if the station is unstaffed we can’t serve it.

The cameras are really not that great which is quite a shame as I don’t see why they skimped on quality but then again the people paying for them don’t drive them

Thanks for reply, I didn’t know the despatch process.

 

[TreacleMiller]

Yes but it’s not proper DOO as we are dispatched from every station with CD/RA and if the station is unstaffed we can’t serve it.

The cameras are really not that great which is quite a shame as I don’t see why they skimped on quality but then again the people paying for them don’t drive them

This. I don't underestand why the skimped either.

I was on a 717 recently and the difference was night and day.

 

[Snow1964]

Have the 810s been down specced ?

In Rock Rail East Midlands Accounts note 16 (Financial Commitments) at 31/12/21 was £332.1m but year later (without any becoming assets) had fallen to £236.7m

So big question is where did 29% of the order go, are there less trains, or simpler spec, or was price reduced

ROCK RAIL EAST MIDLANDS PLC filing history - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

ROCK RAIL EAST MIDLANDS PLC - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity

find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk

The other strange one, is in Accounts note 21, it gives ultimate controlling company as Hitachi Rail Limited and Rolling Stock Investment No 1 Ltd. So are the 810s actually staying as Hitachi owned, with Rock Rail just being a legal fronting company

 

[Tim__]

Have the 810s been down specced ?

In Rock Rail East Midlands Accounts note 16 (Financial Commitments) at 31/12/21 was £332.1m but year later (without any becoming assets) had fallen to £236.7m

So big question is where did 29% of the order go, are there less trains, or simpler spec, or was price reduced

ROCK RAIL EAST MIDLANDS PLC filing history - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

ROCK RAIL EAST MIDLANDS PLC - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity

find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk

The other strange one, is in Accounts note 21, it gives ultimate controlling company as Hitachi Rail Limited and Rolling Stock Investment No 1 Ltd. So are the 810s actually staying as Hitachi owned, with Rock Rail just being a legal fronting company

Hopefully someone who understands these documents better than me will give a more accurate update, but I assume that the reduction in commitment is because they've paid over 100m but still have 236m to pay by the time the contract is complete?

 

[AndrewJM70]

Educated guess but I would assume the 100m is a down payment. Nothing has been delivered yet so not on balance sheet.

 

[InTheEastMids]

So are the 810s actually staying as Hitachi owned, with Rock Rail just being a legal fronting company

I am not involved with rolling stock financing, but am aware how things like energy projects and certain types of commercial property investment, and the general principle is that you set things up differently for construction and operation phases.

Given it's Rock Rail East Midlands, the company almost certainly (>95% sure of this) exists solely to own the 810s. Having directors from both Hitachi and Rock Investments suggests the company ownership is split between Hitachi and Rock with other investors that Rock deals with (expect this is typically banks, pension funds).

Having Hitachi ownership makes sense at this stage, because it aligns the financial risk with the construction risk on Hitachi. Because getting trains built and into service is
riskier than operating a mature fleet (see Cl 701 thread ad nauseum), the interest rate (aka "cost of capital") that investors require for this phase of the project would be higher than during the operational phase.

So once the trains are accepted, in service and running reliably*, the 810s should generate stable cash flows from leasing payments, over what is expected to be 25y or more. So I'd be surprised if Hitachi didn't sell some/most/all of their stake in the future, and refinance the fleet with cheaper money. Investors may have pre-agreed options to buy/sell stakes ("call" and "put" options) that are triggered by project milestones, so it could be a gradual process.

*Yes, "reliably" is a pretty vague term in the context of GB rolling stock introduction, but is I'm sure rigorously defined in the contracts that underpin all this.

 

[Snow1964]

Educated guess but I would assume the 100m is a down payment. Nothing has been delivered yet so not on balance sheet.

Unless it was a non returnable deposit, would expect it as an asset, either a prepayment, or a fixed asset under construction.

Not normal for commitments to drop if haven't received some assets

 

[Stephen42]

Have the 810s been down specced ?

In Rock Rail East Midlands Accounts note 16 (Financial Commitments) at 31/12/21 was £332.1m but year later (without any becoming assets) had fallen to £236.7m

So big question is where did 29% of the order go, are there less trains, or simpler spec, or was price reduced

ROCK RAIL EAST MIDLANDS PLC filing history - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

ROCK RAIL EAST MIDLANDS PLC - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity

find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk

The other strange one, is in Accounts note 21, it gives ultimate controlling company as Hitachi Rail Limited and Rolling Stock Investment No 1 Ltd. So are the 810s actually staying as Hitachi owned, with Rock Rail just being a legal fronting company

Nope or at least not in a way that impacts the financials. The drop in commitments is £95.4 million which is as they paid £95.5 million to the manufactures (difference due to rounding) so have reduced future commitments. They recognise the amount paid as part of the tangible assets under construction in note 6.

Note 21 is that the company is owned through a chain of two holding companies. The ultimate holding company is jointly controlled by Hitachi Rail Limited and Rolling Stock Investment No 1 Ltd, that list is in alphabetical order with the latter being the one with the larger share of control.

 

[bluelagoon8951]

It's good to know. My instinct was it would be rude to interrupt the flow (of course waiting for you to finish serving someone before jumping in).

The other difficult factor is having no idea exactly where the trolley is, and traipsing down multiple carriages to find you've got the wrong end is not fun.

Which, in a rare defence of XC, something they do occasionally, but only when the train is physically too busy to push a trolley through, is a "static service". Translation: "I'm in coach F with all the snacks, good luck if you are able to fight, climb, beg, barter, or outsource your way here. May the odds be forever in your favour".

if i'm on a meridian, i'll serve from the bar if it's too busy to pull the trolley through. on a local service though... good luck. doesn't help that i'm not allowed to use the PA system. anyway, this has been getting a little off topic though

 

[Jozhua]

I made a thread a little while ago about the merits of vending machines on trains - in leau of a buffet section (which is rarely open on EMR services these days), I think a couple of vending machines would be a nice touch - possible to do hot, cold food and drink from modern units. Beer might be a challenge given age verification though.

 

[Rxstron]

Does anyone know if the motors on the 810 will be any different to the current motors used on class 80x trains? I love the sound of the current motors so I'm wondering if the 810s will sound the same or different. Cheers